74 replies to this topic

[joeninety]

Taking into account ALL the circumstances

[bella]

Hailwood, he won nearly all his TT's on a variety of machines against the worlds best, then came back and did it again and again 11 years later, on totally different bikes from his heyday, in his very first practice lap of his 78 comeback he nearly equalled the circuit record then in 79 left a mark that took the others a few more years to beat .
You can't knock the achievements of Dunlop, Mc Guinness and co but their TT's were won against mainly national standard competition .

[omobono]

Hailwood, he won nearly all his TT's on a variety of machines against the worlds best, then came back and did it again and again 11 years later, on totally different bikes from his heyday, in his very first practice lap of his 78 comeback he nearly equalled the circuit record then in 79 left a mark that took the others a few more years to beat .
You can't knock the achievements of Dunlop, Mc Guinness and co but their TT's were won against mainly national standard competition .

Couldn't agree more

[fil2.8]

Couldn't agree more

followed by , in no particular order , Stanley Woods , Geoff Duke , Jimmy Simpson , Harold Daniel , John Surtees , Bob Mac , Joey Dunlop , Tony Rutter , Jim Redman , , where do you stop ?? , they have all contributed to the TT ,

[Classicpics]

1 Stanley Woods - Rough tough course in those days and lots of "works" opposition around too.

2 SMBH - He was fast anywhere but always had good machinery on the Island and boy he could make it look effortless

3 Bob Mac - First 100mph lap on "thin" tyres, 99+ on a 250, his ride in the wet on his norton after replacing the clutch. He was fearlessly fast on the Island with any good bike.

[larryd]

Walter Handley

[Angus Lamont]

Its got to be Mike Hailwood, a rider in a class of his own. My second choice is Bob McIntyre, his never-say-die attitude says it all.

[Hasselhoff]

Well he didn't have anywhere near the number of starts as the others but Croz has to be right up there, the worst he ever finished was 4th and of the 5 times he finished he won 3 of them.

[cheapracer]

Ago.

Non native but matched or beat Hailwood while winning 10 times and quite likely more had he not called the place for what it is.

But I digress and apologise, this is an English forum after all.

[Classicpics]

Ago.

Non native but matched or beat Hailwood while winning 10 times and quite likely more had he not called the place for what it is.

But I digress and apologise, this is an English forum after all.

Don't apologise, It's a worldwide forum, have your say friend.

Yes Ago was a great rider, he knew the dangers, they all did, it will always be like this, it's part of the attraction. To do well at the TT is better than winning a GP. A true test of man and machine, for brave men and women only!

[exclubracer]

Joey.

A Maestro.

[vc1954]

Hailwood came past me in practice 79 on his 500 and put his arm behind his back and motioned me to tuck in behind....funny bastard. The topic line is impossible to answer.

[joepotts7]

I would have to say McIntyre. To quote Mike Hailwood: "if you take him off the Island, he is just as quick as the rest of us".

Ben

[cheapracer]

Don't apologise, It's a worldwide forum, have your say friend.

To do well at the TT is better than winning a GP. A true test of man and machine, for brave men and women only!

Tongue - cheek - in (but thanks for your kind words )

I strongly disagree, there was many a 'just as dangerous' GP track in their own way back in those days with nothing more than a single haybale in front of a lamp post, cobblestones etc, - hell some curcuits even had tram/rail tracks that needed to be negotiated and I mean at a shallow angle, not crossing at 90 degrees.

The Nurb, Spa and Brno tracks just for example.

[Arthur]

Hailwood came past me in practice 79 on his 500 and put his arm behind his back and motioned me to tuck in behind....funny bastard. The topic line is impossible to answer.

Reminds me Mike did exactly the same to me in 1965 practise as we approached the 4 bend, made into 1 if you on right line, Veranda.
Hard to make a choice on this one as circumstances change but I would have to go with Mike Hailwood

[Classicpics]

Tongue - cheek - in ;) (but thanks for your kind words )

I strongly disagree, there was many a 'just as dangerous' GP track in their own way back in those days with nothing more than a single haybale in front of a lamp post, cobblestones etc, - hell some curcuits even had tram/rail tracks that needed to be negotiated and I mean at a shallow angle, not crossing at 90 degrees.

The Nurb, Spa and Brno tracks just for example.

Yes indeed, the old tracks were very dangerous and now for Moto GP they are very safe, fatalities are unusual now but it would be 5 or 6 top men a year in the bad old days.

I was referring to now for the TT versus GP win, (GP safe, TT no gravel traps)

[joeninety]

Interesting replies, thought they would be. Unless someone computes the data for analytical purposes then it really is down to preferences. See Read is missing for some reason ! Thought provoking that winning five TT's in one week doesn't put you up there in the minds of the purist. My greatest rider, difficult, almost impossible to answer as mentioned, but Ago is right up there after his epic dual with Hailwood.

