129 replies to this topic

[MatsNorway]

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

That thingy got 1300hp.. i wonder how it would go against a F1 car..

some info
http://www.autoevolu...peak-36036.html

Homepage.. should hopefully be some specs there.
http://www.pauldallenbachracing.com/

[Magoo]

I think the Pikes Peak car would be faster than an F1 car at Pikes Peak, while the F1 car would be faster than the Pikes Peak car on an F1 circuit. Out on a limb here.

[nodrift4me]

I think the Pikes Peak car would be faster than an F1 car at Pikes Peak, while the F1 car would be faster than the Pikes Peak car on an F1 circuit. Out on a limb here.

Very much so, as an F1 car doesn't have forced induction so when starting the run at 11,000' odd it'd immediately be down something like 30% on power because of the thin air. The PP car has turbos so it wouldn't worry about the altitude. The PP may eat the F1 car at sea level in a straight line but for sure when it got to any corners the F1 would be quite a lot faster.

[johnny yuma]

Average speed up PP is only 120 km/h,so the big speedway wing on the PP car while good for thin air at altitude might do weird things to handling on an F1 circuit.Part of PP is still dirt ,can't see an F1 car doing tail out opposite lock slides--they have SFA lock available for one thing.
The Play Station Red BullX2010 designed by Adrian Newey and Kanouri Yamachui might beat both of them on both PP and F1 circuits if it were built,with it's forced induction 1479 hp,weight of 545 kg and fan-car downforce allowing 8g cornering,the limit of human endurance.Love to see what the fan-car would do on a dirt road !

[gruntguru]

Anyone know if its AWD? Doesn't make sense if it's not.

[cheapracer]

Anyone know if its AWD? Doesn't make sense if it's not.

2 wheel drive, with the amount of asphalt now it's not as big a difference.

I believe because of power, freedom of tyres, freedom of wings and the stupid tight F1 tracks now that this would be quicker over a flying lap

[Greg Locock]

I believe because of power, freedom of tyres, freedom of wings and the stupid tight F1 tracks now that this would be quicker over a flying lap

Deepends on the type of gearbox fitted to each vehicle. Apparently.

[BRG]

Horses for courses. Around Spa, that hideous Dallenbach thingy would be slow. And so would a RB7 on Pike's Peak.

[smitten]

If you had F1 budget and F1 skills, but not the constraints of the F1 rules, it would be relatively simple to build a car that was faster around a given circuit than a current F1 car. Covered wheels, unlimited moveable aerodynamics, ground effects, more powerful engines: all denied by the rules but each could give a significant performance improvement.

As someone said - horses for courses.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You wouldn't even need an F1 budget. You could buy a several year old car and put in an illegal engine, super sticky tires, tweak the aero as much as you like and probably break a few track records.

[cheapracer]

Horses for courses. Around Spa, that hideous Dallenbach thingy would be slow. And so would a RB7 on Pike's Peak.

I think you're wrong on both accounts. 1300hp in an obviously well developed chassis with massive downforce around even around a fast track like Spa will make an impact and the average top boys speed at Pike's is 120kmh, well and truly in the speed area for a F1 car to be working.

[MatsNorway]

about the wings.
wings aint magic. nothing strange about the wings we see here. it would probably work ok on higher speeds too.

About handling
Due to the wild wings it might get some understeer going at 150k+ but we don`t know that and we must assume its possible to make it handle decent at high speeds..

Because after all. If it doesn`t go well at high speeds its crap any other places too, due to the RWD. I think this car won last year. beating the 1000hp escudo and the le mans like rhys millen car (he spun)

http://blog.roadandt...580-440x330.jpg
older modell
http://www.jalopnik....ikes-Peak-3.jpg

About Pikes peak..
F1 cars has raced up there in the past.. in the 60s i believe.

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 June 2011 - 13:07.

[ray b]

they had a indy car class in 60's
but no formal F-1 class

[MatsNorway]

they had a indy car class in 60's
but no formal F-1 class

Cool.

