44 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

What do you guys think of the current difference in laptime between GP2 and F1? Or, more particularly, between the top cars and the lower placed cars from F1 on one side, and the lower placed cars from F1 and GP2 on the other side.

I'm quite amazed by the current state of play:

We have the following stats:
Spain
- F1 pole position: 80.981s
- HRT (best): 87.809s
- Virgin (best): 87.315
- GP2 pole position: 90.473s

So the worst cars in F1 were over 6.5 seconds slower than the best cars in F1, while GP2 was less than 3 seconds slower than the back end of the grid of F1.

Turkey
- F1 pole position: 85.049s
- HRT (best): 90.692s
- Virgin (best): 90.445s
- GP2 pole position: 94.398s

So the worst cars in F1 were over 5.5 seconds slower than the best cars in F1, while GP2 was less than 4 seconds slower than the back end of the grid of F1.


I myself find the difference between GP2 and the back end of the F1 grid way too small. It seems like the only thing that separates these cars in terms of performance is the engine!

GP2 should be a step below F1, with drivers coming from GP2 to F1 still being amazed by the speed/grip of these cars. But atm the step is pretty non-existent. Put a GP2 driver in a Virgin or HRT, and they would barely notice the difference, but put a Virgin or HRT driver in a Red Bull, they would be blown off their socks.

Imo, that's not how it should be. Either GP2 has to reduce its speed, or the 107% rule in F1 has to be sharpened, getting rid of cars that are so slow.


PS. I don't know what tyres GP2 uses at the races compared to F1. Whether they run the same compounds at the races or not.

[F.M.]

Also a quote from Webber from today's PC:

It’s a bit of a dangerous game with that (the hard) tyre because, particularly if McLarens and Red Bulls want to put an option on in Q1, then we send maybe two or three teams home so that’s maybe not ideal for some people. So we need to keep an eye on that. And also, we need to be careful in Formula One with our long run pace that we don’t get too close to the other categories in terms of lap times. We still need to be (the) pinnacle, we need to be able to push the cars to the limit throughout a grand prix and have very strong lap times in grands prix, man against the machine, and push the car to the limit. So as long as we can keep doing that then that’s good, but I (don’t) think the long runs on Friday were particularly impressive for a Formula One car round here. If you look at a GP3 lap time, I think they did a 1m 38s and some of my laps at the end of my long run were 1m 30s, so eight seconds, and I think the budget’s a little bit different. We need to keep an eye on that.

[King Six]

If it wasn't for DRS the laptimes would be much, much closer. The fact that Pirelli have had to develop a exactly the same spec tyres for F1 and GP2 doesn't help either. I've never been a fan of GP2 being so close to F1, in every way, now the cars look the same too with the hole post-09 theme.

Plus it's boring and mundane seeing all the drivers with the same GP2 driving styles and careers going into F1.

We need more Di Resta's, coming in as DTM champions and such.

They say F1 cars are going to be 5 seconds slower from 2013 onwards. Yeah, they'll actually have to go back to GP2 and slow them down just to save face and avoid embarrassment, but really it's already happened I guess.

Like I said before, I think a major reason they allow unlimited DRS during qualifying is to avoid embarrassment. I also wonder what the comparison will be like between Indycars and F1 cars come 2013.

Personally I think Bernie and this whole GP crap can go ahead and make a GP1 and GP2, and let someone else have a real F1. Never liked GP2 and never will. Just the whole idea....the whole Bernie connection, it's really......I can't think of the word precisely.

Edited by King Six, 21 May 2011 - 16:03.

[scheivlak]

There's nothing wrong with GP2.

It's just that Virgin and HRT are hopeless. Six seconds or so off the pace is not what it should be.

[Enzoluis]

Sorry, but the problem are not the tires. Or at least, F1 do not want be faster because of high technology tires. If F1 want to be the fastest series by a big margine, F1 should unfreeze engines, free tests, increase the number of engines and gearboxes allowed.
That will be F1 technology not bring back Bridgestones.

[pingu666]

whats the gap race pace wise? theres been a big gap this year..

