26 replies to this topic

[SCHKEE T332]

Ten or so years ago I saw a pretty red Can Am Lola for sale at Road America and Road Atlanta with the number 44 on it.
I fantasized about sitting in it, starting it, driving it, but mostly, racing it.
It had a chassis plate (SL160/4) and looked to be in complete condition if not actually raceworthy.
I saw the car a few other times either in person or in a magazine being raced by some lucky individual with bigger cajones or wallet than I had.
A few years ago the car came for sale again and this time I bought it. Over the years I had collected several old Lolas and this one that got away, didn't.
I was very excited to finally have a big block !

http://http://www.lo...uk/scrapbook/02

After I bought the car a new book came out on Lolas and I bought a copy and read it with great interest.
It was stated in the book that the car I had bought was probably the Swede Savage/Dan Gurney car from 1968 with a chain of ownership leading to the person I bought the car from. Also this car was listed with the same chain of ownership on Martin Krescki's site ( [url="http://wsrp.ic.cz/chassis/chassis_lola_canam.html"]http://wsrp.ic.cz/ch...lola_canam.html) . The previous owner (Nick) did not have any information about the previous race history beyond the past few owners and I have no quarrel with him or anyone else regarding this car.
This Savage/Gurney connection was great news as I also had the 1966 Lola/Ford T70 that Gurney had driven in the Can Am. My collection was starting to look like more than an old garage full of wrecks.
For the next two years we restored the car (Blue #36) and that was a great experience, but It was a T163 or T165 chassis, not a T160. Came to find out it had been crashed at least twice and updated. It had a T165 body. All of the suspension and plumbing looked very old and original. The chassis while old looking was clearly not an original T160 chassis and had a repair to the right rear.
Also it had an old big block Chevy, not a Ford, but came to find out that 160/4 ended it's racing back in the day with a Chevy .

As is the case with all my cars, I initiated a detailed review of this car's history.
I have recently received information from a well known author and Lola expert that according to a mechanic for Orly Thornsjo, the car Thornsjo had was NEVER owned or driven by Jerry Hansen or Fred Baker,
and that the car Thornsjo had is now under restoration in a shop in Oregon (Bill Moir's shop).
This Oregon car has in its box of old parts a set of Ford engine mounts and a file of paperwork showing ownership back to Thornsjo.

The information means that my car is not the Thornsjo car, and if the thornsjo car was the Savage/Gurney car then I have put the wrong livery on my car.
It also stands to reason that if Jerry Hansen had the Savage/Gurney car but the Thornsjo car was never owned or driven by Hansen then the Oregon car is something other than the Savage/Gurney car, or that AAR had more than one car, or Hansen or Thornsjo had more than one car,
or that my car is a something other than what it was thought to be.

The information shows Jerry hansen had more than one T160 series car and it is possible that this is one of his other cars and should perhaps be painted orange or red and have the number 44 (like it was when I bought it )!

The problem is that months ago I entered my car in the Monterey races as blue #36. They need a picture for the program asap. I have perhaps a week to paint the car, which I can do.

As a result of the new information:
I have contacted Gerald Swan at Lola heritage and removed the Savage/Gurney history from my car until this is sorted out, although I have kept the chassis number at present because nobody is sure what chassis Gurney/Savage had or if there was only one car with that number (meaning shenanigans back in the day).
I have contacted the organizer of the race and explained the situation, offering to withdraw the car, and they have left it up to me to either run the car as is or repaint the car orange and race it with the number 44 (they were big fans of Jerry Hansen and were very excited at the chance to see the livery) if I have in good faith tried to determine the true livery. They do not wish for me to withdraw the car. Their words were: "please do not withdraw your great car".
I have contacted the person restoring the Oregon car that may be the Gurney /Savage T160 and alerted them to the situation as well as offer free Olsonite decals ! They relay that they are going to run the #48 anyway so it would probably be ok for me to be #36 (Swede Savage's son has seen pictures of the car and was excited to hear of it.

This all said, I just want to race the car. That is all I want to do. It all looks the same from behind the steering wheel !

My question is simple. Have I covered enough bases to avoid accusations of impropriety ?
If I repaint it now I really do not have enough information to pick a livery with any degree of certainty but if anyone knows how to get in touch with Jerry Hansen I would love to return to that livery, or even just go to that livery as a tribute to such a great driver. I understand he used to give away his trophys to fans and press after the race. Can't beat that !
Your help and opinions appreciated greatly as I only have a few days to decide what to do and then get that accomplished.