I did some googling and found one F1 car that has raced at pikes peak(or should i say grand prix car?) to be a Maserati from the 40s.
http://www.ultimatec...erati-8CTF.html

http://deathmachines.net/blog/?cat=550

heey! that Millen car V6 sounds very good!

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 June 2011 - 18:47.

[BRG]

I think you're wrong on both accounts. 1300hp in an obviously well developed chassis with massive downforce around even around a fast track like Spa will make an impact and the average top boys speed at Pike's is 120kmh, well and truly in the speed area for a F1 car to be working.

Nope. The PP car must have massive drag with wings that size and wouldn't be very fast up the Kemmel Straight or through Blanchimont - certainly not running at 200+kph. And frankly, over to you to try taking Eau Rouge almost flat. It would be worth seeing, maybe, but fast? No.

And an F1 car on gravel at high altitude wouldn't work very well. Or else why hasn't anyone used one, given that PP is pretty much Formula Libre?

Edited by BRG, 07 June 2011 - 18:38.

[MatsNorway]

Nope. The PP car must have massive drag with wings that size

1300hp doesn`t care about drag up to 300..

besides the wings got conservative angles compared to the rear wings on todays F1 cars.. also the wheels generate a lot of drag and this one has them mostly covered.
http://www.autoblog....peak/#continued

And ho cares about ou rouge is done flat or not. it would still go very fast.

Here is the pikes peak 2011 entry list.
http://director.usac...etitor_list.pdf

Interesting to note that mr Mark rennison is going to race. He must be 50 years+ now.
http://www.rallybuzz...rd-rs200-ppihc/


He got 1,150bhp! in a rs200 with a weight of 1000kg on the startline. Im cheering for this guy!
What a hideous wing.

here is some old vids from the glory days.

http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=218s

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 June 2011 - 19:33.

[Magoo]

about the wings.
wings aint magic. nothing strange about the wings we see here. it would probably work ok on higher speeds too.

Sure, except for that square to the speed thing.

[kikiturbo2]

I'd just like to add that the quoted power figures are usually at somewhat lower altitude and pikes peak cars do not see those numbers all the time..

on a similar note... some of them are using a trailored rolling road dyno, so that they can map their cars on various points up the mountain..

[johnny yuma]

How important are brakes on PP.Most hillclimb specials use little lightweight rotors...OK if it's all uphill at relatively low speeds,you might only hit the stoppers hard once or twice.Wouldn't do on an F1 course.Does PP have signifigant fast or downhill bits ?

[cheapracer]

Does PP have signifigant fast or downhill bits ?

No downhill but the anchors are worked hard, don't let the uphill part fool you although it's fair to say theres not a "end of the back straight at Spa" type braking spot.

Theres a few in cars around the net to see just how quick they are going - 120kmh average over 20km's of windy bits isn't hanging around.

You won't get much better than this one ...

http://www.streetfir...ter_2047523.htm

Edited by cheapracer, 08 June 2011 - 03:09.

[Fat Boy]

I think the Pikes Peak car would be faster than an F1 car at Pikes Peak, while the F1 car would be faster than the Pikes Peak car on an F1 circuit. Out on a limb here.

No way, Mighty Mouse would completely kick UnderDog's ass. It wouldn't even be close.

[cheapracer]

errr who's MM and who's UD?

And an F1 car on gravel at high altitude wouldn't work very well. Or else why hasn't anyone used one, given that PP is pretty much Formula Libre?

Why would you use a restricted car in an open formula?

I have to think Dallenbach's car is where you would end up even if you started with a basic F1 car anyway.

Edited by cheapracer, 08 June 2011 - 02:56.

[johnny yuma]

errr who's MM and who's UD?



Why would you use a restricted car in an open formula?

I have to think Dallenbach's car is where you would end up even if you started with a basic F1 car anyway.

