38 replies to this topic

[harrys]

I think Vettel gained an unfair advantage today. Allowing drivers to make changes to the car, especially to change the tyres penalizes those who have already stopped.

Surely we have to account for the fact that making these changes under racing conditions involves time lost in the pits. Why should some teams get a free pitstop?

It's completely different from a safety car situation.

[Reverend]

Its the rules deal with it, they all had the same option to change tyres

[Augurk]

Its the rules deal with it, they all had the same option to change tyres

But this compromised certain strategies and rewarded others. The rules are supposed to be neutral.

[ViMaMo]

They allowed changes for everybody, they wanted it to be entertaining last few laps perhaps?

[ClubmanGT]

Parc ferme rules. Teams shouldn't have MORE freedom than they do before the start of the race proper.

[HAM]

NO, only when it rains.

FIA answer: YES, we always want to destroy the excitement of a fair racewin.

[jonnoj]

Who cares, it's not something that happens every year. They only restarted the race because last years race ended behind a SC.

[F1ultimate]

Parc ferme rules.

Thank you.

[Wouter]

Yes, they should be allowed to make changes. That is what allows damaged cars, such as Hamilton's, to make the restart and the more cars, the merrier. It also avoids the presence of borderline unsafe cars (due to damage or shot tyres or even threewheelers like Sutil's car here) at the restart.

[DanardiF1]

Its the rules deal with it, they all had the same option to change tyres

but that option denied others the chance to take advantage of circumstances they had worked for, giving the leader a free pass to a win he was in danger of losing before the SC/Red flag.

[harrys]

Option 3 covers rain. If it rains then everyone is moved back and so the running order isn't changed. unless someone wants to take a risk and run on a dry weather tyre and keep grid position.

I'm a fan of vettel, he's clearly enormously talented and the quickest guy out there. But I don't think he would have held on for another 6 laps with such old tyres.

[HAM]

Option 3 covers rain. If it rains then everyone is moved back and so the running order isn't changed. unless someone wants to take a risk and run on a dry weather tyre and keep grid position.

I'm a fan of vettel, he's clearly enormously talented and the quickest guy out there. But I don't think he would have held on for another 6 laps with such old tyres.

Let me guess, you were a Schumi fan in the past and when you become a Sebi fan, let me guess too since 2010. Lol.

[Watkins74]

If you can work on your car it seems odd they just didn't stop them at the end of pit lane and then everything wouldn't have to be dragged so far.

[jpmontoya_fan]

NO, only when it rains.

FIA answer: YES, we always want to destroy the excitement of a fair racewin.

I agree. FIA just handed the victory to Vettel more easily with that tyre change.

[ultrapro]

The purpose of a stop/start or a SC should be to allow the track to be made safe with the minimum of impact on the outcome of the race. In an ideal world the race director would hit pause and all the cars would freeze while a mess is cleared up. Clearly this isn't practically possible but a rule that allows you to change tyres or make any other changes to the car seems to allow an unnecessary influence on the race outcome.

[Dunder]

It is a strange rule and I don't understand why it is there.
I don't think you should be able to make changes, no.

Vettel and Hamilton were the biggest gainers from it today.
Button and maybe Alonso lost out.

[F1EC]

I think that if anyone's incurred damage as a result of the incident that caused the red flag, then they should be allowed to fix it on the grid. Because they're not allowed to do so in the pitlane.

I don't think tyres should be changed.

[Sausage]

I think yes cause how often does a red flag come out to interupt a race? One of the cars might be involved in bringing out the red like Hamilton (without fault), so you could have shred tires as well. To discriminate between wet or not would be a silly thing since it might be dry/wet at some races. RB hadn't planned it like this anyway, it's just a good amount of luck you sometimes get in sports.

[Wouter]

I think that if anyone's incurred damage as a result of the incident that caused the red flag, then they should be allowed to fix it on the grid. Because they're not allowed to do so in the pitlane.

I don't think tyres should be changed.

So Sutil has to start on 3 tyres? Or do you count that as "damage"? Strictly speaking, his car was fine and all he needed was a tyrechange.

[Wuzak]

I think that if anyone's incurred damage as a result of the incident that caused the red flag, then they should be allowed to fix it on the grid. Because they're not allowed to do so in the pitlane.

I don't think tyres should be changed.

I think damaged cars should only be repaired in pitlane, and only after the restart.

Hamilton was going to retire before the red flag came out. That is because of the length of time it takes to repair the rear wing. Why allow hm the extra time needed to repair the car for free?

[Wuzak]

So Sutil has to start on 3 tyres? Or do you count that as "damage"? Strictly speaking, his car was fine and all he needed was a tyrechange.

Didn't he pit immediately after the incident, and get new tyres? He surely didn't do the 3 or 4 laps under safety car with 3 tyres?

[dutchie]

Regardless of who won, I thought it was ridiculous teams were allowed to make so many changes during a red flag.

[MinT]

I think given the importance of the to the race resulkts this season - they should not be allowed to change tyres during a red flag

[ensign14]

The red flag is meant to suspend the race. So the race is meant to be null. If anyone does anything to any car, they're taking advantage of the null space. Nothing should be allowed; the old rule about having aggregate times should also be brought back.