Edited by joeninety, 22 June 2011 - 19:07.

[Rennmax]

Interesting replies, thought they would be. Unless someone computes the data for analytical purposes then it really is down to preferences. See Read is missing for some reason ! Thought provoking that winning five TT's in one week doesn't put you up there in the minds of the purist. My greatest rider, difficult, almost impossible to answer as mentioned, but Ago is right up there after his epic dual with Hailwood.

I think there is probably the best rider of a specific era, but no 'best ever' . Would today's top rider have the stamina to tackle the tortures of the TT in the twenties and thirties, would the heroes of these decades have the abilities to control a 190 mph bike ? Frankly I don't know. Nevertheless, if you would put all riders on equal Manxes, I would place my bet on SMBH.

Edit: But I admit that I have a soft spot for Freddie Frith's first 90 mph lap in '37....
Edit Edit: ..and for Schauzu/Kalauch doing a 99.31 mph in '75. The sidecar boys are also worth to be mentioned

Edited by Rennmax, 23 June 2011 - 20:05.

[terryshep]

I think there is probably the best rider of a specific era, but no 'best ever' . Would today's top rider have the stamina to tackle the tortures of the TT in the twenties and thirties, would the heroes of these decades have the abilities to control a 190 mph bike ? Frankly I don't know. Nevertheless, if you would place all riders on equal Manxes, I would place my bet on SMBH.

Edit: But I admit that I have a soft spot for Freddie Frith's first 90 mph lap in '37....
Edit Edit: ..and for Schauzu/Kalauch doing a 99.31 mph in '75. The sidecar boys are also worth to be mentioned

You are absolutely right, Renn, riders do what they have to do to fit their era. Freddie Frith's 90.75 lap in '37 was the peak at that time, with that technology and track condition. Harold Daniell topped it fractionally in 1938, (only by 5 seconds) with a proper double-knocker motor and tele forks. One might wonder why the supercharged BMWs didn't do better then, or in 1939, but no doubt there was a reason.

I truly believe that riders of the pre-war generations, given the same level of preparation (by which I mean access to the same sort of riding conditions, bike power, tyres, etc., in their formative riding years) would have performed just as well as riders of the modern era. I would suggest that Stanley Woods, with a winning career starting in 1923 and stretching to the start of the war, with 10 wins, would stand comparison with the best we've seen since 1945. Also, we never saw the best of some riders, maybe Walter Rusk might have been the greatest of his day had the air war not taken him from us. I feel for the pre-war riders, robbed of 7 or 8 years of their careers. Frith, Bills, Mellors, Daniell, there's a long list. Let's not forget the continental riders either.

It's unfortunate that memories only stretch back over recent time and that popularity polls always produce only stars of recent years, the past is just non-existent to a lot of people. Fortunately, that's not the case on this forum.

[joeninety]

"..and for Schauzu/Kalauch doing a 99.31 mph in '75. The sidecar boys are also worth to be mentioned"

I was wondering when the outfits would be mentioned, I saw a German pairing back when I was a kid, can't remember who it was but I was impressed by the way he lifted the chair to negotiate what I think was Bedstead ? Wow.

I'm sure you lads must have seen the recent TV programme on Murry Walker's TT greats, any comments ?

Edited by joeninety, 23 June 2011 - 19:06.

[Ray Oldam]

I suppose you remember the ones who were around when you were younger. For me it would have to be Hailwood - the two epic 500 races of 1965 and 1967 were amazing feats of determination as well as riding skill which I was very lucky to see as a lad. Many others would have simply stopped and pulled out in either of those situations and no-one would have criticised them.

Equally, the riders of today, and of the early years faced different challenges. If you were to equal out course conditions to the same year, then put them all on identical Manx Nortons at the peak of their careers, probably all the names here would be getting around within a few seconds of each other. What a race that would be!

All the best.

Ray

[Rennmax]

You are absolutely right, Renn, riders do what they have to do to fit their era. Freddie Frith's 90.75 lap in '37 was the peak at that time, with that technology and track condition. Harold Daniell topped it fractionally in 1938, (only by 5 seconds) with a proper double-knocker motor and tele forks. One might wonder why the supercharged BMWs didn't do better then, or in 1939, but no doubt there was a reason.

Hi Terry, as far as I know, Norton made only a half-hearted effort in '39 since they were already putting their focus on producing the 16 H model for the looming hostilities... and Meier didn't rider faster than necessary albeit clocking a 90.75 mph lap

[Rennmax]

"..and for Schauzu/Kalauch doing a 99.31 mph in '75. The sidecar boys are also worth to be mentioned"

I was wondering when the outfits would be mentioned, I saw a German pairing back when I was a kid, can't remember who it was but I was impressed by the way he lifted the chair to negotiate what I think was Bedstead ? Wow.