With that amount of wing front and rear at sea level you pretty much wouldn't need brakes above 250 kliks the underside would be sawcutting the bitumen ?

Edited by johnny yuma, 08 June 2011 - 05:06.

[desmo]

Surely one could build something that would destroy an F1 car even on an F1 circuit pretty simply using just cheap supercharged cubic horsepower and giant wings/diffusers provided a major tire manufacturer was willing to play along?

[MatsNorway]

How much does those open wheelers weight?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Surely one could build something that would destroy an F1 car even on an F1 circuit pretty simply using just cheap supercharged cubic horsepower and giant wings/diffusers provided a major tire manufacturer was willing to play along?

McGuire, at least I think it was him, had an anecdote about this. But either my searching is stupid or it's located in the first few million posts that have temporarily been removed from the BB to fix a database issue.

But the basic story was in 99 Montoya's personal sponsor, a Colombian beer company, wanted to get some footage for a commercial. It was too expensive to run his CART car for the day so they mocked up what I think was an old American Indycar Series chassis which looked close enough at speed when painted in the right colors. But it had a big engine, no pop-off valve, slightly bigger tunnels, a softer tire, etc.

It may be the exaggeration of nostalgia but I think it went quicker than a normal spec CART car around Sebring and may have gone into lap record territory? And they did it all for less than it would have cost to rent and run the Reynard-Honda for the day.

[kikiturbo2]

No downhill but the anchors are worked hard, don't let the uphill part fool you although it's fair to say theres not a "end of the back straight at Spa" type braking spot.

Theres a few in cars around the net to see just how quick they are going - 120kmh average over 20km's of windy bits isn't hanging around.

You won't get much better than this one ...

http://www.streetfir...ter_2047523.htm

I like the old times while it was still gravel..

http://www.streetfir...peak_180598.htm

[cheapracer]

I like the old times while it was still gravel..

http://www.streetfir...peak_180598.htm

Surprisingly they haven't reduced that time by very much even though it's now 50% asphalt.

Make me wonder if the Pug and Ari came back out with the same car and the better tyres over the period of time combined with the extra asphalt if he couldn't break the 10 minutes - I think he did a 10.14 on 90% dirt(?)

One thing that annoys me about "Climb Dancer" is that the sound is often mismatched to the gears/car - and it won awards ....

Edited by cheapracer, 08 June 2011 - 12:23.

[Magoo]

McGuire, at least I think it was him, had an anecdote about this. But either my searching is stupid or it's located in the first few million posts that have temporarily been removed from the BB to fix a database issue.

It was just an idea he had, or more of an observation. If you took an old '90s Champ Car chassis, threw in some big ridiculous hot rod V8, threw away the rulebook and lashed together an aero package, etc, the result would outperform any F1 car there ever was or ever will be. It's more of an observation about rulebooks and technical restrictions than anything. The rulebook defines the operating box. Throw away the box or substitute a different box and it's a different game.

He had another idea that came somewhat closer to fruition... get an old used Cup car, hack off the roof, narrow the body, and extend the tail, throw in some other big ridiculous hot rod V8, and go for the world closed course speed record. Had it all lined up too, the car, the engine, a decent associate sponsor to pick up the operating expenses... but he couldn't get a tire company to come within 50 feet of it. They wouldn't even SELL him tires. The car was sold and ran pretty well in ARCA for a few years reskinned as a Dodge.

[MatsNorway]

Sounds similar to the problems Pollymotorsport had with their 1400hp pontiac. He tried to get the veyron tires but when the lady in the phone asked for some veyron number he said he didn`t have one. He never got a hand on those tires..

But he still beat the veyron. What tires he used i don`t know but it was on the Nardo track. vid on the tube too.

[Canuck]

What's with tire companies?

[smitten]

What's with tire companies?

Liability!

[Canuck]

So where do Bonneville tires come from?