Sincerely,
Johan


Note: I edited this post to change the State of Arizona to the correct state of Oregon.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 16 April 2012 - 18:29.

[opplock]

I cannot claim any expertise on the provenance of Can Am cars but the obvious answer is yes. You have informed TNF members, the race organisers and others that the car has an uncertain history. As the organisers said "please do not withdraw your great car".

The only impropriety would be in trying to pass the car off as something that it isn't. Unfortunately many others would do so. Your honesty is commendable.

[D-Type]

I think you've covered everything.

You could write a storyboard to display with it giving the known history and the main questions and end with the question "Can you help with any of its history?"

Edited by D-Type, 25 June 2011 - 15:52.

[SCHKEE T332]

I agree on the storyboard. By the way, we made a nose with headlights so that we can run the night races at Sebring. The image of the car at Road america is from Walter at Concept Cars.
We also have a proper nose with no headlights.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 25 June 2011 - 16:13.

[arttidesco]

Great to see some commendable transparency Johan

What ever colours you choose to run the car I hope you have a great time at Road America and that more information arises to help you clarify your cars history.

Don't forget to post some pics of your adventure for us folks on the far side of the pond

[E1pix]

I have PMed you with regards to contacting Jerry Hansen.

I believe that Jerry's orange T165 was originally the Simoniz-Chuck Parsons car, but am not sure. I also believe he had a "T160-series" car for a short period that was either purple or dark blue, and if the latter color that may well been your car — or the same car as the orange one. I was not quite 10 yet so these memories are quite sketchy, apologies.

"RAhistorian" will likely know but it's a race weekend at Road America — so he may not check in here until Monday. I do know he has photos of the orange T165.

And, you might wish to re-post the Lola Heritage link.... it's not working, at least not on my Safari browser.

Edited by E1pix, 25 June 2011 - 17:40.

[Tim Murray]

And, you might wish to re-post the Lola Heritage link.... it's not working, at least not on my Safari browser.

There's one too many 'http' in Johan's link - this should work:

http://www.lolaherit...ook/025/67b.htm

I absolutely agree that Johan is doing all he can to establish the true identity of his car and deserves every commendation.

[E1pix]

Thanks for re-posting this link, good catch! It works now.

The car(s) I recall did utilize the high rear wing (perhaps removed for their potential safety vagaries?).

Edited by E1pix, 25 June 2011 - 17:44.

[Doug Nye]

Good effort Schkee. We would give you a run simply for being so frank ... plus having at least some semblance of a proper car as well...

DCN

[Jerry Entin]

Johan: I have sent your thoughts on to Jerry Hansen. I will tell you his answer when he gives it.
As Doug has said. Everything you are stating is to the best of your knowledge. I wouldn't be afraid to run the car as is. No one will question your sincerity as to trying to run the correct car.

[SCHKEE T332]

Johan: I wouldn't be afraid to run the car as is.

Jerry, is it ok if I am afraid while I am actually behind the wheel ? Not sure there is a cure for that. Part of the allure I think.
Thanks all for the comments and suggestions. I can live with grand dad's axe, just wish I knew which grand dad and what color the handle was. My purpose is not to disparage
any other car or become embroiled in opposing history debates, but rather to enjoy the car at the races today without the controversy
associated with a spurious livery. I feel that we are on the right track to get the most out of the experience.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 25 June 2011 - 22:06.

[RA Historian]

OK, here is the rundown on Jerry Hansen's Lolas that are pertinent to this thread.

Hansen had TWO T-160s in 1969, and one T-165 in 1970.

First Lola T-160:Over the winter of 1968-69 Hansen purchased the T-160 of George Bignotti, which ran some Can Ams in 1968 driven by Mario Andretti. The car was painted red when run by Bignotti, and Hansen ran the car in red for the half season that he owned it. It was a medium to bright red in color.

Second Lola T-160: half way through the 1969 season Hansen sold the first T-160 and bought the All American Racers T-160 that had been driven by both Gurney and Savage. It was in AAR dark blue and Hansen kept it in that color, with some orange pin striping added. Hansen won the 1969 August Blackhawk Farms SCCA race in this car, but two weeks later the car was driven by Fred Baker in the 1969 Road America Can Am. I cannot tell you for sure if Baker actually owned the car or if he merely drove it for Hansen. The Penske M6B proto (M6A/3) was also involved in some horse trading between Hansen and Baker.

