28 replies to this topic

[Pullman99]

On a private visit last weekend to the (closed) motor museum at Filching, I was somewhat amazed to find this 1985 Arrows A8, ex-Boutsen or Berger. The museum, as several TNFrs will know, was founded by the late Paul Foulkes-Halbard who was a noted collector of memorabilia relating to the Campbell family. Included in the museum is the hull of Si Malcolm's Blue Bird K3, the Rolls-Royce "R" Type R37, and one of the Metropolitan-Vickers "Beryl" engines from Donald's Bluebird K7 amongst many smaller items of great interest. I'm not quite sure whether or not the Foulkes-Halbard family were intending to collect other F1 machinery but the Arrows A8 is displayed on its own. It looks a bit less well cared for than one would have expected although photographs of it taken during other private visits for a variety of groups have appeared on the internet in the last couple of years.





No number on this and I was not able to view the chassis plate so not sure of its provenance. Any ideas?

Edited by Pullman99, 20 June 2011 - 10:28.

[funformula]

This one is an Arrows A7 from 1984 no idea about the chassis no.

[Pullman99]

This one is an Arrows A7 from 1984 no idea about the chassis no.

Thanks for that. I was just going by how the museum has described it. No, I'm not sure either.

Noticed your other thread on the A8. You wait ages for an Arrows A8 thread, then two come along at once!

Twinny - a merge, perhaps???

[f1steveuk]

Ian, a loan item. I probably shouldn't name the lender on here, but he has/had a massive collection of Arrows and Arrows engines as he was a major supplier and I believe part of the deal was, at the end of each season he got most, if not all of the redundant "stock".

[Thundersports]

;)

[Pullman99]

Ian, a loan item. I probably shouldn't name the lender on here, but he has/had a massive collection of Arrows and Arrows engines as he was a major supplier and I believe part of the deal was, at the end of each season he got most, if not all of the redundant "stock".

Thanks Steve,

I've posted that query on another place too! Just wondered if its chassis number is known and whether or not it is an A8?

[f1steveuk]

Thanks Steve,

I've posted that query on another place too! Just wondered if its chassis number is known and whether or not it is an A8?

Possible hybrid, built during a transition stage, or from parts, it certainly has qualities of both A7 and 8!

[funformula]

Looking at the pictures, I don´t think it´s an hybride, I can´t see any A8 parts on it.
Seems to be a correct A7. Maybe a typing error in the museums description.

[f1steveuk]

Yes, I'm thinking out of sync aren't I, A7, alloy roll hoop, A8 Carbon roll hoop, I'll get me coat!

[simonlewisbooks]

Yes, I'm thinking out of sync aren't I, A7, alloy roll hoop, A8 Carbon roll hoop

...and doesn't the roll hoop look flimsy...

[funformula]

Yes, I'm thinking out of sync aren't I, A7, alloy roll hoop, A8 Carbon roll hoop, I'll get me coat!

For the drivers sake I hope they didn´t use alloy for the roll hoop back then

[D-Type]

...and doesn't the roll hoop look flimsy...

For the drivers sake I hope they didn´t use alloy for the roll hoop back then ;)

I don't know what difference it makes, but if you look carefully it's a double hoop, ie two hoops joined at the top giving four legs. effectively its triangulated so it can't fold flat so readily. Having said that, it still looks flimsy!

[f1steveuk]

For the drivers sake I hope they didn´t use alloy for the roll hoop back then ;)

Well an alloy is only a mixture of metals, so they don't have to be soft metals ;)

[funformula]

Well an alloy is only a mixture of metals, so they don't have to be soft metals ;)

....ahhhhh, one more gap filled in my poor english
I always thought that alloy is related to aluminium which I don´t think is the best choice for a roll bar

[f1steveuk]

....ahhhhh, one more gap filled in my poor english
I always thought that alloy is related to aluminium which I don´t think is the best choice for a roll bar ;)

I bet someone has tried it!!

[simonlewisbooks]

I bet someone has tried it!!

Roll cages in touring cars could be Aluminium until the late 80s. Andy Rouse's GpA Rover Vitesse ran one in the BTCC and had to replace it the following year when the regulations changed.

Has anyone used a carbon roll cage in a touring car (as opposed to roll hoop/bar in a single seater) ? I guess they are formed as an integral part of the structure in current sports prototypes?