[MatsNorway]

Make me wonder if the Pug and Ari came back out with the same car and the better tyres over the period of time combined with the extra asphalt if he couldn't break the 10 minutes - I think he did a 10.14 on 90% dirt(?)

yea.
Personally i don`t understand why rod millens car hasn`t been updated a bit and given a go.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

More of the RS200 of mark rennison.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Not really impressed by both car and driver im afraid. the 0-23X goes at 6 secs they claim.. thats a impressive number.. but it needs a new driver.

Looking trought videos it seems there is a very good flow in the driving on dirt compared to the tarmac. On tarmac its like the cars aren`t set up with balance and ease of driving in corners in mind. just a bunch of banging on the rpm limit, spitting and cackling.. doesn`t look like they are attacking the corners..

And last.. why!!! isnt anyone doing both supercharging and turbo charging!!?
it isn`t rocket science..

http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=547s

Edited by MatsNorway, 08 June 2011 - 19:34.

[Magoo]

So where do Bonneville tires come from?

Goodyear does a production run every 43 years and racers write their sets into their wills.

Anyway, the max load rating of the LSR tire is only 1700 lbs, the section width is only 7 inches, and the thread is designed for mushy salt, so it wouldn't be suitable for an oval application with a big old stock car.

[kikiturbo2]

Surprisingly they haven't reduced that time by very much even though it's now 50% asphalt.

Make me wonder if the Pug and Ari came back out with the same car and the better tyres over the period of time combined with the extra asphalt if he couldn't break the 10 minutes - I think he did a 10.14 on 90% dirt(?)

One thing that annoys me about "Climb Dancer" is that the sound is often mismatched to the gears/car - and it won awards ....

oh well.. artistic licence..

btw, if anyone wants a DVD quality version let me know.. I managed to get a hold of the original Beta tape..

[kikiturbo2]

And last.. why!!! isnt anyone doing both supercharging and turbo charging!!?
it isn`t rocket science..

http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=547s

with modern antilag systems there is no need really..

[gruntguru]

I imagine the reason the times haven't improved that much with the extra asphalt sections is tyres. They still need to run dirt tyres and the grip on the asphalt sections is nowhere near what could be achieved with slicks.

Regarding availability of tyres to suit the F1 beating fantasy car - shouldn't be that difficullt. There is a huge range of racing slicks on the market covering (almost) every concievable need. Just build the car and select rims to suit the available tyres. Tyres should in fact be an area of advantage over current F1's. I bet there are readily available tyres that would improve F1 lap times. New rims, tyres, setup and watch the lap times tumble.

[GBarclay]

McGuire, at least I think it was him, had an anecdote about this. But either my searching is stupid or it's located in the first few million posts that have temporarily been removed from the BB to fix a database issue.

But the basic story was in 99 Montoya's personal sponsor, a Colombian beer company, wanted to get some footage for a commercial. It was too expensive to run his CART car for the day so they mocked up what I think was an old American Indycar Series chassis which looked close enough at speed when painted in the right colors. But it had a big engine, no pop-off valve, slightly bigger tunnels, a softer tire, etc.

It may be the exaggeration of nostalgia but I think it went quicker than a normal spec CART car around Sebring and may have gone into lap record territory? And they did it all for less than it would have cost to rent and run the Reynard-Honda for the day.

I engineered the "replica" car that Montoya drove at Sebring, it was an early 90's Lola converted to run a Buick Turbo motor (some were branded as Menard Motors), had originally run a Cosworth. No blow off valve, probably around 850HP, far larger tunnels than the car of the day, even short skirts on the undertray. IIRC, the tires used may have been the Hoosiers that were produced for Sprint Car pavement racing. Very soft, good for only 50 or 60 miles, and came up to temp right away. Perfect for the American Indy Car series events of the day which were short ovals or short races on road courses.

