41 replies to this topic

[mariner]

Last year I posted a couple of shots taken in the Morgan factory in quaint old Malvern GB. I liked the visit so much I went again with a better camera

This is the new but retro Morgan three wheeler, it has a 5 speed Mazda g/box and rear wheel drive. It can get round most UK homologation laws by being a motorbike/threewheeler.




It uses a V twin from an American company S&S - 1.9 litres no less, it must go chug ( 100 metres) chug ( 100 metres)



For the secret woodworkers among you here is the ash frame of the three wheeler



At the other end of the product line the Aero which is a aluninium sheet frame with a 4.8 litre BMW V 8 ( 385 bhp) and, usually, a BMW 8 speed auto. It weighs about 1200kg so is quick.

The chassis



Front end bare and fully bulit up







The finished product after the carpenters put all the wooden frames on, the wings/fenders are one peice to the rear wheels blow moulded in aluminium.



One thing which amazed me is that on the traditional Morgans with a steel frame and ash body the top seat belt mounts are simply bolted to the rear inner wheel arch in plywood with steel straps.




In fairness there is a spreader plate and three bolts and the ply is 10mm with the seat belt load taken in shear through it. This is the only ply in the body, presumably to assure the seat belt mount integrity.

Anyway a nice day in craftsman land.

[FrankB]

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When were you there? I was on the 10:30 tour this morning.

[cheapracer]

How much are those Morgan 3 Wheelers? Oh I see - 11,400 Kgs or 25,000 Pounds ($41,000 USD).

Theres been a number of kits around the world using can-Hardley engines for a long time but of course I prefer a 4 wheel'ed variety if I had too ...



http://www.twintechcars.com/

Edited by cheapracer, 02 June 2011 - 04:44.

[mariner]

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When were you there? I was on the 10:30 tour this morning.

I went a couple of weeks ago but only just got round to downloading the camera

[mariner]

How much are those Morgan 3 Wheelers? Oh I see - 11,400 Kgs or 25,000 Pounds ($41,000 USD).

For Morgan the three wheeeler is important because it is a sub £30K entry price point. The prices may seem high but the harsh reality is that you need a 50% gross margin ( net sales price ex factory versus total mfg cost) to make a good living at low volume AND provide decent service/warranty/re investment. High volume OEM's can manage with less but GM went bankrupt at 30% gross margin whereas BMW are rich at probably 40%.

Sadly you either have to get well above $500M /yr sales like Aston Martin or Ferrari to survive or run a cottage indstry like many kit car mfrs. However they fail at a great rate.

I think you also need a clear niche, Morgan's is Retro performance with customer service in that the cars look retro, are quite quick and there is a global dealer network helped by the large pool of used Morgan's they can trade and service.

People like TVR made very fast cars but were IMHO killed dead by the Porsche Boxster - 160 mph, very reliable, 300 bhp, mid engined, steady residuals and the Porsche name all for £37K in the UK. It is almost impossible to deveop a rational competitor so only niches like Morgan and Atom are left ( unless somebody can do a Boxster for £25K out of China).

Edited by mariner, 02 June 2011 - 13:21.

[cheapracer]

Sadly you either have to get well above $500M /yr sales like Aston Martin or Ferrari to survive or run a cottage indstry like many kit car mfrs. However they fail at a great rate.

Because they try to be an Aston or Ferrari. Although the Atom is woefully overpriced, slow and bad handling besides other faults, it is at least like the Morgan, unique and has made it's own niche which is what I aiming to do.

Morgan's is Retro performance with customer service in that the cars look retro, are quite quick and there is a global dealer network helped by the large pool of used Morgan's they can trade and service.

You really were paying attention on the tour

[Canuck]

How does the Atom qualify as slow?

[Magoo]

I love this stuff. A while back I visited a facility where '32 Ford reproduction body panels were pounded out on an ancient 750-ton Hamilton press, then trimmed with a robotic laser.

[FrankB]

I love this stuff. A while back I visited a facility where '32 Ford reproduction body panels were pounded out on an ancient 750-ton Hamilton press, then trimmed with a robotic laser.

