22 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

A quick few questions.

Was there any particular reason why in Group 6, you had to have an open cockpit, in Group C, you had to have a closed cockpit and finally with the advent of WSC, then returned to open cockpits again ?

Also, was Group 6 cars that much faster than the production based Group 5 Coupes ?


I cannot fathom for instance why the FIA, after Group C decided to flip things completely on it's head and go from Coupe's to open tops for the WSC in 1992.

[arttidesco]

Best person to ask Mr Balestre about the reason for the changes, IIRC the best Group 6 cars were faster than the best Group 5 cars at most tracks because of a combination of weight and fuel consumption advantages, though the 935/78 Mody Dick could probably hold it's own in an outright speed match with the 936 I doubt it would have accelerated or handled the corners so well.

Group C seems to have come into being primarily at the behest of Le Mans who introduced their own GTP regulations around 1978 (?) for closed vehicles running to a fuel consumption formula which restricted engine development and associated costs.

Somewhere around 1990 some bright spark thought it would be cool to introduce a sportscar series powered by Formula One derived technology just as this had proved a catastrophe 20 years earlier history was to repeat itself, apart from Peugeot nobody really took the 3.5 litre Sports Car series seriously which resulted in a pathetic 31 car entry at Le Mans in 1992, I suspect the open top Group C vehicles were encouraged thereafter to keep grids alive at Le Mans until the GT1 series came along.

[Allen Brown]

Also, was Group 6 cars that much faster than the production based Group 5 Coupes ?

If you're talking about late 1970s Group 5, it was not production based at all, it was a silhouette class.

[Red Socks]

Hmm , Group 5 cars had to be based on a homologated group 1-4 car except in its first year.

Edited by Red Socks, 15 June 2011 - 16:42.

[Allen Brown]

Look Red Socks, you can't come on this forum and contradict long-serving and highly respected posters such as this "Allen Brown" character at post 3 simply because he is talking utter bollocks. And phoning me up to very gently and diplomatically tell me that I'm wrong is merely sweetening the pill.

There is a long tradition on TNF of people talking about things of which they know nothing - and me talking about cars with roofs is perfectly in line with that long tradition.

So yes, I was completely and utterly wrong, but I don't see why I shouldn't have got away with it.

[E1pix]

I cannot fathom for instance why the FIA, after Group C decided to flip things completely on it's head and go from Coupe's to open tops for the WSC in 1992.

IMHO.... the late-80s machines were setting speed trap records but were also getting pricey. I seem to recall the FIA quoting then that with open cockpits one could watch the drivers at work, like in F1, and thus fan interest would follow. History seems to bear out that whenever the FIA creates a formula that works, they then change the rules and get it wrong for the next several years.

A bit off topic but related, the upcoming F1 turbo idea will prove to be another bad direction. In an era of cost-cutting, how that one will cut costs is beyond me.

My whining aside, they have given us our sport's greatest series for some time.... so I can't be too mad for too long.

Edited by E1pix, 15 June 2011 - 17:27.

[Ali_G]

IMHO.... the late-80s machines were setting speed trap records but were also getting pricey. I seem to recall the FIA quoting then that with open cockpits one could watch the drivers at work, like in F1, and thus fan interest would follow. History seems to bear out that whenever the FIA creates a formula that works, they then change the rules and get it wrong for the next several years.

I would imagine that the vast majority of the most popular sportscars of all time were Coupes. I can't think of any open top car which I would deem particularly graceful.

[E1pix]

I would imagine that the vast majority of the most popular sportscars of all time were Coupes. I can't think of any open top car which I would deem particularly graceful.

The Ferrari 333SP came pretty darned close. That aside, .

[Jesper O. Hansen]

A quick few questions.

Was there any particular reason why in Group 6, you had to have an open cockpit, in Group C, you had to have a closed cockpit and finally with the advent of WSC, then returned to open cockpits again ?

Also, was Group 6 cars that much faster than the production based Group 5 Coupes ?


I cannot fathom for instance why the FIA, after Group C decided to flip things completely on it's head and go from Coupe's to open tops for the WSC in 1992.

The Group 6 cars didn't have to be open cars, but running to very low weight limits an open car was lighter than a closed coupé, giving them an advantage. Group C was to some extent based on the Le Mans GTP catagory from about 1976. Rondeau and WM-Peugeot produced cars for LM GTP from the beginning to the advent of Group C introduced as an FIA catagory in 1982. The closed coupé design was to give the cars the overall look of 1960s classics like the Ford GT40s, Ferrari P2/P3/P4s, Chaparrals and Porsche 917s.

The open top WSC catagory was introduced by IMSA for their main championship for 1994 and has nothing to do with the FIA Group C cars, but rather as a replacement for the IMSA GTP class - which has a fluent common origin with Group C via the Le Mans GTP class! The open top design of the IMSA WSC was to benefit from another great past spors car succes, Can-Am cars of the 1960s and 1970s.