Ran the car quite soft because Sebring is so bumpy, and if I recall correctly, there were no sway bars hooked up when the commercial was shot ( I think because of fabrication or parts issues, not for engineering reasons, I do recall being heck of a rushed getting the car ready). JPM was about 1.5 seconds faster a lap than they had been a few weeks before at the official CART test. I do recall him saying the car was one that was really easy to drive compared to the 99's. The tunnels on the late 90's cars were a lot smaller than the late 80's early 90's cars

[GBarclay]

I honestly think that a mid-80's IMSA style racer may be the way to head for Pikes Peak, certainly for 2012 and beyond. Huge tunnels to develop clean down force is the key, take a look at Monster's car, and now Dallenbach's car.

Start line is over 9000 feet, finish line approx 14 100 feet, 156 turns in 12.5 miles, only 2.65 miles of dirt left between Picnic Grounds and Glenn Cove.

There are at least three corners that are slightly downhill on entry, but really not of significance.

You do need good brakes, there are at least 20 significant braking episodes (in our Mini Cooper S that is only about 1106 HP shy of Dallenbach's car), and not unheard of to run out of brakes - Gronholm, 2009, but that may have been mechanical / resulting crash damage rather than overuse

Most important though is respect for the mountain, and seat time. This is not an event to be taken lightly, and the more runs a driver has, the more he can push the car. The inexperienced driver who pushes will see the trees at Engineers Corner, or one of the many other places on the mountain that can humble an effort.

Condition of the dirt at testing this last weekend was awful, really bad. But will be compacted and sprayed before race day, and with two days of other classes running, before we qualify on the bottom section I would not be surprised to see a blue groove form on the dirt.

Ironically, the pavement has made the race course more difficult. Instead of a wide three lane dirt road with a cushion and soft edges, it is now a little over two lanes wide, but with Armco in places, and now serious drainage ditches on entry and exit to many of the turns.

Will post more when I have time

This remains one of the last true motorsports challenges available on the planet.

[bigleagueslider]

The fastest cars on Pike's Peak are the unlimited class. As others noted, a 2.4L N/A V8 would be making very little power by the time it reached the finish line at 14,110 feet ASL. That's why these guys use turbocharging.

An F1 chassis relies heavily on underbody aerodynamics for grip, and thus would not likely handle the rough dirt road surface very well, with its low ride height. That's why the Pike's Peak unlimited class cars use massive, multi-element front/rear wings. The Pike's Peak course also consists of lots of low-speed, low-grip corners, with short straights. So there is no need for high straightline speeds. And the carbon brakes of the F1 car would also not be of benefit on the dirt sections.

A good time at Pike's Peak is only about 11 minutes. One clever approach that I saw recently was an electric drivetrain. Perfect traction control and throttle response, combined with no loss of power at altitude. 11 minutes of battery power shouldn't be too heavy, right?

Or better yet, how about a chemical engine? A high-speed, piston swash plate motor, that uses high-pressure gas created from a chemical reaction, from something like hydrogen peroxide and a catalyst bed. The fuel load would be small, the power would be massive, and the drivetrain would be incredibly light.

It is an unlimited class.......

slider

[MatsNorway]

with modern antilag systems there is no need really..

I hear that bs all the time... yet we still see the cars downshifting going OUT of he corners.. to low on the revs and need to get the turbo going..

Can trow all the fuel you want into the exhaust.. if the engine doesn`t deliver enough air off throttle it won`t help.

ofc it would help if they run a electronic throttle valve.. and map it similar to what f1 does today for other reasons.

But the best would probably be something like the umluft that Audi made.

i see usage for such a system on no limit classes. big fat bypass valves that dropp air into the exhaust off throttle. a dash of fuel and vòila! turbo becomes turbine maintaining rpm on its own.

not unlikely that the Audi S1 had the umluft system going up there in 87.

Besides... you could also run the supercharger and turbo in serial giving you boost levels unheard of with just a turbo...


The thruth.

This remains one of the last true motorsports challenges available on the planet.

Edited by MatsNorway, 09 June 2011 - 06:46.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Anyone downshifting coming out of a corner isn't doing it right. It's not an anti-lag issue but an anti-skill issue.