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The jigs currently used by Morgan to form the laminated rear wheel arches are the same ones that were introduced in "about 1952". A fine example of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Paolo]

People like TVR made very fast cars but were IMHO killed dead by the Porsche Boxster - 160 mph, very reliable, 300 bhp, mid engined, steady residuals and the Porsche name all for £37K in the UK. It is almost impossible to deveop a rational competitor so only niches like Morgan and Atom are left ( unless somebody can do a Boxster for £25K out of China).

It would only take someone to see the light and build a Speedster without driving aids or at least with ones you can switch off. I cannot believe Porsche enthusiast all around the world are happy with the wimpy driving experience Porsches offer these days.

[cheapracer]

How does the Atom qualify as slow?

Research it's lap times and what it gets beaten by.

[Canuck]

I would suppose that the faster the track, the worse it would perform against vehicles with a higher top speed. I seem to recall that on the Top Gear track it bested an enormous number of expensive cars, beaten only once by a car in it's own minimalist class. Fast? Perhaps not. Quick? Absolutely.

[JoeLucas]

Research it's lap times and what it gets beaten by.

Take a look at a few of the cars it beats. Doesn't seem too shabby when you look at the prices of these other machines.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...powerlaps.shtml


Car used (all road legal and capable of driving
over a speed bump without taking the nose off) Time (mins)

Ariel Atom V8 (Hayabusa-derived 500 bhp) 1.15.1
Bugatti Veyron SS 1.16.8
Gumpert Apollo 1.17.1
Ascari A10 1.17.3
Koenigsegg CCX (with Top Gear spoiler) 1.17.6
Noble M600 1.17.7
Pagani Zonda F Roadster 1.17.7
Caterham R500 (2-litre Ford Duratec 263bhp) 1.17.9
Bugatti Veyron 1.18.3
Pagani Zonda F 1.18.4
Maserati MC12 1.18.9
Ferrari Enzo 1.19.0
Lamborghini LP670 SV 1.19.0
Ferrari 458 1.19.1
Ariel Atom (2.0L Honda K20A1, i-VTEC 245 bhp) 1.19.5
Lamborghini LP560 1.19.5
Ferrari Scuderia 1.19.7
Nissan GT-R 1.19.7
Ferrari GTO 1.19.8
Lamborghini LP640 1.19.8
Porsche Carerra GT 1.19.8
Koenigsegg CCX 1.20.4
Corvette ZR1 1.20.4
Ascari KZ1 1.20.7
Mercedes McLaren SLR 1.20.9
Ferrari 599GTB 1.21.2
Audi R8 V10 1.21.6
Ford GT 1.21.9
Porsche 911 Turbo Convertable 1.22.2
Audi R8 V10 Spyder 1.22.3
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3
Porsche GT3 RS 1.22.3
Corvette Z06 1.22.4
Noble M15 1.22.5
Lexus LFA 1.22.8 (wet)
Mercedes SL Black 1.23.0

[cheapracer]

Take a look at a few of the cars it beats. Doesn't seem too shabby when you look at the prices of these other machines.

Go spend the time to go through club track day times where real people own them and compete or go through the Atom Forums.

Heres a real race track btw, Virginia International Raceway which happens to be Ariels home track, note the power to weight factors of which the Atom walks all over everything else and note the KTM XBow's time (Atoms closest market competition) ...