Jesper

[Ali_G]

The Group 6 cars didn't have to be open cars, but running to very low weight limits an open car was lighter than a closed coupé, giving them an advantage. Group C was to some extent based on the Le Mans GTP catagory from about 1976. Rondeau and WM-Peugeot produced cars for LM GTP from the beginning to the advent of Group C introduced as an FIA catagory in 1982. The closed coupé design was to give the cars the overall look of 1960s classics like the Ford GT40s, Ferrari P2/P3/P4s, Chaparrals and Porsche 917s.

The open top WSC catagory was introduced by IMSA for their main championship for 1994 and has nothing to do with the FIA Group C cars, but rather as a replacement for the IMSA GTP class - which has a fluent common origin with Group C via the Le Mans GTP class! The open top design of the IMSA WSC was to benefit from another great past spors car succes, Can-Am cars of the 1960s and 1970s.

Jesper

On the flip side. Did Group C cars strictly have to be coupe's or was it just better that way design wise ?

[arttidesco]

I do not know for a fact that Group C had to be closed cockpit but if it did not then IMHO the fuel consumption rules would certainly have favoured the reduced aerodynamic drag afforded by closed cockpit cars.

[La Sarthe]

On the flip side. Did Group C cars strictly have to be coupe's or was it just better that way design wise ?

There was a minimum cockpit/windscreen height that in effect dictated a closed coupe. If you remember the early Nimrod Aston Martins that were designed before the Group C regs came into effect, they had to have a little extension, looking like a taxi light, added to the top of the windscreen to make them comply for the 1982 season.

[arttidesco]

If you remember the early Nimrod Aston Martins that were designed before the Group C regs came into effect, they had to have a little extension, looking like a taxi light, added to the top of the windscreen to make them comply for the 1982 season.

All the memories come flooding back now

Not my pic but the taxi light is clearly illustrated here

[JacnGille]

The Ferrari 333SP came pretty darned close. That aside, .

My list has the Ferrari 312P and the Porsche 908-3.

[doc knutsen]

Best person to ask Mr Balestre about the reason for the changes, IIRC the best Group 6 cars were faster than the best Group 5 cars at most tracks because of a combination of weight and fuel consumption advantages, though the 935/78 Mody Dick could probably hold it's own in an outright speed match with the 936 I doubt it would have accelerated or handled the corners so well.

Group C seems to have come into being primarily at the behest of Le Mans who introduced their own GTP regulations around 1978 (?) for closed vehicles running to a fuel consumption formula which restricted engine development and associated costs.

Somewhere around 1990 some bright spark thought it would be cool to introduce a sportscar series powered by Formula One derived technology just as this had proved a catastrophe 20 years earlier history was to repeat itself, apart from Peugeot nobody really took the 3.5 litre Sports Car series seriously which resulted in a pathetic 31 car entry at Le Mans in 1992, I suspect the open top Group C vehicles were encouraged thereafter to keep grids alive at Le Mans until the GT1 series came along.

"Some bright spark" did not like the fact that, in 1990, the names of Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar and Porsche were heavily involved in Group C instead of in Formula One. The introduction of the 3.5 liter multicylinder race engines made Jaguar use the Ford V8, while Peugeot, Toyota and Mercedes-Benz took the huge cost of designing and building 3.5 liter engines. At the same time, there was a considerable price hike in hospitality and advertising to "align sports cars with Formula One"...which, as intended, drove away the privateers (C2 had been axed as well) that had in the past sustained sports car racing through lean periods. After one disastrous season, Gr C was axed, leaving some high-profile manufacturers with all-new 3.5 litre multi cylinder power units...but no race series in which to run... But wait a minute...there is one racing series that uses multi-cylinder 3.5 liter engines...Formula One, it is called. What a wonderful coincidence.

[arttidesco]

"Some bright spark" did not like the fact that, in 1990, the names of Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar and Porsche were heavily involved in Group C instead of in Formula One. The introduction of the 3.5 liter multicylinder race engines made Jaguar use the Ford V8, while Peugeot, Toyota and Mercedes-Benz took the huge cost of designing and building 3.5 liter engines. At the same time, there was a considerable price hike in hospitality and advertising to "align sports cars with Formula One"...which, as intended, drove away the privateers (C2 had been axed as well) that had in the past sustained sports car racing through lean periods. After one disastrous season, Gr C was axed, leaving some high-profile manufacturers with all-new 3.5 litre multi cylinder power units...but no race series in which to run... But wait a minute...there is one racing series that uses multi-cylinder 3.5 liter engines...Formula One, it is called. What a wonderful coincidence.

Gosh ! I had forgotten how bright the 'spark' really was !

Edited by arttidesco, 16 June 2011 - 20:14.

