61 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

We today know much about GP cars that never raced.

But what about IndyCar teams?

We had the Ferraro project in the end of the 80s.
And in Heinz Prüller's "Die Story der deutschen Formel-1" is written about Eoy Winkelmann wanted to creat an IndyCar team in 1996. More details about the projects (with help of Arrows F1 team).

There were some talks about Nelson Philippe and his brothers want to etablish an own Indy Car team from Mary Roth's team. It was in 2009 I think.

[buckaluck]

I know from talking with Don Nichols (owner of Shadow Racing Team) that he had plans to build an Indy car he also had plans for a sports racing car for the LeMans series.

Buck

[Obster]

I remember James Garner sitting at a press conference for a CART team that was to bear his name...nothing ever came of it. Anybody have the inside story?

[RA Historian]

I know from talking with Don Nichols (owner of Shadow Racing Team) that he had plans to build an Indy car he also had plans for a sports racing car for the LeMans series.

I recall reading about this more than once over the years; probably as much as three separate occasions. Was it for real, or just Don Nichols doing a little self promotion?

I remember James Garner sitting at a press conference for a CART team that was to bear his name...nothing ever came of it. Anybody have the inside story?

Cahill-Garner Racing. Announced in the late 1980s, IIRC. Even put out some fancy press kits, of which I may still have one somewhere. A fellow named Larry (?) Cahill, out of Iowa (?) was the person behind it. I suspect that Jim Garner's involvement was more of celebrity and sponsor attractor than actual participant, but as you say, nothing ever really came of it.

Tom

[Tom Smith]

I know from talking with Don Nichols (owner of Shadow Racing Team) that he had plans to build an Indy car he also had plans for a sports racing car for the LeMans series.

Buck

DN1 (Nichols) wanted Ronnie Peterson to drive the Shadow Indy car. Ronnie went to Indy to have a look and concluded that "well it doesn't look all that terribly difficult". He probably didn't have a clue about the sea level hillbilly USAC officials.

[mac miller]

Certainly, the most successful and interesting Indy car team that never raced was the Firestone tire test team headed by Ray Nichels.
This team ran thousands of miles at the INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY and other Indy car tracks and employed most of the top drivers of the day....... but never competed in a race!

Read about the Firestone test cars here >>>Visit My Website

Edited by mac miller, 22 June 2011 - 00:39.

[rl1856]

What about Mercedes ? I seem to remember reading that MB seriously contemplated running a modified W196 in 1956. They calculated how fast the cars needed to be to win. They ultimately decided against competing, but the winner that year came in at almost precisely the speed predicted by MB analysis.

Best,

Ross

[B Squared]

Cahill-Garner Racing. Announced in the late 1980s, IIRC. Even put out some fancy press kits, of which I may still have one somewhere. A fellow named Larry (?) Cahill, out of Iowa (?) was the person behind it. I suspect that Jim Garner's involvement was more of celebrity and sponsor attractor than actual participant, but as you say, nothing ever really came of it.

I remember Kevin Cogan was the rumored driver. I think Larry & Iowa are correct too. I'll dig into some of the old On Track's and see if I can find out for sure.

[buckaluck]

[quote name='RA Historian' date='Jun 21 2011, 15:09' post='5121241']
I recall reading about this more than once over the years; probably as much as three separate occasions. Was it for real, or just Don Nichols doing a little self promotion?

RA
I think he had the start of a chassis for an indy car after he pulled out F1 but could not find sponsorship so didn't complete it.
As far as the Le Mans car I did his business cards for the start of that one with a France address and phone info so I'd say it was more then self promotion
but again lack of sponsorship or investor interest ended the enterprise.

He wasn't going to use his money so without backers, investors or sponsorship it went only so far.

Buck

[Tom Smith]

The Shelby turbine cars never raced at Indy. That was after Goodyear spent 600 grand for them.
The Chryslers were torpedoed by the officials too.
Porsche got a taste of them when USAC lowered the boost rules for turbocharged 6 cylinder engines unless of course if it was a Buick V-6.
There were a lot of valid reasons for CART. Then they managed to figure out how to do an even worse job than USAC with a different Chairman one after another. Remember how long Rahal lasted?