Pos Make / Model Time Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Mosler MT 900S 2:45.90 0 441 / 1100 Car&Driver
2. Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR 2:48.60 '08 600 / 1536 Car&Driver
3. Mosler MT900S Photon 2:49.80 '02 441 / 973 C&D
4. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 2:51.80 '08 647 / 1530 Mark gillies
5. Lamborghini Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera 2:51.80 '10 570 / 1430 C&D
6. KTM X-Bow 2:52.30 '08 241 / 871 C/D
7. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Carbon 2:53.50 '11 512 / 1394 C&D
8. Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce 2:53.90 '09 670 / 1664 Mark gillies
9. Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2:54.60 '07 510 / 1402 Car&Driver
10. Nissan GT-R 2:55.60 '08 479 / 1740 Car&Driver
11. Porsche 997 GT3 RS (facelift) 2:55.90 '10 450 / 1400 C&D
12. Dodge Viper SRT-10 (600hp) 2:57.40 '08 612 / 1567 Car and Driver
13. Porsche 997 Turbo S 2:57.50 '10 530 / 1585 C&D
14. Ariel Atom 3 (300 hp) 2:57.60 '08 300 / 456 Mark gillies
15. Mercedes SLS AMG 2:58.00 '10 571 / 1620 C&D
16. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 2:58.20 '05 513 / 1437 Car and Driver
17. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 2:58.48 '10 558 / 1712 Ford SVT
18. Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport C6 2:58.80 '10 436 / 1542 C/D
19. Audi R8 V10 5.2 FSI 2:59.50 '09 525 / 1620 Dave vanderwerp
20. Ford GT 3:00.70 '04 550 / 1538 Car and Driver

There's not much I haven't studied about the Atom as I'm going to market later this year as a competitor.

[Canuck]

So what you're saying is, Ben Collins is a better driver than most of the folks that run an Atom. And? Oh - and - you're looking at Ariel's 300hp version instead of their 500hp version that whalloped the better part of TG's board.

Come to think of it - what the above list shows is how modern traction/stability control make even the squidiest squid a track-day hero.

Edited to add: as it's not obvious - I hope you succeed and do well. We may not see eye to eye on all things but I'd still have you over for some fire-roasted animal flesh.

Edited by Canuck, 12 June 2011 - 04:33.

[gruntguru]

Come to think of it - what the above list shows is how modern traction/stability control make even the squidiest squid a track-day hero.

Not to mention the "real racetrack" venue where power/aero-drag becomes increasingly important and power/weight less important. If you build a car with the chassis on the outside and no bodywork or aero aids to speak of, its forte is not going to be demolishing supercars at real racetracks.

Edited by gruntguru, 12 June 2011 - 07:10.

[Canuck]

Indeed - I do believe that's what I said in my previous post - the faster the track, the worse it will compete.

[cheapracer]

So what you're saying is, Ben Collins is a better driver than most of the folks that run an Atom.

Mark Gilles is no slow poke and is editor of Car & Driver magazine, he is the driver for most of those lap times above and the KTM and Atom were set on the same day during a comparison. The average Atom driver is slower as the Atom is reputed by many to be a very nervous car near it's limit snap oversteer being it's worst trait just ahead of unpredictable front braking. I have seen lap times (Atom specific) on club days at various from all over the world and they are consistently slow.

Oh - and - you're looking at Ariel's 300hp version instead of their 500hp version that whalloped the better part of TG's board.


Edited to add: as it's not obvious - I hope you succeed and do well. We may not see eye to eye on all things but I'd still have you over for some fire-roasted animal flesh.

Well if you want to go to the 500 which I don't believe is applicable because of the engine rebuild hour schedule and it's very limited hand built numbers, then I merely mention Ferrari FXX, Ultima GTR and Caparo T1 all that whipped the 500's time and the Ultima besides 5 seconds faster, is cheaper. I wonder why TG hasn't tested the Ultima, it does come in a single spec.

I will succeed because I have the 2 requirements, skill and good looks.

Sure pop over anytime and we'll "throw a dog on the bbq".

Edited by cheapracer, 13 June 2011 - 02:22.

[Canuck]

Big fan of the Ultima since I was first introduced to it back in 2001. I spent some time on the phone and via email talking to the builder of the gonzo twin-turbo GTR (who's name is on the tip of my tongue but escapes me). He turned his plumbing nightmare /solution into a nice little business building exhaust systems I understand.

[Greg Locock]

Back on the TG list, rather more revealing is the caterham at 263 hp vs the Atom at 245 hp vs the Atom at 500 hp. 20 hp for 2 seconds?

Cheapy, what's the ride like in an Atom? There's one out at the PG but it is a customer car so I can't play with it.

[cheapracer]

Back on the TG list, rather more revealing is the caterham at 263 hp vs the Atom at 245 hp vs the Atom at 500 hp. 20 hp for 2 seconds?

