83 replies to this topic

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Does anyone of you know the nationality of the following drivers who drove formula 2-cars in the seventies:

Max Bonnin
Antonio Prado
Tom Bagley
José Chateaubriand
Ewald Boisitz
Hans Meier
Charlie Kyser/Kiser
Bernhard Wissler
Dietmar Flöer
Hans Walther
Nico Nicole
Willi Lovato
Bernard Chevanne
Howdy Holmes
Stanislaus/Stanislao Sterzel
Norman Dickson
Kurt Müller
Luis de Almenera

Any help would be great.
Another thing - has there been 2 Herbert Müller? The well known Swiss sportscar-racer with Scuderia Filipinetti and another one, a German?

All The Best
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net
http://user.tninet.s...1w/F2_Index.htm

[Paul Hartshorne]

Bagley & Holmes are from the U.S.A., Dickson is Australian.

Those are the only three that I know off-hand!

[fines]

Charlie Kiser is Swiss, and I believe Bernhard Wissler and Hans Meier also. Meier could be Austrian, though. Willi Lovato is almost certainly Italian.

[David M. Kane]

Tom Bagley was known primarily as a Formula Super Vee driver, Howdy Holmes, on the other hand did Formula Super
Vee, Formula Atlantic and Indy cars. In 1978 he and Bobby Rahal both did the Monaco F3 race. Rahal in a Dallara-Wolf
and Howdy in a Fred Opert entry Chevron. Fred Opert was the US agent for Chevron Cars. He spent a few years running
a serious F2 effort using his star driver, New Zealander
Bret Hawthorne. Bret, unfortunately, was killed in one of those ugly armco accident that seemed to dominate the '70s.

Bret was very, very fast and had a very bright future.

[fines]

David, didn't Bagley also run in FAtlantic and Indycars, and wasn't Hawthorne's first name Bert (not Bret)?

[jarama]

Stefan,

Luis de Almenara (that's the correct spell) is/was Spanish.

[Marcor]

Bernard Chevanne: often associated to Xavier Lapeyre, surely French.

[Francis]

Nico Nicole was German. He spent alot of time in the late '70s racing in Japan.

[David McKinney]

Surely Norman Dickson was Scottish?
Bert Hawthorne did most (if not all) of his F2 with Allan McCall's Tui team, but raced F/Atlantic (when it was still FB?) for Opert. Opert ran Chevrons in F2 for many years, notably with Rosberg but with many others as well

[David M. Kane]

Fines, you are correct it was Bert Hawthorne. I'm sure Bagley did Formula Atlantic, I only remember as a Super Vee
driver. I'm obviously having a senior moment.

[Barry Lake]

David McKinney
I don't know if Norman Dickson was Scottish, but I am almost certain he wasn't/isn't Australian.

[Paul Hartshorne]

Boy is my face red!

Yes, Norman Dickson is from Scotland, from Forres to be exact. Maybe it's because his official entrant was Dickson's of Perth that confused me! That's my excuse anyway (for those that don't know, there are towns called Perth in both Scotland and Australia).

Anyway, as penance I've dug out my 1975 Silverstone F2 programme (August 31st race) and found the following:

Antonio Prado = Brazil
Max Bonnin = France
Hans Meier = Austria
Ewald Boisitz = Austria

Forgiven?

[David McKinney]

If you were as old as some of us , Paul, you'd remember that excellent Scottish driver Tommy Dickson, who raced cars entered by Team Lotus, Ecurie Ecosse and...Dickson's of Perth. Norman was his son

[Ray Bell]

Not only Scotland and Australia, Paul, but also in Tasmania!

6 miles from Mountford Corner, if my memory of the signs in the background as Matich sailed by with a wheel locked is correct.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by jarama
Stefan,

Luis de Almenara (that's the correct spell) is/was Spanish.