Edited by Tom Smith, 22 June 2011 - 06:00.

[Gert]

Cahill-Garner Racing. Announced in the late 1980s, IIRC. Even put out some fancy press kits, of which I may still have one somewhere. A fellow named Larry (?) Cahill, out of Iowa (?) was the person behind it. I suspect that Jim Garner's involvement was more of celebrity and sponsor attractor than actual participant, but as you say, nothing ever really came of it.

Tom

IIRC, The Cahill fellow finally had a team in the early IRL years (1999-ish?)

[RA Historian]

IIRC, The Cahill fellow finally had a team in the early IRL years (1999-ish?)

I believe that you are right.
Tom

[Michael Ferner]

If I'm not mistaken, "the Cahill fellow" were brothers (Larry & Kenny?), who had a decades long history as car owners from Sprint Cars to Formula Atlantic.

[Michael Ferner]

The Chryslers were torpedoed by the officials too.

That's a long-running myth. The company's plans to enter Indy Car racing were not stymied by officialdom, in fact Chrysler tried to influence AAA to change the rules to make them more competitive. A ploy that simply didn't work.

[racinggeek]

And in Heinz Prüller's "Die Story der deutschen Formel-1" is written about Eoy Winkelmann wanted to creat an IndyCar team in 1996. More details about the projects (with help of Arrows F1 team).

Hello, all. Longtime lurker in this forum, first-time poster. Not an insider by any means, just a fan with a love of racing history and a memory for the trivial.

I don't recall anything about a Winkelmann team in '96, but there was the aborted Winkelmann effort that was to bring Lotus back to Indy in 1985. Al Unser Jr. left Galles Racing to sign with Winkelmann and drive the Lotus 96, but (if I remember correctly) a large sponsorship deal fell through, and neither the car nor the team ever raced.

Little Al landed on his feet, though, as that happened about the time John Paul Jr. had his legal issues and was dropped from the Domino's Pizza/Doug Shierson team. Al Jr. was picked up by Shierson and, instead of working to develop the Lotus, had that famous battle with his father for the CART championship that season, which Big Al won by one point.

RA Historian and others, there was definitely a Cahill Racing team that ran the IRL for a couple of years around the turn of the century; USAC Midget star Donnie Beechler is the only driver I can think of at the moment for that team. Not sure if that's the same as the Larry Cahill that wanted to get into CART with James Garner a decade or so earlier. IIRC, Larry Cahill had a string of hotels in the Midwest and was a noted sprint car owner, I believe out of Iowa.

[HistoryFan]

Okay thank you.

More almost IndyCar teams`?

[fbarrett]

What about Fangio and the "Cast-Iron Foundry Special" (great name for a race car, huh?) at Indy?

Frank

[mac miller]

What about Fangio and the "Cast-Iron Foundry Special" (great name for a race car, huh?) at Indy?
Frank

Well, Frank, Not sure where you came up with the above info but ....

I assume you are referring to the Dayton Steel Foundry Spl. This company owned and raced cars at the Indianapolis Speedway for many years(mid 50s into the mid 70s) under various names including Dayton Steel Foundry Spl, Dayton Disc Brake Spl, Dayton Steel Wheel Spl. and Dayton Walther Spl. The Dayton Ohio company was owned by George Walther and manufactured truck wheels, hubs and brakes.

You are correct that Fangio never raced at Indy after taking laps in the Dayton Steel Foundry Spl. and, also, the late 50s Kurtis NOVI.

Edited by mac miller, 29 June 2011 - 01:52.

[fbarrett]

Mac:

Thanks for straightening me out. I'd seen a photo of Fangio in said car with the Dayton Steel Foundry name on the side and just got it wrong. Was George any relation to Salt?

Frank

[William Hunt]

Ferrari actually build an IndyCar, I believe in 1986, that never raced and Alfa Romeo had plans to enter IndyCar with a team in the same period but ended up just as an engine supplier. That Ferrari model was called type 637 and was designed by Gustav Brunner. Michele Alboreto even tested that car at Fiorano!