Cheapy, what's the ride like in an Atom? There's one out at the PG but it is a customer car so I can't play with it.

Note the KTM XBow has 240 hp (and 850kgs) and more difficult to drive turbo compared to the Atom's supercharged 300hp (and 600kgs) yet is 5 seconds faster at VIR. When I get some time I'll post some of the Atom owner's comments about that comparison, had me in stitches.

I haven't ridden far enough to make a judgement sorry and on the wrong side.

[gruntguru]

Back on the TG list, rather more revealing is the caterham at 263 hp vs the Atom at 245 hp vs the Atom at 500 hp. 20 hp for 2 seconds?

The Atom is reportedly 10% lighter than the Caterham so it actually has a higher power/weight. It also has higher rear weight distribution so should kill the Caterham in a drag race. For the Caterham to be 2 seconds faster suggests a clear advantage around the TG track.

So why is the V8 Atom so much faster? Its got to be more than just power/weight since the Honda Atom was already superior to the Caterham. Perhaps the Hyabusa V8 engine is actually lighter, resulting in less rear weight and better manners?

[cheapracer]

The Atom is reportedly 10% lighter than the Caterham so it actually has a higher power/weight. It also has higher rear weight distribution so should kill the Caterham in a drag race. For the Caterham to be 2 seconds faster suggests a clear advantage around the TG track.

So why is the V8 Atom so much faster? Its got to be more than just power/weight since the Honda Atom was already superior to the Caterham. Perhaps the Hyabusa V8 engine is actually lighter, resulting in less rear weight and better manners?

The Atom weights are contreversial, the original Atom with a 1.6 150hp engine weighed and verified at 500kgs - then the 2 litre heavy as lead Honda K20a came along and the official weight stayed at 500kgs, then the 300hp came along (addition of supercharger) and surprise, surprise still 500kgs (officially). Atom owners however get over 600kgs (no driver) verified with pictures on corner weight scales.

"My 230hp car weighed 1,365 (wet) early on. After adding roll bar, wings, remote oil filter, etc. I'm at 1,430 or thereabouts depending on how much fuel is in the tank. When we weighed Sharpatom's UK Honda (220hp) it came out about 1,250 without wings or rollbar. All weights measured using Intercomp corner scales."

"My K20A tipped the scales at around 1430lbs. with Recaros, the rollbar, and about 8.5galUS of gasoline. With the rollbar off, it slips in under 1400."

"Atom 245 with fiberglass seat, roll protection bar, Dymags, C/F wings and owner fabricated side panels, no lighting, no fenders, all fuids including 3/4 tank of fuel = 1,397 lbs."

The 500 is indeed 500kgs, the Busa V8 only weighs 90kgs and the 500 has large front and rear wings. That makes it an astonishing 1000hp per tonne of course but then the Radical SR8 with a similar bike V8 setup and power to weight goes around the Nurb a full one minute faster so there's some rather large issues with the Atom's grip levels. Atom owners are very shy about coming forward with their Nurb lap times.

Edited by cheapracer, 14 June 2011 - 04:20.

[Canuck]

I can't have either over here (Atom or KTM) and I suspect I can't have a Cheapie either. I can however have an Ultima according to DOT (but not according to my wallet I'm afraid).

[gruntguru]

That makes it an astonishing 1000hp per tonne of course but then the Radical SR8 with a similar bike V8 setup and power to weight goes around the Nurb a full one minute faster so there's some rather large issues with the Atom's grip levels.

Cheapie it sounds like Top Gear needs to test the Radical.

[cheapracer]

Cheapie it sounds like Top Gear needs to test the Radical.

Watch this to see what a layman thinks about driving one, part 2 in particular and the summary in part 3 ...

http://www.google.co...w...sa=N&tab=wv

Then you can watch the Atom incar from here and see the same thing, notice the Caterham gobbles it up in the twistys but then on the straights the Atom's 300 neddies ...

http://www.google.co...w...mp;aql=&oq=

[gruntguru]

Oversteering pig. What happens when someone who knows their stuff does a race setup? It's not picking up the inside front so there must be a fair bit can be done just moving some roll stiffness forward. If the rear weight bias is too extreme it may need bigger rubber on the rear - anyone know the rear %?