[Fastcake]

Personally I think Bernie and this whole GP crap can go ahead and make a GP1 and GP2, and let someone else have a real F1. Never liked GP2 and never will. Just the whole idea....the whole Bernie connection, it's really......I can't think of the word precisely.

Why? GP2 is solely designed to be the feeder series for Formula One, the cars are meant to be similar handling and close in the lap times. If the cars were nowhere near F1 then there is no point of having it as F1's training programme, a job it does good enough.

[AlexS]

It’s a bit of a dangerous game with that (the hard) tyre because, particularly if McLarens and Red Bulls want to put an option on in Q1, then we send maybe two or three teams home so that’s maybe not ideal for some people. So we need to keep an eye on that. And also, we need to be careful in Formula One with our long run pace that we don’t get too close to the other categories in terms of lap times. We still need to be (the) pinnacle, we need to be able to push the cars to the limit throughout a grand prix and have very strong lap times in grands prix, man against the machine, and push the car to the limit. So as long as we can keep doing that then that’s good, but I (don’t) think the long runs on Friday were particularly impressive for a Formula One car round here. If you look at a GP3 lap time, I think they did a 1m 38s and some of my laps at the end of my long run were 1m 30s, so eight seconds, and I think the budget’s a little bit different. We need to keep an eye on that.

Mark Webber for FIA President!

[King Six]

I think now is very much a good time for someone to restart something like A1 or something else and easily build cars, even if they're spec cars/series, that trounce the current F1 cars. Well, especially from 2013 onwards...with no ground effects, cars with engines of around 600hp and limited KERS that offers 120hp for a short period of time...

Oh wait, think I've come full circle with the whole breakaway thing...

[King Six]

Why? GP2 is solely designed to be the feeder series for Formula One, the cars are meant to be similar handling and close in the lap times. If the cars were nowhere near F1 then there is no point of having it as F1's training programme, a job it does good enough.

Exactly, why should there be a the feeder series for F1. It just creates an entirely mundane path with little variation. It devalues F1 in my opinion too. Especially when the cars look the same and have the exact same tyres. Practically the only difference is the engine and a few aero improvements.

[Brandz07]

Exactly, why should there be a the feeder series for F1. It just creates an entirely mundane path with little variation. It devalues F1 in my opinion too. Especially when the cars look the same and have the exact same tyres. Practically the only difference is the engine and a few aero improvements.

a few aero improvements?....

[primer]

F1 is constrained by the rules. Slacken them up and watch the time gap to GP2 increase. But faster F1 cars won't necessarily make for better racing.

[pingu666]

nearly all top series have a ladder system, in recent years theres been a bunch of complaints about the mass of junior catagories in europe :/

[ImDDAA]

Also a quote from Webber from today's PC:

It’s a bit of a dangerous game with that (the hard) tyre because, particularly if McLarens and Red Bulls want to put an option on in Q1, then we send maybe two or three teams home so that’s maybe not ideal for some people. So we need to keep an eye on that. And also, we need to be careful in Formula One with our long run pace that we don’t get too close to the other categories in terms of lap times. We still need to be (the) pinnacle, we need to be able to push the cars to the limit throughout a grand prix and have very strong lap times in grands prix, man against the machine, and push the car to the limit. So as long as we can keep doing that then that’s good, but I (don’t) think the long runs on Friday were particularly impressive for a Formula One car round here. If you look at a GP3 lap time, I think they did a 1m 38s and some of my laps at the end of my long run were 1m 30s, so eight seconds, and I think the budget’s a little bit different. We need to keep an eye on that.

I completely agree.

[Fastcake]

Exactly, why should there be a the feeder series for F1. It just creates an entirely mundane path with little variation. It devalues F1 in my opinion too. Especially when the cars look the same and have the exact same tyres. Practically the only difference is the engine and a few aero improvements.

Because having one main path into F1 gives all drivers in the series a place in the spotlight, and allows them to compete against each other in a competitive series. It defeats the problem below GP2, where you have multiple lower formulae all competing against each other, giving lower quality grids as the resources are spread out, and the championship leaders are mainly set against the no-hopers. The cars look the same because they are designed to be, essentially, slower F1 cars, so it gives drivers the experience.