[HaydenFan]

RA Historian and others, there was definitely a Cahill Racing team that ran the IRL for a couple of years around the turn of the century; USAC Midget star Donnie Beechler is the only driver I can think of at the moment for that team. Not sure if that's the same as the Larry Cahill that wanted to get into CART with James Garner a decade or so earlier. IIRC, Larry Cahill had a string of hotels in the Midwest and was a noted sprint car owner, I believe out of Iowa.

Cahill was involved with Milka Duno's move to IndyCar. He was to restart his team with Duno as a driver along with a sprint car (not NASCAR) driver as the number two. Nothing happened and Duno went to SAMAX.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Cahill_Racing

[rdmotorsport]

Cahill was involved with Milka Duno's move to IndyCar. He was to restart his team with Duno as a driver along with a sprint car (not NASCAR) driver as the number two. Nothing happened and Duno went to SAMAX.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Cahill_Racing

I beleive Lancastrian "The March man", Jon brannighan entered but did not run a elderly March in the nineties, can anyone confirm this?

Edited by rdmotorsport, 29 June 2011 - 09:44.

[B Squared]

Mac:

Thanks for straightening me out. I'd seen a photo of Fangio in said car with the Dayton Steel Foundry name on the side and just got it wrong. Was George any relation to Salt?

Frank

George was Salt's father.

[hlfuzzball]

Remember Bill Lear's big splash about a STEAM-Powered IndyCar ? Tea-kettle hype......

[RStock]

I'm pretty sure Cahill still has some involvement, although in the Indy Lights series.

One notable also ran would be the Bardhahl Ferrari Special, a Kurtis Kraft fitted with a Ferrari engine. From my understanding Ferrari lost interest, turning the project over to OSCA who finished the car but it did not have the speed to make the race. 1956 I think it was, driven by Nino Farina. I seem to remember Chinetti had a failed effort with a true Ferrari that year as well.

[RA Historian]

Remember Bill Lear's big splash about a STEAM-Powered IndyCar ? Tea-kettle hype......

Didn't he also announce that he was going to build a duplicate of the Indianapolis Speedway somewhere in the Nevada desert? I have a vague recollection of that around the same time as he was hyping the steam car.
Tom

[arttidesco]

Fangio's Dayton Steel Foundry Special, which I believe did make the race in '57 and '59 recording DNF on both occasions.



Lotus 96, sans front wings, which never made it anywhere

[Collombin]

Fangio's Dayton Steel Foundry Special, which I believe did make the race in '57 and '59 recording DNF on both occasions.

I'm pretty sure this was the car that Mike Magill had his huge shunt with in '59, footage of which makes you wonder how he could possibly have survived (compulsory roll bars and the strength of Jud Larson notwithstanding).

[Macca]

Remember Bill Lear's big splash about a STEAM-Powered IndyCar ? Tea-kettle hype......

Have a look here....

Also pics of the Shelby Turbine immortalised by Hotwheels.

Paul M

[hlfuzzball]

Nice pics of the Lear Vapordyne, Paul. I'll bet the Indy Tech Committee had a big case of the vapors over that possible entry !

[racer69]

I'm not sure how far these two got, but;

- Weren't TWR planning on entering a CART team circa 1993/94? Martin Brundle was linked to it?

- Nissan were supposed to enter CART in 1994, with Geoff Brabham one of the drivers (was why they kept him under contract after withdrawing from IMSA at the end of 1992)... they may have even gotten as far as track testing the engine? Either way the whole thing was halted late in 1993.

[HistoryFan]

This two sounds very interesting, thank you!

[racinggeek]

Ferrari actually build an IndyCar, I believe in 1986, that never raced and Alfa Romeo had plans to enter IndyCar with a team in the same period but ended up just as an engine supplier. That Ferrari model was called type 637 and was designed by Gustav Brunner. Michele Alboreto even tested that car at Fiorano!

The Ferrari was built before the '86 season for a reported partnership with Trusports and Bobby Rahal, who would have run the car in CART. A chassis was built, at least, although I don't know if an engine built to CART specs ever ran, or if the car ran at all. It never showed up in the States, and some reports indicate it was yet another Ferrari ploy to show F1 it could take its ball and go play elsewhere if things weren't going to its liking. Probbaly worked out well for Truesports and Rahal, anyway, as they took their trusty March-Cosworth to the Indy 500 win and CART championship that year.