[roadie]

The Atom is reportedly 10% lighter than the Caterham so it actually has a higher power/weight. It also has higher rear weight distribution so should kill the Caterham in a drag race. For the Caterham to be 2 seconds faster suggests a clear advantage around the TG track.

So why is the V8 Atom so much faster? Its got to be more than just power/weight since the Honda Atom was already superior to the Caterham. Perhaps the Hyabusa V8 engine is actually lighter, resulting in less rear weight and better manners?

The V8 Atom has wings for downforce for a start.

[cheapracer]

Oversteering pig. What happens when someone who knows their stuff does a race setup? It's not picking up the inside front so there must be a fair bit can be done just moving some roll stiffness forward. If the rear weight bias is too extreme it may need bigger rubber on the rear - anyone know the rear %?

The long and almost equal length arms combined with a high CG lead to a minor modern version of a VW Beetle's swingarm "jacking" - notice it slides, grabs, slides, grabs etc. inconsistently.

The 'race setup' calls for 4 degrees of static camber to avoid positive camber in roll which then upsets the braking. It's hilarious at the Atom forums, classic stuff like "a car such as the Atom shouldn't be easy to drive otherwise everybody could....."

Surprises me that these problems are well known yet they are onto their 3rd series of which they made chassis structual changes but didn't bother to address it's real issues, guess when you have a years waiting list for a car that can distort your face into an "Alien" you don't have to.

[gruntguru]

Thanks Cheapy.

[BRG]

Cheapie it sounds like Top Gear needs to test the Radical.

I suspect the answer is "Car used (all road legal and capable of driving over a speed bump without taking the nose off)"

TG have discounted some cars because of this proviso.

[mariner]

I did a similar post sometime ago so forgive any duplication..

whilst all the bike powered cars are impressive in performanc and build quality I can't say they seem very efficient weight wise. A superbike weighs about 180 kg so if you bolted two together with , say 5 kg of tubes you would have under 400kg with two engines, four seats and 300bhp+. That gives an unladen power/weight ratio of 800 bhp/ton.

So if you stick with just one bike engine but still four wheels you need to add two wheel/tyre/brake assemblies plus some supension parts. That should be about 80 kg max. So with one bike engine and four wheels plus two seats I get well under 300kg as a benchmark plus any bodywork ( but the Atom etc has very little of that). 300kg and 150 bhp from one engine is nearly 500 bhp/ton unladen.

However many times I so this superbike plus two wheels calculation I still come to the same conclusion - bike engined cars are very efficient designs versus taking the source bike and adding the extra bits to get four wheels.

[gruntguru]

Very efficient designs indeed. After tieing the two motorcycles together you need to start adding the following heavy extras. (I am sure there are many more)

- Wheels. The motorcycle wheel only needs to withstand radial force and rotational torque. Car wheels must also cope with lateral force and the resulting moment about the fore-aft axis.
- Tyres. Similar situation.
- Uprights. Highly loaded items subject to the same set of forces not seen on motorcycles.
- Chassis. Torsional stiffness requirement many times that of a motorcycle.
- Driver seat. Two extra axes of support required.
- Harness and loads to be fed into chassis.
- Steering. Robust mechanism synchronising steering angle of two wheels.
- Final drive. Sharing power to two drive wheels.

[mariner]

Very efficient designs indeed. After tieing the two motorcycles together you need to start adding the following heavy extras. (I am sure there are many more)

- Wheels. The motorcycle wheel only needs to withstand radial force and rotational torque. Car wheels must also cope with lateral force and the resulting moment about the fore-aft axis.
- Tyres. Similar situation.
- Uprights. Highly loaded items subject to the same set of forces not seen on motorcycles.
- Chassis. Torsional stiffness requirement many times that of a motorcycle.
- Driver seat. Two extra axes of support required.
- Harness and loads to be fed into chassis.
- Steering. Robust mechanism synchronising steering angle of two wheels.
- Final drive. Sharing power to two drive wheels.

