Jump to content


Photo

What would you do to improve safety at the Nouvelle Chicane?


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 notguilty56

notguilty56
  • Member

  • 1,759 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:33

We all had goosebumps yesterday after those Rosberg and Pérez terrible crashes on their way out of the tunnel against the Nouvelle chicane barriers.
It seems that along the years that is the most dangerous spot of the track. Lorenzo Baldini died there in 1967 and many other drivers, since then, have had their share of life risk.
IMO, the main problem is that the bumpy track goes downhill after the tunnel, just when you need to hard braking. Cars get to 290 km/h there and any minor error or incident makes the whole weight of the car moves forward, sending you against the barriers without any control. So I'd try to reduce the slope of the track at that point, moving it towards a slower point. (I know, easy to say :| ).

What's your opinion on that issue?



Advertisement

#2 Augurk

Augurk
  • Member

  • 5,628 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:35

notguilty56, on May 29 2011, 12:33, said:

We all had goosebumps yesterday after those Rosberg and Pérez terrible crashes on their way out of the tunnel against the Nouvelle chicane barriers.
It seems that along the years that is the most dangerous spot of the track. Lorenzo Baldini died there in 1967 and many other drivers, since then, have had their share of life risk.
IMO, the main problem is that the bumpy track goes downhill after the tunnel, just when you need to hard braking. Cars get to 290 km/h there and any minor error or incident makes the whole weight of the car moves forward, sending you against the barriers without any control. So I'd try to reduce the slope of the track at that point, moving it towards a slower point. (I know, easy to say :| ).

What's your opinion on that issue?

Let's just do it the FIA way and add a chicane in the tunnel.

#3 Nasty McBastard

Nasty McBastard
  • Member

  • 5,977 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:36

Yo dawg. I heard you liked chicanes.....

#4 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:37

Minimum wet race ride height cheapest simplest and could have been put in place yesterday at the drop of a hat

Longer term just move the race somehwere else, Monaco is the most boring race of the year

#5 jee

jee
  • Member

  • 1,332 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:38

Change the barrier to like it was in 96/97, drivers may cry that they cannot cut the chicane anymore.

Edit: Or move the chicane to just before tabac.

Edited by jee, 29 May 2011 - 10:38.


#6 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 3,143 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:38

Having given this some thought over the last day I would say the main priority is to change the 'crash' area. At the moment if a driver loses the car going in to the chicane he is facing a barrier at a 90 degree angle - he's either smacking head into it or sideways, as we saw with Jenson 8 years ago. So I would say an angled barrier to guide the car and help dissipate its speed.

I've thought about the track itself and you're right, the problem is the track slopes downhill so the car goes light at the rear AND its bumpy. I don't know he feasible it is to smooth out the bump.

But... and I don't want to sound flippant... these little foibles are part of Monacos charm and I actually wouldn't want to see the track changed at all because of these accidents. I'd much prefer changes to the run off area and barriers to better manage any crashes that do occur there.

#7 Ruf

Ruf
  • Member

  • 1,283 posts
  • Joined: July 06

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:41

Stormsky68, on May 29 2011, 13:37, said:

Longer term just move the race somehwere else, Monaco is the most boring race of the year

This is the most ridiculous F1 related thing I've heard lately. Monaco GP is the only race left tha still has something to do with racing and skill, not tires lottery and rule changes designed to improve the "entertainment".


#8 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Member

  • 7,911 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:42

Wouldn't change anything. If it was safe enough at the beginning of qualifying, it's safe enough now. Accidents happen.

#9 TURU

TURU
  • Member

  • 2,786 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:42

Augurk, on May 29 2011, 12:35, said:

Let's just do it the FIA way and add a chicane in the tunnel.


Chicane in the tunnel ?? Now, that would be a massive crash in confined space waiting to happen. Someone tell the FIA :lol:

#10 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 52,785 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:44

PayasYouRace, on May 29 2011, 12:29, said:

Perhaps the better option would be something like this:



The angled barrier than many have suggested but going the other way so that a car having an accident will be funnelled down the excape road and not onto the track. The end of the wall is hidden by the apex of the chicane so no one can hit it faster than they would normally go through the chicane. Bonus features include not having to remove even more trees* and it will stop drivers from cutting the chicane.

*Edit: Remember that they moved the barrier back after Jenson's crash. It used to be at the final part of the chicane. Now it's some way along the straight and obviously they removed some of the trees to make that possible.


What I suggested in the Perez crash thread.

#11 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 52,785 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:46

jee, on May 29 2011, 12:38, said:

Change the barrier to like it was in 96/97, drivers may cry that they cannot cut the chicane anymore.