[racinggeek]

I'm not sure how far these two got, but;

- Weren't TWR planning on entering a CART team circa 1993/94? Martin Brundle was linked to it?

- Nissan were supposed to enter CART in 1994, with Geoff Brabham one of the drivers (was why they kept him under contract after withdrawing from IMSA at the end of 1992)... they may have even gotten as far as track testing the engine? Either way the whole thing was halted late in 1993.

I remember hearing the TWR one being rumored/reported; I seem to remember it was because the team was looking for a change from WSC/IMSA and might have become one of the favored Ford-Cosworth teams right off the bat, maybe even with a Jaguar-badged engine. Might have been for '93 because it had the Bud Light sponsorship for its IMSA Jaguars through '92. Also believe TWR's IMSA driver, Davy Jones, was linked with this.

[HistoryFan]

Ferrari actually build an IndyCar, I believe in 1986, that never raced and Alfa Romeo had plans to enter IndyCar with a team in the same period but ended up just as an engine supplier. That Ferrari model was called type 637 and was designed by Gustav Brunner. Michele Alboreto even tested that car at Fiorano!

1. Who should run that Alfa Romeo team. They also had racing teams for their entrys in F1 as well (Euroracing)?

2. Also Bobby Rahal tested that Ferrari, I think.

[HistoryFan]

To sum up, we have:

Mercedes 1956 with a modified W196.
Shadow Team by Don Nichols in the late 70s
Ferrari project in 1986: Brunner designed, Alboreto, Rahal testet, collaboration with Truesports
Alfa Romeo at the same time, then only engine supplier.
Cahill Garner Racing end of the 80s
TWR Racing 1993: Brundle, Davey Jones as drivers, perhaps Jaguar engines
Nissan team in 1994, Geoff Brabham as driver
Perhaps a Roy Winkelmann Racing team
Nelson Philippe and his brothers 2009 with the rest of Mary Roth's team.

More almost IndyCar teams?

[Arjan de Roos]

The Ferrari was built before the '86 season for a reported partnership with Trusports and Bobby Rahal, who would have run the car in CART. A chassis was built, at least, although I don't know if an engine built to CART specs ever ran, or if the car ran at all. It never showed up in the States, and some reports indicate it was yet another Ferrari ploy to show F1 it could take its ball and go play elsewhere if things weren't going to its liking. Probbaly worked out well for Truesports and Rahal, anyway, as they took their trusty March-Cosworth to the Indy 500 win and CART championship that year.

Don't agree fully. Have a look here:
http://www.forix.com...ca-ferrari.html

[ensign14]

There was some chap, circa 1993, who claimed to have an electric engine to fit in the back of an Indycar chassis. Al Unser was linked with the project as a driver (although I wonder if Unser was aware of the link). The hope was that the recharging time would be similar to refuelling time. Can't remember the chap's name.

[Henri Greuter]

There was some chap, circa 1993, who claimed to have an electric engine to fit in the back of an Indycar chassis. Al Unser was linked with the project as a driver (although I wonder if Unser was aware of the link). The hope was that the recharging time would be similar to refuelling time. Can't remember the chap's name.

I recall something similar being said but then with Luyendyk as driver.
The running joke was that we wondered who eventually dared to take a ride in the "Electric chair"


Henri

[KWSN - DSM]

The Ferrari 637

http://www.ferrarida...9... 1 1987.htm

[Arjan de Roos]

The Ferrari 637

http://www.ferrarida...9... 1 1987.htm

Hmm, quite some data need to be filled in there. I wonder what the use is of such an empty page. Story isnt correct. Also using my pictures.

[Obster]

Lear supposedly carved out the Indy-sized test track in the desert but it was never blacktopped.
I wonder if Google earth would show anything?

[Henri Greuter]

Hmm, quite some data need to be filled in there. I wonder what the use is of such an empty page. Story isnt correct. Also using my pictures.