My 80kg budget is as follows

- 2*tyre/wheel assy 20 kg
- 2*brake+hub assy 10kg
- chassis elements for torsional strength 20 kg
- steering rack+mounts 6 kg
- extra driveshaft 6kg
- minimal bodywork 15 kg
- extra lights 3kg

A bike already has three or four spring/damper units and whilst the uprights point is entirely valid most modern superbikes use a single side rear swing arm which has to take a lot of loads which will not all exist in a car so it is not all extra net weight.

I am not claiming that you could build a 300kg bike powered car but having a refernce point lets you see how efficent the typical designs are, and as they weight 400kg+ I do wonder where all the extra weigt goes.

One answer is actually a philosphical one , car designers are obsessed with max. lateral g so wide track and big tyres are seen as essential. That more or less enforces a platform size and therefore weight indentical to a conventional car.
-

[cheapracer]

I am not claiming that you could build a 300kg bike powered car but having a refernce point lets you see how efficent the typical designs are, and as they weight 400kg+ I do wonder where all the extra weigt goes.

It's just laziness Mariner, you can stay under 400 easily.

Look up very lightweight Gordan Murray's "Rocket" or the 350kg Warner R4

http://www.wr4.co.uk/#/content/start/

The rather long and detailed build thread for the Warner is here

http://www.locostbui...d.php?tid=54042

Edited by cheapracer, 17 June 2011 - 03:33.

[onelung]

Could I ask here - are Morgans still using animal-based glues to hold their woodwork together, or have they at long last gone high tech and adopted modern adhesives? If the latter is the case, should not we all then be rueing the loss of a traditional manufacturing process?

[24gerrard]

One answer is actually a philosphical one , car designers are obsessed with max. lateral g so wide track and big tyres are seen as essential. That more or less enforces a platform size and therefore weight indentical to a conventional car.

Good point Mariner.

It is why I would like to build a twin electric motor FWD 'tadpole' single seater three wheeler with steering on the rear wheel along with rear wheel lean in corners.

Edited by 24gerrard, 18 June 2011 - 12:50.

[cheapracer]

It is why I would like to build a twin electric motor FWD 'tadpole' single seater three wheeler with steering on the rear wheel along with rear wheel lean in corners.

I'm sure there's a few people here that would support you too.


Myself I would go Honda Gyro style ...

http://www.google.co...l...sa=N&tab=wi

Amusingly this extremely successful Japan only market model had the patents for it purchased from BSA. I have ridden a couple around a carpark and awesome fun dragging your knee sliding the rear - the normal front half of the bike tilts as normal while the rear wheels stay flat on the ground, the engine/rear wheels pivot separately.

Edited by cheapracer, 18 June 2011 - 13:37.

[mariner]

Honda used to run a competition for it's staff to come up with new uses for Honda products.

The best one I saw was simply a pole with a 50cc engine at one end wth a rubber wheel , a bike seat half way up and handlebars with twist grip at the other end.

You use it like a witches broom whilst wearing roller skates. Sit on the seat, grab the bars and lean back to load the rubber wheel and wind on the twist grip.

The rider and broom then shoot along the road at great speed but maybe not 100% safety.

It must have had the best payload to unloaded weight of any motorised device ever.

[Tony Matthews]

Apart from a proper witches broomstick!

[24gerrard]

Apart from a proper witches broomstick!

Most witches I have come across, 'fly' using the effects of hallucinogenic drugs.
I dont think an engine is involved.

[indigoid]

Look up very lightweight Gordan Murray's "Rocket" or the 350kg Warner R4

Holy crap. I'd never heard of the Rocket, somehow. Sounds like a lot of seriously impractical fun!

Could you achieve superior torque:engine weight with a small-displacement turbocharged bike engine?

There's some videos floating about the internets of an Escort with a turbocharged Honda CBR900RR engine... It sounds awfully laggy, but that should be fixable with tuning and correct turbo selection. I'm sure it's far, far lighter than the original Ford motor :-)

My main bike weighs 280kg wringing wet. Admittedly it is a 2-wheeled luxury barge, but is still only a little lighter than the Warner you mention