[Henri Greuter]

Gosh ! I had forgotten how bright the 'spark' really was !

Not mentioning the fact that this `spark` was also involved with how low distance racing was to be organized in the years after 1990......
And this `spark` also fearing the increasing popularity of CART.....

There was talk at the Speedway in 1991 of introducing a new engine formula for CART, also using 3.5 liter atmo engines....
"Since there would be a number of those available within some time....."




Henri

[Graham Gauld]

There was a minimum cockpit/windscreen height that in effect dictated a closed coupe. If you remember the early Nimrod Aston Martins that were designed before the Group C regs came into effect, they had to have a little extension, looking like a taxi light, added to the top of the windscreen to make them comply for the 1982 season.

All too true because when Ecurie Ecosse came back into racing in 1984 our car was designed around the Aston Martin Nimrod and we had terrible trouble at Le Mansd that year because Alain Bertaut , the FIA inspector, ruled that our Ecosse car was illegal during scrutineering. We objected to this for if I remember corr4ectly the cubic dimensions of the cockpit were correct it was the length breadth and height measurements that did not match. It was stalemate until someone rememberede an FIA ruling in Formula 1 that a driver had to be able to get out of the cockpit of the car within 5 seconds. We put forward the suggestion that if our driver could be strapped into the Group C2 Coupe and then get out in five seconds then surely this would allow us to race. Remarkably the scrutineers agreed and so Mike Wilds donned full racing kit , still int he park where scrutineering is held, and was belted into the car. The doors on the Ecosse were secured by pins and sdo two mechanics stood at the drivers side to catch the door when Mike pushed it out and the signal was given. Mike made it it uner 5 seconds and we were allowed to race but were told by Alain that the car could not race again in any FIA World Championship Group C2 races which is why it did not appear again that season. As it turned out the car crashed and burst into flames at Brands Hatch a few weeks later and was destroyed but Ray Mallock was able to get out unscratched. Two completely new tubs were built for 1985 to the correct dimensions and I have photos of Alain Bertaut with the new tub after giving it his approval. Picture below with Ray Mallock, Alain Bertaut, David Duffield and David Leslie and Mike Wilds in the seat.

[/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[LittleChris]

All too true because when Ecurie Ecosse came back into racing in 1984 our car was designed around the Aston Martin Nimrod and we had terrible trouble at Le Mansd that year because Alain Bertaut , the FIA inspector, ruled that our Ecosse car was illegal during scrutineering. We objected to this for if I remember corr4ectly the cubic dimensions of the cockpit were correct it was the length breadth and height measurements that did not match. It was stalemate until someone rememberede an FIA ruling in Formula 1 that a driver had to be able to get out of the cockpit of the car within 5 seconds. We put forward the suggestion that if our driver could be strapped into the Group C2 Coupe and then get out in five seconds then surely this would allow us to race. Remarkably the scrutineers agreed and so Mike Wilds donned full racing kit , still int he park where scrutineering is held, and was belted into the car. The doors on the Ecosse were secured by pins and sdo two mechanics stood at the drivers side to catch the door when Mike pushed it out and the signal was given. Mike made it it uner 5 seconds and we were allowed to race but were told by Alain that the car could not race again in any FIA World Championship Group C2 races which is why it did not appear again that season. As it turned out the car crashed and burst into flames at Brands Hatch a few weeks later and was destroyed but Ray Mallock was able to get out unscratched. Two completely new tubs were built for 1985 to the correct dimensions and I have photos of Alain Bertaut with the new tub after giving it his approval. Picture below with Ray Mallock, Alain Bertaut, David Duffield and David Leslie and Mike Wilds in the seat.

[/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Had a real feeling of deja vu seeing the photo . Was it published in Autosport at the time Graham ?

Edited by LittleChris, 17 June 2011 - 20:29.

[E1pix]

My list has the Ferrari 312P and the Porsche 908-3.

312P, My Bad, tremendous!

[E1pix]

The open top design of the IMSA WSC was to benefit from another great past spors car succes, Can-Am cars of the 1960s and 1970s.

Sadly, it didn't work out that way. You're right, though, that was IMSA's thinking....

I did the graphics on the Motorola Spice car and the Olds Cutlass' in '94 and '95.... for another Thread perhaps, but what happened to Jeremy Dale at Road Atlanta will haunt me forever.

[Graham Gauld]

Had a real feeling of deja vu seeing the photo . Was it published in Autosport at the time Graham ?

No I don't think I sent the photo out to any of the magazines but I honestly do not recall though I may have done as we wanted everyone to know that we had built two new tubs to the correct dimensions.

[LittleChris]

Perhaps Mike Wilds always assumed the same position / grin when being photographed in a tub and I saw a different one.

Away from home this weekend but looks like next week after work will be spent in the loft going through 1980's Autosports - obsessive, moi ? Peut-etre