Just to confirm the above. You´ll find his name spelt like Luis or Luis María. Both seem to be correct. You´ll also find sometimes the name of the entrant in the 1975 F2 series as "Juandó". Please bear in mind that the full name of the driver was/is (no reason to believe that he is not with us) Luis María de Almenara Juandó and that is quite usual for us to use both names, the family name of the father followed by the family name of the mother (exactly the opposite, as I understand, as our Portuguese colleagues do).
The point is that "Juandó" is a family name, and the name of the entrant like "Juandó de Almenara" might be either a mistake, either the family name of his mother! (Also it was quite usual for married women, instead of changing their maiden names when married, to adopt a formula like "Firstname Maidenname DE familynameofthehusband"). I´m just having fun here, I am not sure if the mother of Luis had anything to do with his racing career or it´s just a mistake...

Thanks for the site, Stefan!

Felix (Muelas Sanz de Andino)

[David McKinney]

So, Ray, Tasmania has finally seceded from Australia?

[Ray Bell]

No, but I had to take the mickey out of you somehow!

I don't think Tasmania would want to secede, but there are those in Australia who would want to cast it free...

Regarding Matich and the locked wheel, he had the same suspension breakage as Bonnier did, now I think that was at Zandvoort in 64.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Thank you all for your help. This is a really great forum, not only do I get help for my F2-site, I also learn a lot of geography about foreign countries and how names are used in some other places. (should be a happy yellow smiley in here, but I have not figured out how to do, yet...). I love this site. Whish I had found it much earlier.

Felix, how about Francesco "Chico" Godia Sales, sometimes Sales is omitted?

Paul, do you have your Silverstone-programme at hand? What was the March factory team called in 1975? Elf March Engineering?

All The Best
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net

[Paul Hartshorne]

My programme says Elf Team March, car 15 = Patrick Tambay, car 16 = Michel Leclere.

I have lots of old F2 programmes to trade. If you're interested Stefan, contact me by private message or email.

For smilie-faces, click on smilies on the left when posting a reply, and it explains how to do it

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Felix, how about Francesco "Chico" Godia Sales, sometimes Sales is omitted?

Don´t tempt me too much or I´ll end up opening a thread on Godia...

Two basic things here : his name was Francisco Godia Sales. If you wonder why he did not use his second name (Sales) just bear in mind that, although we bear the two names in our ID card, nobody forces us to use them!;)

Second, his nickname was never (or at least as "never" as I am aware of) "Chico". I have wondered for years where the "Chico" came from, but definitely that was not something that either he invented or was known to use. His nickname, and a very classical way of calling the Franciscos in Spain, was "Paco".

To summarize, he was known by all of us, and has remained like that after his death (including a Foundation in his native Barcelona, if I am not mistaken) as Paco Godia.

And now that you tempt me, this is how my name shows on my ID card : Felix Francisco Muelas Sanz de Andino, but I only use it like that when I want to differentiate myself from my late grandfather, my father or my son : all Felix Muelas, but you know that we don´t use numbers over here

Felix

[fines]

Felix, then what about Pedro Martínez de la Rosa? Following your 'rules' Martínez would be his fathers family name and DLR his mothers, so should we call him Pedro Martínez henceforth? And btw, is Martínez then the family name his father adopted from his grand-father or the one he adopted from his grand-mother? Or is DLR the family name he adopted from his mother who adopted it from her fathers second family name which was the one HIS mother used as first... [fines is taken away by white-jacketed men with straight faces]

[Ray Bell]

Europe, a friend of mine repeatedly told me, is crazy because it's populated entirely by New Australians*

Same friend, a motoring journo too, used to reckon that madness was caused by proximity to the Mediterranean.

(* New Australians - the nicest term used to describe European settlers in our country in the fifties and sixties)

[Rainer Nyberg]

How about :
Don Alfonso Cabeza de Vacade y Leighton, Carvajal y Are, 13th Conde de Majorada, 17th Marquis de Portago ?

John Colum Crichton-Stuart, Earl of Dumfries ?

The aristocracy too always tend to have lenghty names...
Luckily they used abbreviated verions when racing...

Felix Muelas III ?


Rainer

[fines]

Originally posted by Francis
Nico Nicole was German.