[Willow Rosenberg]

Actually between a RB, HRT and GP2 I imagine the Hispania would be hardest to drive. Vettel would get quite a shock if he ever had to drive one.

[Sausage]

If they wanted they could put in stronger engines that would make F1 10/20 seconds quicker, but it's all just a regulation game anyway.

[noikeee]

There's nothing wrong with GP2.

It's just that Virgin and HRT are hopeless. Six seconds or so off the pace is not what it should be.

I agree. I have no idea what happened, but the difference between the front and the back of the pack, even excluding the 3 younger teams, has increased in a brutal way since the new aero rules in 2009.

In 2007 and 2008 we often had the pack covered by 2 or 2.5 seconds, now it's more like 6 or 7.

[SCUDmissile]

yeah. effectively the HRTs and Virgins are GP2 cars. and because of the costs constraints, it is going to belike this from now on, actually even worse when we get to 2013.

[george1981]

As well as having lower power, GP2 engines are also 4 litres and I would expect weigh a lot more than F1 engines.
How fast would a GP2 car be if it were re-designed to accomodate an F1 engine? Not a full redesign just enough to accomodate the engine and shift a bit of weight around to balance the car.

[P123]

As well as having lower power, GP2 engines are also 4 litres and I would expect weigh a lot more than F1 engines.
How fast would a GP2 car be if it were re-designed to accomodate an F1 engine? Not a full redesign just enough to accomodate the engine and shift a bit of weight around to balance the car.

Still not faster than a back of the grid F1 car. Remember, the GP2 cars are made by Dallara, and loosely modelled on their duff HRT F1 car.

[Fastcake]

I agree. I have no idea what happened, but the difference between the front and the back of the pack, even excluding the 3 younger teams, has increased in a brutal way since the new aero rules in 2009.

In 2007 and 2008 we often had the pack covered by 2 or 2.5 seconds, now it's more like 6 or 7.

You're forgetting that in 2009 we had some of the closest grids ever, with top to bottom separated by less than a second at times. It's only as the teams got to grips with the regs, and the bigger ones pulled away, the gap opened up again. Excluding the new teams the gap is similar, and eventually the newbies will be on the pace. (Lotus are close already..)

[shunt]

You're forgetting that in 2009 we had some of the closest grids ever, with top to bottom separated by less than a second at times. It's only as the teams got to grips with the regs, and the bigger ones pulled away, the gap opened up again. Excluding the new teams the gap is similar, and eventually the newbies will be on the pace. (Lotus are close already..)

The best F1 car to the best GP2 car was 10 seconds difference. That's quite a long time really

[ivanalesi]

I think GP2 must get faster, 10 secs off the F1 pace is a huge difference when you want to prepare F1 drivers. But before criticizing Virgin/Marussia & HRT, we have to take into account that they thought there was going to be a budget cap. RRA is far from this and only 3 teams are reaching the full limitations of it, the rest are much smaller as we can see by the results.

[rhukkas]

I think GP2 must get faster, 10 secs off the F1 pace is a huge difference when you want to prepare F1 drivers.

Kimi and Vettel never did GP2 or equivalent before they entered F1. it's a red herring this 'preparing for F1'... it's only there so teams can extract maximum money out of gullible drivers. And at £2,000,000 a year it certainly fools some.

Edited by rhukkas, 24 May 2011 - 07:54.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Vettel did world series and a fair bit of F1 testing.

Who was the last guy to come in not having done WSR or GP2? Sutil? And he bought his ride...

Di Resta of course came out of DTM, but that's a completely different argument.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 24 May 2011 - 07:57.

[rhukkas]

Vettel did world series and a fair bit of F1 testing.

Who was the last guy to come in not having done WSR or GP2? Sutil? And he bought his ride...

Di Resta of course came out of DTM, but that's a completely different argument.

Fact remains GP2 is not a necessity to prepare drivers for F1. It's very expensive and fast... but not necessarily the bets training ground. Remove Hamilton and how many GP2 drivers have actually won an F1 GP.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How many drivers other than Hamilton have won an F1 race since GP2 started?