The 96/97 layout still featured a barrier at right angles to the track. It just extended all the way across the chicane. It would have to be at a smaller angle to the track.

#12 notguilty56

notguilty56
  • Member

  • 1,759 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:47

jee, on May 29 2011, 12:38, said:

Edit: Or move the chicane to just before tabac.


This could be a good idea. It would solve the downhill braking issue and, as a solution, is not that strange :D

#13 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:48

Stop crashing maybe.

We need to stop confusing danger and difficulty. I have no problem with people wrecking F1 cars. Spectacularly and frequently. As long as the crashes don't injure, I don't see a problem. They'll need to look at what caused Perez's (relatively)minor injuries and see what fixes if any can be made. But there's a fundamental level where if you have a high speed crash on a street circuit it's gonna hurt a little.



#14 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:48

Perez had a terrible crash yesterday and he came away with minor injuries.

Racing has always been dangerous but F1 is safer than ever, Monaco is one of the few extreme driver challenges left, personally I think it should be kept that way - there may be an argument for ride heights and other things but I wouldn't fundamentally change the track.

#15 Desdirodeabike

Desdirodeabike
  • Member

  • 1,957 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:51

I would not do anything except fix the bumps in the braking area. Do that and it should be fine.

Although I have to say that PayasYouRace's suggestion is a very good one.

#16 TURU

TURU
  • Member

  • 2,786 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:57

Stormsky68, on May 29 2011, 12:37, said:

Longer term just move the race somehwere else, Monaco is the most boring race of the year


It's THE most exciting race of the year. Not because of pure entertaining value though, but because of incredible skill, bravery and general madness of driving these beasts through narrow, bumpy, public streets, in the middle of that blazingly beautiful place called Monaco. I could watch these cars travelling 200kph, millimeters from concrete walls endlessly and never get bored. I guess it all depends on what you watch F1 for. If someone watches for the so called entertaining value, then he/she will find Monaco boring as hell .... but hey, I dislike NASCAR for a reason. :wave:

#17 Ruf

Ruf
  • Member

  • 1,283 posts
  • Joined: July 06

Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:58

Desdirodeabike, on May 29 2011, 13:51, said:

I would not do anything except fix the bumps in the braking area. Do that and it should be fine.

Although I have to say that PayasYouRace's suggestion is a very good one.

You two guys do realise that Monaco is not on a flat field, like Silverstone for example, don't you. I'd like to point that Payasyourace's layout is impossible, because to the left of the track is the Mediteraneean sea (ok, there's a 10-20 feet wide quay, some 100 feet below) and to the right is a mountain.

#18 domhnall

domhnall
  • Member

  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:00

Simple question (may have been asked already so apologies if so). Why is there a barrier there in the first place. Is there a footpath or something that divides the two roads on the exit of the chicane.

Thought the crash wasn't so bad yesterday, big hit but the barriers looked like they did a good job (and i guess they did seeing as he's fine. Although maybe I'm being complacent.

#19 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 52,785 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:02

Ruf, on May 29 2011, 12:58, said:

You two guys do realise that Monaco is not on a flat field, like Silverstone for example, don't you. I'd like to point that Payasyourace's layout is impossible, because to the left of the track is the Mediteraneean sea (ok, there's a 10-20 feet wide quay, some 100 feet below) and to the right is a mountain.


My layout is not impossible. The only change I made is a barrier in the middle of the chicane.

I'll add that the whole section from Tabac to Rascasse and the currect chicane was once water, so it's not difficult to reclaim a bit of land.

And it is nothing like 100 feet above sea level. More like 10 at most.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 29 May 2011 - 11:13.


Advertisement

#20 Ruf

Ruf
  • Member

  • 1,283 posts
  • Joined: July 06

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:06

domhnall, on May 29 2011, 14:00, said:

Simple question (may have been asked already so apologies if so). Why is there a barrier there in the first place. Is there a footpath or something that divides the two roads on the exit of the chicane.

Not footpath. Buildings.


#21 domhnall

domhnall
  • Member

  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:11

Ruf, on May 29 2011, 12:06, said:

Not footpath. Buildings.


Just looking at this picture;

http://fr.academic.r...Monaco_2004.jpg

Seems there's just a row of trees that the barrier is shielding, so just chop the trees down and push the barrier back?? Or am I am missing something, cause that seems a little too easy.

Edited by domhnall, 29 May 2011 - 11:13.


#22 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 52,785 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:12

Ruf, on May 29 2011, 13:06, said:

Not footpath. Buildings.


Not buildings. Trees. Ruf, do you even know what the track looks like?