Hi Arjan,

Find some consolation it the fact that you are seen as the person who did the best in covering at least something of an obscure part of ferrari history, accessable on the internet.
Even if it goes unrewarded.....
But I got to say that I do like the pictures of the actual engine. Because you rarely see pictures of the car with the engine cover taken off....

I wonder when people will find "you know what...."


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 July 2011 - 07:23.

[TDC]

We today know much about GP cars that never raced.

But what about IndyCar teams?

Your humble servant scribbled five stories about such cars in AutoWeek, the Lotus Type 96 Indycar (June 3, 1991), the 1980 Interscope-Porsche Indycar (June 8, 1992), the Spartus Indycar (May 24, 1993), the 1959 Maserati Eldorado Special (June 7, 1993), and the 1987 Ferrari Indycar (August 16, 1993). It has always been a subject of fascination for me and I have researched many, many other interesting examples in the history of the 500.

Hmnn, maybe after my Le Mans epic, I'll put that all together as a book

TC

[ensign14]

No, I wrote about the Spartus.

[racinggeek]

Your humble servant scribbled five stories about such cars in AutoWeek, the Lotus Type 96 Indycar (June 3, 1991), the 1980 Interscope-Porsche Indycar (June 8, 1992), the Spartus Indycar (May 24, 1993), the 1959 Maserati Eldorado Special (June 7, 1993), and the 1987 Ferrari Indycar (August 16, 1993). It has always been a subject of fascination for me and I have researched many, many other interesting examples in the history of the 500.

Hmnn, maybe after my Le Mans epic, I'll put that all together as a book

TC

OK, now I'm really curious -- the Spartus?? This thread is a subject of fascination for me as well, but that's a new one on me.

Re: the Interscope-Porsche, it's basically the same chassis that would be fitted with a Cosworth and run in the 500 in 1981-82, right? Swoopy-looking for sure, but I think everyone's main memory of it is that gawd-awful crash Danny-O had with it in '81. Was the car ever actually run or even fitted with a working, Indy-legal Porsche engine?

[racinggeek]

No, I wrote about the Spartus.

Just bear in mind what happened to all those who made that claim ...

[snettertonesses]

Chapman's Lotus.. Loti.. never raced in 69.. as far as i know they never turned a wheel .... or a hub again.

I've had plans to race at Indianapolis ever since i got my drivers license in 1976.. Alas.. sponsor, team, supplier issues have thwarted my efforts thus far.. but NEXT year..............

Edited by snettertonesses, 29 July 2011 - 20:59.

[RA Historian]

Chapman's Lotus.. Loti.. never raced in 69.. as far as i know they never turned a wheel .... or a hub again.

The Lotus 64s did practice in 1969, but of course the broken hub to which you allude caused the cars to be withdrawn before the race.

BTW, correct plural is Lotuses. Ersatz Latin plural does not apply in case of a proper name.

Tom

[TDC]

OK, now I'm really curious -- the Spartus?? This thread is a subject of fascination for me as well, but that's a new one on me.

Re: the Interscope-Porsche, it's basically the same chassis that would be fitted with a Cosworth and run in the 500 in 1981-82, right? Swoopy-looking for sure, but I think everyone's main memory of it is that gawd-awful crash Danny-O had with it in '81. Was the car ever actually run or even fitted with a working, Indy-legal Porsche engine?

The Spartus was the brain child of Art Sparks circa '63, '64. It was, to say the least, an original design, to be powered by a water-cooled, blown 170 c.i. flat six engine, which was projected to weigh 385 pounds. Douglas Aircraft was to build the chassis, which had many space age innovations. It was a very clean mid-engine design, the most unique feature of which was what Douglas engineers called a "centripetal force generator." It was a pivoting vertical fin actuated by cornering forces, alegedly to generate force opposite centrifugal force. Unfortunately, the million dollar budget never was realized.

Yes, the Interscope Porsche Indycar was tested at Ontario. It had a water-cooled (the heads) flat six derived from the successful 935 and 936 sports prototypes.

Ah, just remembered, I also did a piece for AutoWeek in '90 on the Bardahl Indy Ferrari, a 4.4-liter six in a roadster chassis.

TC