You won't get into F1 these days without doing WSR or GP2.

[Jackman]

Kimi and Vettel never did GP2 or equivalent before they entered F1. it's a red herring this 'preparing for F1'... it's only there so teams can extract maximum money out of gullible drivers. And at £2,000,000 a year it certainly fools some.

Nobody is paying £2 million to drive in GP2. Not even Herck.

[rhukkas]

Nobody is paying £2 million to drive in GP2. Not even Herck.

LOL I think you need to double check how mcuh top teams charge in GP2. The overall spend of a driver is in the £2,000,000 range

[Jackman]

I'd suggest I'm a bit closer to knowing the truth on that one.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'd say closer to 2million Euros, but it's still a lot.

People tend to quote fee to team, but that won't include the ridiculous amount of support costs you need to be competitive.

[rhukkas]

I'd suggest I'm a bit closer to knowing the truth on that one.

I'd suggest you're probably not.

Everyone knows someone who's involved in or around GP2 and the spend is somewhere near £2,000,000. When you tot up how much it costs to put a human being in a competitive GP2 car with an adequate training program its around the £2,000,000 mark. Christ, people spend £250,000 just doing go-kart racing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'll sign off on 2million euros as a top end figure for Main series + Asia + expenses + extra junk, but 2million quid is getting into internet hyperbole creep.

[rr0cket]

IDK, from the front of GP2 to the front of F1 we are talking over 3 seconds a sector, that's quite a huge gap.

[rhukkas]

I'll sign off on 2million euros as a top end figure for Main series + Asia + expenses + extra junk, but 2million quid is getting into internet hyperbole creep.

It really isn't.

[ezequiel]

It's not such a bad situation. I guess many people got used to very small gaps between the front and the back of the grid in F1, which was something particualr from the last years prior to the radical aero changes, but, in the modern F1 era, it has not been the rule, definitely. Just look what happened in the 90s: the gaps were at least as big as they are now (sometimes a little bigger, sometimes a little smaller). And at least during some seasons I think I can recall F3000 top cars also being only 10 seconds of the pace of the top F1 cars.

[Jackman]

It really isn't.

And how do you know that, exactly?

[4MEN]

If you consider the budgets, the difference in time is not enough, IMO. I think, too, that the 107% rule should be more restrictive. Hispania and Virgin are not F1 but F1.5

[ivanalesi]

The GP2 car is designed w/o any rules restrictions, it's not really this hard to design a car that's about 10 sec off F1 pace. It's hard to design a car as fast as possible within certain regulations, like F1. Dallara can design a car that is 5 sec faster than F1, but then the driver dads will receive a pile of crash bills after the first collective test:)

[John Player]

If you consider the budgets, the difference in time is not enough, IMO. I think, too, that the 107% rule should be more restrictive. Hispania and Virgin are not F1 but F1.5

More like F0,5

[V8 Fireworks]

getting rid of cars that are so slow.

The rules HAVE to be made slow, because Ferrari and Red Bull will develop the heck out of them. $300m per season spent for 15 seasons in a row by Ferrari buys speed. Of course Virgin did not enter F1 with a 90 hp ladder chassis car as their competitors like Mercedes and Renault used to compete in the earliest motor races and aren't slowing catching up the technology ladder (like say Asberjistan's first hypothetical entry to the space race which would be forceably a simple rocket with no payload for example due to the economic and technology barriers). It does not matter that Virgin can see and try to copy the latest Ferrari ideas, their car will still be inferior.

Give rules that will make an underdeveloped Virgin

[Birelman]

10 seconds off the Formula 1 pole not enough of a gap for yah? geez

[F.M.]

So far, both HRT drivers haven't managed to lap Monaco as quickly as the GP2 cars

[Kubiccia]

Imo, they should create spec tunnels for the underbody and let the other underbody parts free for design.

This would make F1 cars depend much more on the ground effect rather than on the wings, even if those are kept the way they are.

F1 should always seek for the fastest and not to slow down the laptime by 5 seconds.

FIA is just riciculous.