67 replies to this topic

[KiloWatt]

http://www.wheels24....-in-F1-20110606

Read for yourselves. Pretty interesting.

Can anyone that has been to a GP this year confirm this?

[engel]

Loudest car (as per your article) is 127.8 db, quietest car is 125.9 db. And you 're asking if someone can "confirm" a difference of 2 db?
What a thread ...

[jee]

You know that 2db is ~30% louder?

[engel]

You know that 2db is ~30% louder?

1 decibel is Just Noticeable Difference as far as the human ear is concerned.

[Bloggsworth]

Db are a logarithmic measurement, most Hi-Fi manufacturers when using stepped volume controls set the steps at 3Db - SPL, sound pressure level is a more reliable comparison as far as the human ear is concerned.

[Unbiased]

1 decibel is Just Noticeable Difference as far as the human ear is concerned.

Have you been to an F1 race and stood close to the track? Surely you heard there is a difference in volume between the cars?

I noticed a huge difference between the Virgin and Renault, it is very obvious and it is not just the tone difference but the volume.

[engel]

Have you been to an F1 race and stood close to the track? Surely you heard there is a difference in volume between the cars?

I noticed a huge difference between the Virgin and Renault, it is very obvious and it is not just the tone difference but the volume.

yes I have, and yes I do hear a tonal difference between the renault and any other car. But no I don't perceive any car as "louder" even standing 10 meters away from the cars

[Lights]

The only thing that was obvious to notice at the track was that the Renault makes very loud noises through corners and is the only car to do so.

[Ruf]

2 db is quite a big difference and should be noticeable. However not for F1 engine sounds. Anything higher than 100db is just at "are you nuts?" level.

[King Six]

The Renault sounds like a beast this season, you can hear the sounds properly when they're picked up by amateur cameras or when they're recording in the pitlane (not FOM, others like BBC)

The FOM cameras do a seriously poor job at capturing the sound from an F1 event.

[olliek88]

I have noticed before a audible difference between some of the cars, at one of the Jerez tests last year i stood on the pits straight for a good hour just watching and listening and i did notice the mclaren and merc were louder than the red bull although the renault was pretty loud, it wasn't quite as much of a screamer as the Merc powered cars.

[phil1993]

I think the difference between the loudest is '****ing hell thats loud' and the quietest is 'bloody hell thats loud'

[Slartibartfast]

2 db is quite a big difference and should be noticeable. However not for F1 engine sounds. Anything higher than 100db is just at "are you nuts?" level.

I think you would only notice the difference if you have fairly good hearing and are deliberately listening for the difference. The first problem with that is that if you regularly listen to anything at those kind of sound levels, your hearing won't be good for very long. Engel is right that, in terms of human perception, 2dB is small.

The fundamental problem with the original article is that we have no idea what the methodology was. Without knowing how they took their measurements, the data they produced is essentially meaningless.

[BigCHrome]

I thought F1 cars were in the 140 dB range

[Sammyosammy]

Don`t know about the db`s but on the track Merc sounded much louder than the rest of the pack but Renault sounded loudest by a good margin. Almost frightening loud...

[y2cragie]

A few years back, the Hondas and the renaults used to be at a whole different level, to the point where they hurt the ears after a few laps.

[ashnathan]

The only thing that was obvious to notice at the track was that the Renault makes very loud noises through corners and is the only car to do so.

The Lotus Renault is the loudest. The Red Bull getting back on the throttle sounds like a big explosion just a huuuuge BANG and crackle, the McLaren is by far the roughest sounding under brakes, but surprisingly at reaaaaally low revs the Team Lotus car actually had the grandstands on the main straight at Sepang vibrating, my whole body was buzzing when it trickled into the lane and when it cut the off throtting gurgling out it was just crisp. The Lotus Renault and Red Bull are the loudest though, in different ways, when the cars are coming at you its obviously the Renault but once the car has passed its the Red Bull. This was in Malaysia though, don't know if it could have changed.

[PLAYLIFE]

I thought F1 cars were in the 140 dB range

I'm sure BBC said on air that an F1 car was 146dB in the last few weeks (IIRC) - whatever the exact number, they definitely said it was above 140dB.

[DanardiF1]

At Jerez testing (the only track action I've seen this year) the Renault was the loudest, but also the worst sounding with it's shredding sound off-throttle. The Red Bull was also quite loud, as were the Ferrari-powered cars (they were also the loudest back at Silverstone 2009, my last Grand Prix trip).

[Jazza]

The Lotus Renault is the loudest. The Red Bull getting back on the throttle sounds like a big explosion just a huuuuge BANG and crackle, the McLaren is by far the roughest sounding under brakes, but surprisingly at reaaaaally low revs the Team Lotus car actually had the grandstands on the main straight at Sepang vibrating, my whole body was buzzing when it trickled into the lane and when it cut the off throtting gurgling out it was just crisp. The Lotus Renault and Red Bull are the loudest though, in different ways, when the cars are coming at you its obviously the Renault but once the car has passed its the Red Bull. This was in Malaysia though, don't know if it could have changed.