#23 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:15

domhnall, on May 29 2011, 07:11, said:

just chop the trees


Not gonna happen.

#24 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Member

  • 7,911 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:18

Truthfully, I see no reason why you might as well not change that particularly barrier to one where anyone going off has a shallower angle to hit at - the problem is the idea that tracks need to be changed after every accident. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a fan and an outside observer, it hardly ruins the spectacle to have the barrier at the chicane be unsafe.

The problem is never the single action of making a part of the track safer, but the snowball effect. Where does it stop? However noble trying to make racing safer is, there is no line in the sand, no point we can all comfortably agree 'it's safe enough'. Some of us reckon it's safe enough as it is right now, and some of us think we're still decades away.

Personally, I have a hard time supporting the breed of race fans that think tracks need to be changed after every even remotely serious accident - it's racing. It will never be totally safe, and in some sense, never should be. I don't want to see a driver hurt, but I also don't want to see chicanes - the cancer of the racing world - hanging off of every track in the world today like tumors every time a driver (who doesn't have to be a racing driver) has an accident there. I sometimes wonder if the average racing fan really has a grasp of the danger. Accidents happen, and tracks are only as dangerous as the drivers make them. It's racing. We'll see seemingly minor accidents be serious or fatal, and we'll see drivers walk away from apparently awful crashes. F1 is a series like any other - sooner or later, we'll see another driver die. That may not happen for twenty years, or it may happen an hour from now. For a while yesterday, many of us thought Sergio Perez was the latest name to be added to the list. It is what it is. No driver to be seriously injured or die in an accident could ever be said to have got what he deserved, but there is a point - and all drivers at a professional level are past it - where they can have no complaints. It's a dangerous sport, and there are plenty of safe ones to play.

I've got no problems with changes to tracks in and of themselves, I just wonder where the people pushing for these changes expect it to end, and when - if ever - do we draw a line under it all and say 'We've done what we can. There's risk in racing, the worst is always possible and that's just how it is'. Why fight battles that cannot be won? If there is no place where we can stand, plant the flag in the ground and say 'This is it, we're here', then what's the point? No one wants to see drivers hurt, but it happens, and it's hardly unfair that racing drivers need to pay the consequences for their actions like the rest of us.

But who really knows.

Edited by andrew., 29 May 2011 - 11:20.


#25 shunt

shunt
  • Member

  • 160 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:21

Slowinfastout, on May 29 2011, 11:15, said:

Not gonna happen.


Why even bother posting? Who are you? The prince of Monaco?

#26 domhnall

domhnall
  • Member

  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:22

Slowinfastout, on May 29 2011, 12:15, said:

Not gonna happen.


Ok, how about chopping the trees down, planting a million new ones in the amazon and cycling everywhere for the next 5 years??  ;)

#27 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:22

shunt, on May 29 2011, 07:21, said:

Why even bother posting? Who are you? The prince of Monaco?


I'm a tree hugger, obviously.

#28 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:24

Nothing. The teams and drivers need to take more account of the bump it with their setups and driving.

#29 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:25

Ruf, on May 29 2011, 11:41, said:

This is the most ridiculous F1 related thing I've heard lately. Monaco GP is the only race left tha still has something to do with racing and skill, not tires lottery and rule changes designed to improve the "entertainment".


Sorry Monaco has very little to do with racing

Its about the location, the money, the business.

The racing in pure sporting terms is complete garbage.


Raise the ride height problem solved.

Edited by Stormsky68, 29 May 2011 - 11:28.


#30 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:29

Keeping the thing away from the rails for 305 kms at insane speeds has it's charms, too.

IMO it's a relief that the F1 can more or less still put on a race there, it kinda prevents things getting out of hand in a ****ed up way. (I mean you still need a car that'll need to be able to tackle Monaco, and not just Tilkedromes. This has an effect on rule making and car design, to an ever so small extent..)

Edited by Slowinfastout, 29 May 2011 - 11:40.


#31 Les

Les
  • Member

  • 2,116 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:41

Making the barrier shallower is an idea to consider as it would stop big accidents like yesterday. The other side of the coin is that it would close off the escape road and it might push crashed cars back onto the track so I'm not sure how possible that is.

#32 BenettonB192

BenettonB192
  • Member

  • 869 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:43

They could have the wall on the right when you come out of the tunnel extend at an angle to the problematic place so that when drivers crash they deflec t and not just hit something frontal or sideways. Obviously they would have to close that side road for that but instead they could make an opening after the chicane.

#33 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 52,785 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:52

Les and BenettonB192, see my suggestion.