[MatsNorway]

Anyone downshifting coming out of a corner isn't doing it right. It's not an anti-lag issue but an anti-skill issue.

I would normally agree but if the engine curve on the Escudo in GT5 was real these cars are tricky to drive.

the RS200 of mark rennison has a 2.3L at 1150hp it has probably a bit of a steep power curve compared to the bigger suzuki v6 with lower power.

To hes defence he did the downshift at practise. but at the full run he did`t have a good exit either. the engine was seeminlgy too low on revs.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related If he had a supercharger as well he would have gone throught that corner like the other rallycars with their less extreme engines.

Monster showing how its done.
http://www.youtube.c...Dbjid1iA#t=215s

[OfficeLinebacker]

I engineered the "replica" car that Montoya drove at Sebring, it was an early 90's Lola converted to run a Buick Turbo motor (some were branded as Menard Motors), had originally run a Cosworth. No blow off valve, probably around 850HP, far larger tunnels than the car of the day, even short skirts on the undertray. IIRC, the tires used may have been the Hoosiers that were produced for Sprint Car pavement racing. Very soft, good for only 50 or 60 miles, and came up to temp right away. Perfect for the American Indy Car series events of the day which were short ovals or short races on road courses.

Ran the car quite soft because Sebring is so bumpy, and if I recall correctly, there were no sway bars hooked up when the commercial was shot ( I think because of fabrication or parts issues, not for engineering reasons, I do recall being heck of a rushed getting the car ready). JPM was about 1.5 seconds faster a lap than they had been a few weeks before at the official CART test. I do recall him saying the car was one that was really easy to drive compared to the 99's. The tunnels on the late 90's cars were a lot smaller than the late 80's early 90's cars

Very cool story. Thanks.

[kikiturbo2]

I hear that bs all the time... yet we still see the cars downshifting going OUT of he corners.. to low on the revs and need to get the turbo going..

Can trow all the fuel you want into the exhaust.. if the engine doesn`t deliver enough air off throttle it won`t help.

ofc it would help if they run a electronic throttle valve.. and map it similar to what f1 does today for other reasons.

But the best would probably be something like the umluft that Audi made.

i see usage for such a system on no limit classes. big fat bypass valves that dropp air into the exhaust off throttle. a dash of fuel and vòila! turbo becomes turbine maintaining rpm on its own.

not unlikely that the Audi S1 had the umluft system going up there in 87.

Besides... you could also run the supercharger and turbo in serial giving you boost levels unheard of with just a turbo...


The thruth.

modern antilag uses a special valve to bypass air straight into the exhaust manifold.... been in use since group A times.. hell, even gr. N mitsubishis have the system, straight from the factory..

supercharger is a nice thing, but turbo will give you all the air you need.. no need for a power sapping supercharger..

Edited by kikiturbo2, 09 June 2011 - 19:05.

[cheapracer]

Ironically, the pavement has made the race course more difficult. Instead of a wide three lane dirt road with a cushion and soft edges, it is now a little over two lanes wide, but with Armco in places, and now serious drainage ditches on entry and exit to many of the turns.

Ahh that would explain it.

Have been hoping to run there for the last 30 years, will get there maybe next year or the year after.

[MatsNorway]

modern antilag uses a special valve to bypass air straight into the exhaust manifold.... been in use since group A times.. hell, even gr. N mitsubishis have the system, straight from the factory..

supercharger is a nice thing, but turbo will give you all the air you need.. no need for a power sapping supercharger..

So what you are saying is that the RS200 doesn`t have that bypass? because he is fiddling with the clutch or something going thru that corner.

[Ross Stonefeld]

This is the best Pikes Peak video going currently

[kikiturbo2]

So what you are saying is that the RS200 doesn`t have that bypass? because he is fiddling with the clutch or something going thru that corner.

well, it would be nice to look under that bonnet..... What I am saying is that WRC cars have boost all the time..