I noticed a similar thing at malaysia last year with the red bull. It was the only car I hated. Whenever it went past I had to put ear protection on. The other cars were loud, but it was ear hurting loud.

[ViMaMo]

The cameras dont do justice to the sound. When they change down and the exhaust goes "bang bang bang", its the most amazing thing.

[6string]

I went to the Aus GP and the Renault was definitely the loudest, but it's only due to the exhaust position. The front exiting exhausts are pointing sideways, directly at the spectator from a side on view. That's why it was loudest coming towards you and side on, while others are louder once past as the rear facing exhausts are then more prominent.

Overall I don't think they are loud enough. My first live race was 2009 so I missed the v10 era and the 20000k v8 era. I just imagined them to have more of an aural impact to be honest. By far the most thrilling motorsport both aurally and ground shaking madness is top fuel drag racing. It will blow your mind hole.

Edited by 6string, 07 June 2011 - 08:02.

[roadie]

Can anyone comment on the sound of the Williams?

I agree that the FOM sounds, especially on board are a terrible representation of how a F1 car really sounds in person.

[olliek88]

The cameras dont do justice to the sound. When they change down and the exhaust goes "bang bang bang", its the most amazing thing.

That was one of the first things i noticed when i went to my first F1 test a few years ago, i just wish the TV could convey the banging and popping sounds, when they have a little lift off the throttle mid corner you get such a gorgeously crisp bang, its the single best thing about watching F1 in real life and maybe the best sound in the world too!

[Bunchies]

The Lotus Renault is the loudest. The Red Bull getting back on the throttle sounds like a big explosion just a huuuuge BANG and crackle, the McLaren is by far the roughest sounding under brakes, but surprisingly at reaaaaally low revs the Team Lotus car actually had the grandstands on the main straight at Sepang vibrating, my whole body was buzzing when it trickled into the lane and when it cut the off throtting gurgling out it was just crisp. The Lotus Renault and Red Bull are the loudest though, in different ways, when the cars are coming at you its obviously the Renault but once the car has passed its the Red Bull. This was in Malaysia though, don't know if it could have changed.

Ah, that's probably due to the Lotus Renault hitting its resonance frequency. You can do the same thing if you throw a huge exhaust onto your car. Around 2500-3000rpm, everything vibrates and your ears feel like they're going to implode.

[MadYarpen]

That was one of the first things i noticed when i went to my first F1 test a few years ago, i just wish the TV could convey the banging and popping sounds, when they have a little lift off the throttle mid corner you get such a gorgeously crisp bang, its the single best thing about watching F1 in real life and maybe the best sound in the world too!

watching F1 live gives me goosebumps ALL THE TIME... And sound in TV is well... Pathetic in comparison. Hell, even message sound on my phone (downloaded from F1.com) sounds sooo much better. Playing it at high volume on computer is absolutely fantastic, while onboards....

[SpaMaster]

Who cares? If the best car is silent, that's what everyone would want.

[KiloWatt]

Who cares? If the best car is silent, that's what everyone would want.

Everyone but you, it seems.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Heres a vid of the Williams last year at Spa during the race



Can deffo hear some spluttering

That looks/sounds like it's stuttering off-throttle, and I think Spa '10 is when they tried their exhaust blown difuser.

[PretentiousBread]

Funny, I always thought the Brawn sounded substantially meatier than the McLaren in '09, with identical engines. Listening to the onboard of Rosberg's lap at Istanbul and the downshifts are positively violent, like a guitar with distortion.

[mclarensmps]

A few years back, the Hondas and the renaults used to be at a whole different level, to the point where they hurt the ears after a few laps.

2008. Hondas were so loud it was painful. They were closely followed by BMW, for me, rather than Renault.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

2008. Hondas were so loud it was painful. They were closely followed by BMW, for me, rather than Renault.

Yeah the BMW's were brutal especially on the downshifts I absolutely loved the sound. However this year I have to say the R31 sounds the loudest that thing is just raw and amazing, I'd say for 2nd place it's between the RB7 & the W02 the RB7 off throttle sounds like an explosion and the Merc on downshifts just sounds like a beast especially with their more aggressive engine mapping.

[Scotracer]

2008. Hondas were so loud it was painful. They were closely followed by BMW, for me, rather than Renault.

Yup. I was at testing in 2008 and the Honda literally hurt to listen to.

The loudest F1 car I've heard was the 2004 BAR Honda 006...that thing was just incredible. Simply incredible.

[Starish]

Who cares? If the best car is silent, that's what everyone would want.

Is that you Jean Todt?