[Peter Morley]

I bet someone has tried it!!

March 761-7 certainly had an aluminium roll over bar, I expect others did as well since there is no way Frank paid for anything other than the cheapest in those days.

[Hamish Robson]

Many Group B rally cars, notably the Audi quattro, used aluminium rollcages. Mmm - safe...

[D-Type]

Although aluminium alloys are not as strong as steel, when making a tube you make the wall thickness greater to compensate. The nett result is a lighter tube for the same load capacity. As a bonus, when you make the tubes into an assembly or structure, the thicker walls mean the tubes are less likely to buckle giving a better overall failure load.

Specialist knowledge required. Where's Bonde or McGuire?

[ghinzani]

Did you have a go on their corporate karts? Would love to be able to take my kart round there but they dont have insurance to cover it anymore sadly I am told. Looks a lovely place from the pics, will get over there some time especially now theres this to look at.

[Robin Fairservice]

Although aluminium alloys are not as strong as steel, when making a tube you make the wall thickness greater to compensate. The nett result is a lighter tube for the same load capacity. As a bonus, when you make the tubes into an assembly or structure, the thicker walls mean the tubes are less likely to buckle giving a better overall failure load.

Specialist knowledge required. Where's Bonde or McGuire?

An Aluminum structure can be as strong as a Steel one, but the problem is then how to deal with the deflections of the Aluminum. An Alumnium beam can be as strong as a steel beam, but it will deflect more. If you can accommodate the greater deflections then you will save weight.

[arttidesco]

Getting back to the original subject of the thread for a second, I believe the Wuerth sticker on the nose of the A7 in the photo was unique to the cars Marc Surer used in 1984, see linked photo's here is Boutsen both pics taken at Brands, sorry this does not help identify the chassis number.

[funformula]

Getting back to the original subject of the thread for a second, I believe the Wuerth sticker on the nose of the A7 in the photo was unique to the cars Marc Surer used in 1984, see linked photo's here is Boutsen both pics taken at Brands, sorry this does not help identify the chassis number.

Marc Surer´s car had the Wuerth stickers also on the front wing and on the rear wing sideplates. But stickers can be removed easily so as you suggest no real help in identifying the chassis number. Four A7 were built in total, one (Chassis No.2?) is owned by interrace and probably on display at the "Sinsheim Technik Museum" in Germany.

[elansprint72]

Well an alloy is only a mixture of metals, so they don't have to be soft metals ;)

An alloy is actually a mixture of two, or more, substances. We tend to think of "alloy" as something approximating to alluminium; however this is not so, steel is an alloy of iron and carbon; for example.

Damn; I wondered why I paid attention in that Metallurgy class back in '70; now I can trot out these pearlitic gems whilst drawing the iron/carbon equilibrium diagram in my sleep.... "Nurse, the screens....... quickly..."

[arttidesco]

An alloy is actually a mixture of two, or more, substances. We tend to think of "alloy" as something approximating to alluminium; however this is not so, steel is an alloy of iron and carbon; for example.

Damn; I wondered why I paid attention in that Metallurgy class back in '70; now I can trot out these pearlitic gems whilst drawing the iron/carbon equilibrium diagram in my sleep.... "Nurse, the screens....... quickly..."

I no longer have my circa 1972 chemistry note book to prove it, but is a metallic alloy not made of two or more elements at least one of which is metal ?

Perhaps I should be dragged off back to pedants corner

[Arjan de Roos]

Two other A7's are in Germany. One on exhibit at the Amerang (private) museum and another (#17) was at the Sinsheim Auto & Technik museum for some years. The Amerang car has the bodywork covering most of the roll over bar. Wasn't a forth show at the NEC Autosport show some years ago?

[D-Type]

I no longer have my circa 1972 chemistry note book to prove it, but is a metallic alloy not made of two or more elements at least one of which is metal ?

Perhaps I should be dragged off back to pedants corner

Which begs the question "What is a metal?"

[f1steveuk]

A refined ore?

[h4887]

An alloy is actually a mixture of two, or more, substances. We tend to think of "alloy" as something approximating to alluminium; however this is not so, steel is an alloy of iron and carbon; for example.

I've never heard cast iron referred to as an alloy, but it's got plenty of carbon in it...