Never heard that, are you sure? If so his name was almost certainly a pseudonym, 'Nicole' sounding the same as 'Nie Kohle' which would loosely translate into 'Never owns money'!

It would also suggest that he raced in Germany at one time or another, but I've never heard of him other than racing in Japanese F2.

[Ray Bell]

Your loose translations are always a lot of fun, FEE-nes!

[jarama]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal

Felix, how about Francesco "Chico" Godia Sales, sometimes Sales is omitted?

Stefan,

maybe you're mistaking Francisco Godia with Chico Landi, isn't it?

[jarama]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


To summarize, he was known by all of us, and has remained like that after his death (including a Foundation in his native Barcelona, if I am not mistaken) as [B]Paco Godia

If anyone is interested in visiting some day this museum, mixing valuable art and racing items, this is the address:

Fundación Francisco Godia
c/ València, 284
Barcelona
opening hours, 10h-20h.
WED to MON

[jarama]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
[B]How about :
Don Alfonso Cabeza de Vacade y Leighton, Carvajal y Are, 13th Conde de Majorada, 17th Marquis de Portago ?

Rainer,

This is the correct spelling:
Don Alfonso Cabeza de Vaca y Leighton, XVII Marqués de Portago, Grande de España y XIII Conde de La Mejorada... easy, isn't it?

[Ray Bell]

More Mediterranean influence!

[Gil Bouffard]

I suppose you guys are gonna get on to Ayrton Senna Da Silva or Roberto Pupo Moreno. We might also get into C.A.S. Brooks, J.M. Hawthorn and the ever popular C.A.S. Chapman.

Gil Bouffard, The Only.

[Paul Hartshorne]

A.C.B. Chapman, hence the famous Lotus monogram badge, and don't forget S.M.B. Hailwood!

[David McKinney]

Taking Fon de Portago a step further:
Don Alfonso Antonio Vicente Blas Ángel Francisco Borjia Cabeza de Vaca y Leighton, Carvajal y Are, XVII Marqués de Portago, Marquis de Moratalla, XIII Conde de La Mejorada, Conde de Pernia, Duke of Alagon, Grandee of Spain (if I may switch between languages).
And, although I don’t have proof to hand, I believe Carel Godin de Beaufort had as many forenames, but perhaps not so many titles.

John Colum Crichton-Stuart was Earl of Dumfried when he was racing, but has now succeeded to the title of Marquis of Bute.

Sorting out the British aristocracy and their titles is great fun, especially as they sometimes change their names. To quote two examples from 1930s motor industry ciircles, Sir Herbert Austin became Lord Austin, but Sir William Morris chose to be styled Lord Nuffield.
The most confusion arises at the more exalted levels, where the noble in question has several titles, and one of the lesser ones is used by his heir until he assumes the senior title on the death of his father. Thus in 1973 Lord Angus Clydesdale, who raced in sportscar and historic events in the 1960s and 70s, became Angus Alan Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, 15th Duke of Hamilton, Marquis of Douglas and Clydesdale, Earl of Angus, Arran and Lanark, Lord Avon, Polmont, Machanshire etc, 12th Duke of Brandon and Baron of Dutton.
Anoher example. Freddy March, who raced Austin 7s and MGs at Brooklands, was actually the Earl of March, but became Duke of Richmond and Gordon on the death of his father in 1935. He was then Frederick Charles Gordon-Lennox, 9th Duke of Richmond, Earl of March, Baron Settringham, 9th Duke of Lennox, Earl of Darnley, Baron Torbolton, 4th Duke of Gordon and Earl of Kinrara and Duke d'Aubigny.
The present Duke’s son is the Earl of March, more formally Earl of March and Kinrara. Before his father graduated from Earl of March to Duke of Richmond and Gordon, the younger man was known as Lord Settringham.

[David McKinney]

(Actually, not a lot of those raced F2 in the 1970s....)