[Lee Nicolle]

Hate to say this but they should have mufflers.The 100-105 db area is where they should be. For all sorts of reasons. [1] occ health and safety,those things are literally deafening all the team workers inc drivers. Plus the paying public [b] The whole enviroment around the track. in the AGP days I could hear them unconfortably 6km away at my place, and that was turbo cars. [c] if the rest of the motorsport community has to be quiet,so should they. I am amazed how we do not have more dogooders raving about the noise, they do about Supercars and for gods sake and they are a woosy 90db.
Some decent noise is ok, in fact desireable but over 120db really is dumb. And the exhaust should exit outside the body work, just like virtually all racing rules rightly require. And that would solve all the controversy about exhaust blown diffusers.

[SpaMaster]

Is that you Jean Todt?

Why? It is very tough to digest the thought that the fastest car may not have anything to do with sound, is it?

Or, do you want Mosley back?

Edited by SpaMaster, 09 June 2011 - 01:03.

[PLAYLIFE]

2008. Hondas were so loud it was painful. They were closely followed by BMW, for me, rather than Renault.

Yep I agree, Honda and BMW were a lot more harsh to the ear than other powerplants in 2008.


My favourites I've heard in person are the 3L Ferrari V12 from 1995, to hear Alesi's car screaming through the Senna chicane in Adelaide was incredible.

But the most amazing sound for me must have been the McLaren MP/15 from 2000 with their exhaust layout causing sonic resonance, an incredibly high pitched sound.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Can hear it especially out of turn 4 and out of the Jim Clark chicane in the video above, whenever it was powering out of the slower corners.

[6string]

Hate to say this but they should have mufflers.The 100-105 db area is where they should be. For all sorts of reasons. [1] occ health and safety,those things are literally deafening all the team workers inc drivers. Plus the paying public [b] The whole enviroment around the track. in the AGP days I could hear them unconfortably 6km away at my place, and that was turbo cars. [c] if the rest of the motorsport community has to be quiet,so should they. I am amazed how we do not have more dogooders raving about the noise, they do about Supercars and for gods sake and they are a woosy 90db.
Some decent noise is ok, in fact desireable but over 120db really is dumb. And the exhaust should exit outside the body work, just like virtually all racing rules rightly require. And that would solve all the controversy about exhaust blown diffusers.

Literally deafening? Ear protection prevents any kind of hearing damage. All team and track staff wear protection, and it is the responsibility of the spectators to do the same. Outside a perimiter of say 200-400 metres hearing protection isn't even needed, so if you were uncomfortable at a 6km distance I have to question why you're a fan of motorsport in the first place, if at all.

[packapoo]

Without wasting time reading, have to be STR driven by Buemi singing top of his lungs, 'The Lonely Goatherd'.

[Bunchies]

90db? My road car is louder than that for chrissake.

[Lee Nicolle]

90db? My road car is louder than that for chrissake.

Most forms of motorsport have had that limitation for many years, world wide.

[Lee Nicolle]

Literally deafening? Ear protection prevents any kind of hearing damage. All team and track staff wear protection, and it is the responsibility of the spectators to do the same. Outside a perimiter of say 200-400 metres hearing protection isn't even needed, so if you were uncomfortable at a 6km distance I have to question why you're a fan of motorsport in the first place, if at all.

Ear protection LIMITS the damage. And the noise was damned annoying, not hazardous 6km away.
Since I have done some form or another of motorsport for 40+ years I understand the hazards. My lower level hearing is poor, as is my ability to hear with background noise. Not debilitating but annoying. And none of my cars ever would have been more than 100db. Most older Nascar drivers have hearing problems, and they have mufflers these days. Though their limit must still be high, but nowhere near F1.

[tifosiMac]

When I last went to a race in 2009 I found the Toyota was the loudest, obviously thats abit out of date now.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

The V10's were louder, and had more interesting harmonics as it went through the gears.

Tv broadcasts do not get the audio right - they're geared to an American football-broadcast philosophy I'd guess, in that they're trying to get the microphones
as up close to the "action" as possible. They are also using electronic audio devices known as "compressors/limiters" which effectively raises the volume level when something *isn't* full volume - which is contrary to how humans hear.

The result being that the cars drown out the ambient sound - which is what gives you the mental/sonic cues that what you're hearing is "loud". Compounding this is that when they cut to a different camera position, that audio feed changes to there and once again you get "full" (relative) volume.

THEN you get the voice over ducked on top of that, so the sound of someone coughing off microphone is as loud as the car going by on screen at 200 mph.

Which is all because they're doing things the traditionally "correct" way, and likewise no one can be blamed for doing it "wrong".

IMO:

1) When a car is shown onscreen at max revs, the only thing we should hear is THE CAR. The *track sounds* should duck the VO, not the other way around. Yes, the viewer may not hear the Ultimately Much More Important and Valuable Information the voice over talent is saying, but you know, I WANT TO HEAR THE CARS.