I'm sure you lads must have seen the recent TV programme on Murry Walker's TT greats, any comments ?

Hi Chris, pity enough the programme you mention is not available over here, but possibly it's just this film ?

http://www.babelgum....st-moments.html

Edited by Rennmax, 23 June 2011 - 20:31.

[joeninety]

Hi Chris, pity enough the programme you mention is not available over here, but possibly it's just that film ?

http://www.babelgum....st-moments.html

No, Murray Walker's TT Memories. I can post it on youtube but risk the wrath of copyright infringement bollocks !

Edited by joeninety, 23 June 2011 - 20:45.

[joeninety]

Thanks a lot for your kind offer, I'll send you a pm

No probs Renn, like the Prince of Speed I dont come cheap ! But in this instance I'll do it for free for an old age pensioner !

Edited by joeninety, 23 June 2011 - 21:05.

[milestone 11]

Thought provoking that winning five TT's in one week doesn't put you up there in the minds of the purist.

Well I'm just back home, having spent the 4th June sat at Milestone 11. I'm surprised too that Ian Hutchinson hasn't made it somewhere in someones list. What about his predecessor of most in a week, Phillip McCallen, he's probably the most spectacular I've seen, the eyes almost popping out the helmet.
Must confess to having shed more than a few tears at John McGuinness making it 16 and 17. I somehow doubt we'll see him on the mountain again, well not competitively anyway.
To answer the question though, have to go with Joey.

Edited by milestone 11, 24 June 2011 - 14:54.

[TZ350H]

Well I'm just back home, having spent the 4th June sat at Milestone 11. I'm surprised too that Ian Hutchinson hasn't made it somewhere in someones list. What about his predecessor of most in a week, Phillip McCallen, he's probably the most spectacular I've seen, the eyes almost popping out the helmet.
Must confess to having shed more than a few tears at John McGuinness making it 16 and 17. I somehow doubt we'll see him on the mountain again, well not competitively anyway.
To answer the question though, have to go with Joey.

You have misread the question. How can English and Irish racers who don't come near world class standard be your picks as the 'greatest ever'? They may be your favourites which is fair enough but please don't confuse greats with favourites.

[picblanc]

I thought the question was greatest TT rider, not greatest motorcycle racer?

[Classicpics]

You have misread the question. How can English and Irish racers who don't come near world class standard be your picks as the 'greatest ever'? They may be your favourites which is fair enough but please don't confuse greats with favourites.

So you dismiss Irishmen Stanley Woods and Joey Dunlop as world class riders?

Here's couple of pretty good English racers on short circuits and at the TT: Geoff Duke, John Surtees,

[Russell Burrows]

Well he didn't have anywhere near the number of starts as the others but Croz has to be right up there, the worst he ever finished was 4th and of the 5 times he finished he won 3 of them.

http://www.youtube.c...ture=grec_index

[TZ350H]

In my time Hailwood and Agostini have been the greatest TT riders by some way. Some of my other personal favourites included Bill Ivy, John G Williams and Tom Herron. All TT legends in their own way.

[picblanc]

Yep so many "greatest" thats why its difficult to say who was the very best, as machinery tyres road surface, top speed number of laps, etc comes into play. They are all "great" in my book.

[Hamish Robson]

What about his predecessor of most in a week, Phillip McCallen, he's probably the most spectacular I've seen, the eyes almost popping out the helmet.
...
...
...
To answer the question though, have to go with Joey.

McCallen's 4 wins was a hell of a week (so very drunk), met him in a bookshop in Douglas doing a signing as well, lovely chap.

Agree with the last bit though.

Edited by Hamish Robson, 28 June 2011 - 10:50.

[joeninety]

Give this a whirl.

http://www.youtube.c...u/2/EvUlmg6nxdE
Just Added another trilogy for those who missed it first time around
http://www.youtube.c...u/2/DOUrgDTKmhw

Edited by joeninety, 29 June 2011 - 20:19.

[Rennmax]

Give this a whirl.

http://www.youtube.c...u/2/EvUlmg6nxdE
Just Added another trilogy for those who missed it first time around
http://www.youtube.c...u/2/DOUrgDTKmhw

Thanks for the uploads Chris

[omobono]

If you want to go way back..... Freddie Dixon could be added to the list. Winner on two, three and I believe ( please correct me if I am wrong) four wheels

[tonyed]

If you want to go way back..... Freddie Dixon could be added to the list. Winner on two, three and I believe ( please correct me if I am wrong) four wheels

Also 90.27 mph in 1937 by Freddie Frith on a bike with barely any suspension on pre-war roads, 45 bhp - bloody hero.

With 200bhp getting off the 'gas' and back to speed is not a problem. As any 125 rider in the Island will tell you with a small bhp engine momentum is king and with 45-50 bhp it's crucial and Friths Norton probably weighed twice as a modern 125.