[Umpire]

They should, remember most often a red flag may be caused by first corner carnage or big crashes. If the interruption is long enough for repairs to be carried out, I see no reason not to do this.

People bitch about being able to put new tyres or repair a rear wing.........may I remind you that about 10 years ago they could jump into their spare car after a red flag.

Edited by Umpire, 29 May 2011 - 15:37.

[Lights]

Obviously not.

[Group B]

The red flag is meant to suspend the race. So the race is meant to be null. If anyone does anything to any car, they're taking advantage of the null space. Nothing should be allowed; the old rule about having aggregate times should also be brought back.

Weird rule; seems to contradict so many others, both written and unwritten.

[ensign14]

They should, remember most often a red flag may be caused by first corner carnage or big crashes. If the interruption is long enough for repairs to be carried out, I see no reason not to do this.

But after a first corner crash the race starts afresh. So the original start is scrubbed. That's a different scenario to a red after 20 laps, for example.

[Risil]

In the Daytona 200 this year, the winning rider had an entire engine change on his Ducati during a red flag period. That was controversial too, given the (as it turned out well-founded) received wisdom that a Ducati 848 couldn't last a two-hundred-miler.

[hmm]

I think the reasoning of allowing changes to the cars is that red flag situations are caused by large accidents and it is likely that many cars have driven over debris, having possible cuts in their tires or other damage to their car.

So, it would be sensible to allow to fix these in such situation. It would be impossible to control what damage was caused in that situation so the easiest solution would be to allow everyone to fix.

I don't see this rule any more of a problem than the safety car. That also gives unfair advantage to some cars.

[Cenotaph]

But this compromised certain strategies and rewarded others. The rules are supposed to be neutral.

so do safety car periods. it's just the way it is

[Flux]

In this situation, it would've been better to repair damage (Hamilton's rear wing, especially since the crash wasn't his fault), but to allow damage to be repaired, and not tyres changed seems a bit silly since damage repair would take longer.

And since changing tyres ruined the climax of the race, it makes sense to not allow them to change. Except if it's red flagged because of rain, obviously.

[RockyRaccoon68]

I know it's the same for everyone, but in a way allowing car changes just completely nullifies the 72 laps that had already been run. What we basically ended up watching was a 72 lap qualifying session and a 6 lap race, and it shouldn't be that way IMO.

That said I don't want to take anything away from Vettel's win today, the top three all drove incredibly. The standard of driving in F1 is fantastic at the moment.

[August]

Option 3 covers rain. If it rains then everyone is moved back and so the running order isn't changed. unless someone wants to take a risk and run on a dry weather tyre and keep grid position.

I'm a fan of vettel, he's clearly enormously talented and the quickest guy out there. But I don't think he would have held on for another 6 laps with such old tyres.

I disagree. Fred and Jens didn't have a proper chance to overtake before restart, and I think they wouldn't have had a chance on the last six laps.

[joshb]

Do i think they should be allowed to do any changes? No
Do i think we were robbed of a truly epic finish? Probably Yes
Do i think Vettel would have held on? Probably Yes

Have to say, i know 2 cars were wrecked but if this was a GP2 race, there would've bveen 6 or 67 cars out. Supreme driving for most of the drivers.
How the hell did Vettel not run into someone or get hit from behind??? some of these guys are really superb drivers.

[HP]

This is a rule that made a lot of sense in the past, when most red flags were thrown after a start accident, and you had a lot of drivers hoping into the spare car, a lot of debris to be put away. And in that context the rule still makes sense today, where the teams only option is to repair a car in case a race gets aborted at the start.

Times have changed, and today the rules seemed to be suboptimal suited to what happened on track.
The FiA IMO should reevaluate this rule. But with a broader outlook than presented in this thread.

[BRK]

No, in my opinion.

But I think there has to be a rule for this sort of thing, set in stone, not a case of teams requesting permission and being randomly allowed to make changes on a case by case basis. Strictly limit it to repairing damage on a car, ban everything else.

Button was the biggest loser as a result of the tyre changes, today, he was much quicker than the two in front and would have passed at least the Ferrari easily had they all continued on the same tyres. That would have dented Alonso's charge on Vettel so SV wasn't the one to gain the most.

Edited by BRK, 29 May 2011 - 17:10.

[DanardiF1]

I disagree. Fred and Jens didn't have a proper chance to overtake before restart, and I think they wouldn't have had a chance on the last six laps.

But the rules took away any chance of finding out. Perhaps Vettel's tyres were about to go...

[HP]

Button was the biggest loser as a result of the tyre changes, today, he was much quicker than the two in front and would have passed at least the Ferrari easily had they all continued on the same tyres.

Button said in hindsight he picked they picked the wrong tires, so he was smart enough to start looking at what he and his team could have done better, instead of pondering about things that won't be changed overnight. Smart move by Jenson Button. I'm sure he learned from this incident, and it will show in future. I seldom praise Button, but he seems to have become one class act.