2) Track sounds shouldn't be mixed together. If there is a long camera shot, the viewer should hear the car with an appropriately distant sound, so that as the car closes one gets to hear the plethora of *ambient effects* the cars create. That is what makes "amateur" video on YouTube so much more exciting - there is a sense of proportion in that you hear the sheer volume of the car in the distance, but SOFTER than the LOUD, UP CLOSE sound. Which leads to....

3) THE CARS MUST BE LOUD! CRAZY, INSANE LOUD! This fulfills the aural ENTERTAINMENT value of the sport; it's not hearing something ear shatteringly loud up close, it's that from a half mile or more distance you can hear something that costs more than $250,000 to develop doing it's thing that far away. *That is very, very cool* - if the reader doesn't get this, I'd suggest one is not a "race car fan".

4) Foam ear plugs are definitely safe enough for the spectator. You are not exposed to 140db for more than an instant as the car passes by, and it's not that loud for most positions in the stands. It is certainly less damaging than going to the average rock concert, or operating a cement mixer or lawn mower all day. For the teams, molded plugs and headphones should be plenty. For the random bozo who likes to pride himself in not flinching around loud sounds - that's for Darwin to decide (although he's probably busy with the live music entertainment industry).



Again (again)(again), F1 is entertainment, and road cars are headed towards electric motors. It is inherently a dichotomy to try to somehow use a philosophy that a visceral entertainment should somehow comply *only partially* to some arbitrary interpretation of "road car relevance". Racing cars is about power, and that is the entertainment value: the sound is as much a part of that as anything, the new race fan should be bowled over by the sound of the cars *before they enter the venue where the race is held*. That is so much a part of it that for someone to say they don't understand that makes me feel like I woke up in the wrong universe today. *I remember hearing F1 cars for the first time from inside the public transportation bus blocks away from pulling up to the track at Indy*, and the melange of sound of the cars created, echoing around the stands, and across the track. I would feel very alone on the planet if I'm the only red blooded guy that felt that way about such an event - that alone made the 600 mile commute worth it.

All electric cars with no regulations, 5g acceleration - or go back to the V10's with something like the 2001 regs with no TC. You don't see mufflers on a Top Fuel dragster, do you? WTF???

[Gold]

This is from an era with no decibel regulations.

The last V12 engine ever in Formula One.

Perhaps fittingly a Ferrari.

We lost this the same year we lost Senna.

Foreward to 1m47s and close your eyes.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Scotracer]

This is from an era with no decibel regulations.

The last V12 engine ever in Formula One.

Perhaps fittingly a Ferrari.

We lost this the same year we lost Senna.

Foreward to 1m47s and close your eyes.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

There isn't a decibel limit in current F1. The cars are just a bit quieter due to smaller capacity and limited revs.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Is displacement or revs the key to sound? Because they sure weren't revving as high back then.

[Bunchies]

Is displacement or revs the key to sound? Because they sure weren't revving as high back then.

Hmm, both should be important to "loudness," as both would create more energy (power) so to speak.

Now if it's the tone we're talking about, high revs tend to give the much more frenetic sound that we've gotten in the past decade. I don't believe that displacement is as important to engine tone as layout is. The tone should be determined by the exhaust pulses we can hear, which is why the V8s and V10s have innate differences in sound.

[Gold]

Hmm, both should be important to "loudness," as both would create more energy (power) so to speak.

Now if it's the tone we're talking about, high revs tend to give the much more frenetic sound that we've gotten in the past decade. I don't believe that displacement is as important to engine tone as layout is. The tone should be determined by the exhaust pulses we can hear, which is why the V8s and V10s have innate differences in sound.

Well I think the amount of cylinders also makes a huge difference. Compare this video:



To the video above of the 412T1 with Ferrari V12 tipo043 engine (about 820 hp@~16000).

This is an FW16 with Renault V10 RS6 about the same values for hp and rpm. Both 3.5L.

And for comparison:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

An FW14B with Renault V10 (720hp @14800).

The exhaust system would also make a difference to the sound.

Edited by Gold, 09 June 2011 - 17:57.

[Bunchies]

Well I think the amount of cylinders also makes a huge difference. Compare this video:



To the video above of the 412T1 with Ferrari V12 tipo043 engine (about 820 hp@~16000).

This is an FW16 with Renault V10 RS6 about the same values for hp and rpm. Both 3.5L.

And for comparison:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

An FW14B with Renault V10 (720hp @14800).

The exhaust system would also make a difference to the sound.

Excuse me while I change my pants.

Engine configuration and exhaust layout definitely affect the sound of the car.

Wow I gotta add that second video to my favorites.

Edited by Bunchies, 09 June 2011 - 18:26.