[Rob29]

Re Nico Nicole; I have never heard of this person,although I have been an avid fan of F2 since 1953.I asume he must have been a back marker in Nippon F2. Does anyone know anything else about him?

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Most interesting with those names and titles. On my Le Mans-page I have tried to fill in the drivers titles as well. I am glad that "Fon" Portago did not have as many starts as Henri Pescarolo...

I know nothing about Nico Nicole except that he was, as you say, a backmarker in Japanese F2 and F2000 from 1973 to at least 1978.

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't Sir Gawain Baillie some kind of Lord too? Raced a Galaxie at Longford, remember him passing me down Tannery Straight...

[Francis]

On the subject of Nico Nicole:

From 'The A-Z of Formula Racing Cars',
JAX - This was a BMW-engined F2 car which appeared on the fringe of the 1976 Japanese national scene, driven by German Nico Nicole.

The http://www.angelfire.com/me/krejcimar site also has him listed as a German. He competed in sports car races at Fuji between 1976-1978, driving a March 74S-BMW entered by 'Jax Racing Team' and 'Nicole Racing Japan'.

[David McKinney]

Sir Gawaine Baillie was a baronet, i.e. a sort of hereditary knight. As were Sir Henry Birkin and Sir John Whitmore.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Is John Colum Crichton-Stuart and Charles Crichton-Stuart the same person?
Isn't Johnny Dumfries also Earl of Dumfries?
What is 'finest' or 'highest' to be in Britain; Earl, Baron, Baronet, Sir, Lord, Duke, Count etc?

Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net

[fines]

John Colum Crichton-Stuart IS Johnny Dumfries, I don't think Charlie Crichton-Stuart was a relative, was he?

Originally posted by Paul Hartshorne
A.C.B. Chapman, hence the famous Lotus monogram badge

Yeah, ACBC! I had never any trouble remembering this - btw, I am going to an AC/DC-party tonite, should be a little fun! [p][Edited by fines on 01-27-2001]

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Is John Colum Crichton-Stuart and Charles Crichton-Stuart the same person?
Isn't Johnny Dumfries also Earl of Dumfries?
What is 'finest' or 'highest' to be in Britain; Earl, Baron, Baronet, Sir, Lord, Duke, Count etc?

Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net

they're all equal as far as I'm concenred. Keep the red flag flying here.

[David McKinney]

Sorry, Ray - Stefan did ask
Ranks of UK peerages, from top to bottom:
Duke
Marquess (or Marquis)
Earl
Viscount
Baron
Barons are invariably addressed as Lord Whatever, but so - just to make it difficult - so are some of the higher ranks.
And Charles Crichton-Stuart and Johnny Dumfries are cousins

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Nice one, Roger. Knighthood was abolished in Sweden 30 years ago, but we are still a monarchy

More F2 drivers, which nationality?
Gerhard Donnerer
Ariel Bakst
Roy Baker
Remi Gilli
Max Hug
Heinz Lange
Celeste Lips
Alihodzic Sead
Jürgen Zimmermann
Dieter Anton
Armin Gasser
Robert Werl

ATB
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net

[David M. Kane]

Stefan, I am a F2 freak. Could you post the URL for your F2
site. I would very much like to visit it and see what you
have to offer. I am very eager to learn all I can about F2.

Thanks.

[Ray Bell]

Roy Baker was the great train robber, wasn't he?

Surely English...

[David McKinney]

He may have been, but Roy James certainly was....

[Ray Bell]

So I got another one wrong... sorry lads.

[Rob29]

Roy Baker was British.Where are these mames coming from?
I never heard of the rest. "Celate Lips" I sure I would have remewmbered that one!

[sat]

Sead Alihodzic was Yugoslave.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Celeste Lips was entered for a F2 race at Hockenheim 1976, but did not turn up. Very interesting name. My favourite is Alihodzic.

David, the address for my F2-site is: http://user.tninet.s...1w/F2_Index.htm
It is very much under construction. It's very basic, no pics or anything flashy. There will never be any sorts of race reports, my knowledge of the english language is not enough for things like that.

All The Best
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net