[exclubracer]

I've just remembered seeing an interview with John McGuinness re who was the best ever TT rider. He stated unequivocally 'Joey'

When asked to expand on why he thought this, he just said:- 'he was mega'

A compliment indeed from the Morecambe Brickie

[picblanc]

Joey was "mega" but McGuiness never saw Hailwood or Ago or Surtees Heron or Williams JG & Charlie, so personal opinions are just that personal opinions, it would be easier if who was the best was done in decades I think?

[picblanc]

But then again does it matter?

[Russell Burrows]

But then again does it matter?

Interesting to ponder. Perhaps someone should devise a Duckworth Lewis type system The list of blokes who were stars elsewhere but for whatever reason just didn't cut it on the Island is a fairly long one: Gould, Sheene, Ditchburn for starters.

[Eric Dunsdon]

I just popped over from the four wheeler Nostalgia Forum and though my knowledge of motor cycle racing is minimal I have really enjoyed reading the informed opinions of you chaps. Most interesting. For what its worth, and simply from what I've read and heard, I would go for Mike Hailwood and Geoff Duke who were both pretty useful in cars as well. I notice that nobody has mentioned George Formby!.

[Rennmax]

Interesting to ponder. Perhaps someone should devise a Duckworth Lewis type system ;) The list of blokes who were stars elsewhere but for whatever reason just didn't cut it on the Island is a fairly long one: Gould, Sheene, Ditchburn for starters.

John Cooper too

Charlie Williams was more successful on the Island than on short circuits, wasn't he ?

One unmentioned up to now

http://yorkshireferr...earch?q=guthrie

Thanks Ben, although the last passage shows only one of the 2 explications for the crash in my opinion. The other one is a broken conrod which eventually stalled the engine, according to trustable sources Joe Craig discoverd that after he inspected the bike after the crash. No disrespect for Stanley Woods' report intended of course, a lot of politcal implications were in that matter anyway

[joepotts7]

John Cooper too

Charlie Williams was more successful on the Island than on short circuits, wasn't he ?

One unmentioned up to now

http://yorkshireferr...earch?q=guthrie

Thanks Ben, although the last passage shows only one of the 2 explications for the crash in my opinion. The other one is a broken conrod which eventually stalled the engine, according to trustable sources Joe Craig discoverd that after he inspected the bike after the crash. No disrespect for Stanley Woods' report intended of course, a lot of politcal implications were in that matter anyway

I agree. Stanley Woods' version of events makes for an exciting political plot, but I think it is far fetched. I had not heard of the con-rod breakage. It is sometimes known for a con-rod to break after a crash (engine can suddenly over-rev), so it might be one of those 'what came first' situations?

Ben

[Rennmax]

I agree. Stanley Woods' version of events makes for an exciting political plot, but I think it is far fetched. I had not heard of the con-rod breakage. It is sometimes known for a con-rod to break after a crash (engine can suddenly over-rev), so it might be one of those 'what came first' situations?

Ben

Hi Ben, I once saw a picture of Guthrie's bike which showed the rear wheel had gone astray. This would suit the 'Joe Craig' explanation that the broken conrod caused a massive jolt which eventually broke the rear axle.You could argue now in this case either the primary or secondary chain would break first....

Probably of interest

http://www.eggersdor...hsenring37.html

with a suitable translator

Sorry for coming off topic

Edited by Rennmax, 06 July 2011 - 10:22.

[Russell Burrows]

John Cooper too

Charlie Williams was more successful on the Island than on short circuits, wasn't he ?

Yes Renn, it cuts both ways but somehow a bigger deficit for the the Island slow coaches ? Dan Shorey was another example. I can remember watching Barry Ditchburn tippy toeing through Ramsey on the Kawasaki - such a contrast to Grant in the same race.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 06 July 2011 - 10:28.

[GD66]

I did hear some years back that Phil Read once flew a theory that Guthrie was taken out by a German sniper in the trees. At the time, this held some gravitas but was later discounted.
Never would have considered Stanley Woods a bullshitter though, his life was too amazing to need any embellishment.

[Russell Burrows]

I did hear some years back that Phil Read once flew a theory that Guthrie was taken out by a German sniper in the trees. At the time, this held some gravitas but was later discounted.
.

You've induced a full fifteen minutes of stunned silence, Glenn.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 06 July 2011 - 10:50.

[Rennmax]

Yes Renn, it cuts both ways but somehow a bigger deficit for the the Island slow coaches ? Dan Shorey was another example. I can remember watching Barry Ditchburn tippy toeing through Ramsey on the Kawasaki - such a contrast to Grant in the same race.

Hi Russ, must have been the Senior in '75

[Russell Burrows]

Hi Russ, must have been the Senior in '75

Yes Renn . I see the data base has him behind a couple of G50's !