Enter Orly Thornsjo. In 1970 Thornsjo raced a Lola T-160. At the Milwaukee SCCA Regional in June, 1970, I talked to Thornsjo and he told me that he bought the car from Hansen. Was it the first or second Hansen Lola? The color of Orly's Lola was red, which may indicate the first Hansen T-160. Also, Hansen sold the first Lola in mid 1969 whereas Thornsjo told me that he bought his T-160 "over the winter". Further, Thornsjo raced a McLaren M1B all through 1969; if he bought the first Hansen T-160 would he not have used that as soon as he could rather than carry on with an older McLaren for the rest of the year? And....Thornsjo said that he "thought this was the Gurney car".

So, Thornsjo had a T-160 and it definitely was a Hansen T-160. Which one I cannot say with 100% certainty, but it certainly seems to be the AAR car.

Lola T-165. Hansen bought a NEW T-165 over the winter of 1969-70. The car was purchased through Carl Haas. It was NOT a used car, and definitely not the car that Chuck Parsons drove for Carl Haas with Simoniz sponsorship. That car was a T-163, and was sold to Dick Durant after the 1969 season. Durant drove it for a number of years thereafter. This new T-165 was orange.

All three Hansen cars detailed above carried number 44. The photo linked above of a red #44 with a T-163 type body is not a Hansen car.

So, where are we? Thornsjo had a Hansen T-160, likely the AAR car. Also, it appears that Johan's car is a Hansen car, and I wish I could tell him whether to paint it red or AAR blue, but I cannot be that specific and sure. Neither of Hansen's T-160s were painted orange, but the T-165 was.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 26 June 2011 - 14:17.

[RA Historian]

The image of the car at Road america is from Walter at Concept Cars.

Photo is from a vintage race.
Tom

[E1pix]

.... enjoy the car at the races today without the controversy
associated with a spurious livery. I feel that we are on the right track to get the most out of the experience.

If I may.... as a lifetime fan, and former sign painter of over 500 race cars.... please take the time to find a qualified sign person who cares about absolute authenticity — one who shares your concerns, and your vision. Time and again I see these great cars painted "close enough," wherein in my view there's only "replicated properly" in terms of graphic re-creation, and "close enough" is never even close to good enough.

I truly believe that if all vintage cars were re-created properly as originally decorated, interest in vintage racing would gain by leaps and bounds by bringing us crazed fans' memories back precisely as remembered. Imagine a grid full of cars appearing just as they were in the day.... and the concept comes clear. As a vintage owner, you have that power.

If you have the graphics done in vinyl, please find as many reference photos as you can (like RAhistorian's and other's) so the art prep can be done properly. Most just find a stock font style that's, again, "close enough." I can tell you that when I was in that business (which I've never quite left, I suppose), my favorite customers by far were the ones who were the pickiest. It might cost you a few hours of labor more, but it's worth it whenever someone comes up and knows what they're looking at. And we're out there....

Enjoy your Experience! And Yes, a bit of fear behind the wheel is only healthy.

Edited by E1pix, 26 June 2011 - 01:20.

[RA Historian]

UPDATE ON HANSEN LOLA T-160s

First, the two T-160s were both powered by small block Chevy V-8s. Hansen's first big block was in the 1970 T-165.

Now, some new thoughts on which car is which. This morning I went back and looked through my photos of the 1969/1970 seasons to see if I could detect differences between the Hansen Lola T-160s. Needless to say, they were quite similar. However, I did detect a couple differences.

The first car, the former Bignotti car, had a full width roll bar with no center brace. The second car, the former AAR car, had the same shape full width roll bar, but with a center brace extending rearward.

The first car had a very tall and pronounced rear spoiler, with large side fences extending forward onto the rear fenders. The second car had a much smaller rear spoiler with smaller tapered side fences.

Now to the Thornsjo T-160. Photos I took of this car at two different races in 1970 show the same roll bar arrangement as on the second, AAR car. That is, a full width roll bar with rearward bracing. Also, the rear bodywork on the Thornsjo car is the same as on the AAR/Hansen car. That is, smaller spoiler with tapered side fences.

The conclusion? Orly Thornsjo owned the second Hansen Lola T-160, the former All American Racers car as driven by Dan Gurney and Swede Savage.

Tom

[SCHKEE T332]

This is the quote from Ron Spargo, Thornjo's crew chief...from a couple weeks ago, regarding the Oregon car:

"The T160 Lola came to us through Carl Haas from the Gurney shops. Neither
Jerry Hanson or Fred Baker ever owned or drove this car. The car was set up
for a Ford engine and much engineering and fabrication was needed to fit the
small block Chevy engine. This was the car that turned our Team from a loose
group of "tail-wagers" into, in my opinion, the most professional amateur
team on the circuit. No one said we couldn't do it so we just went ahead and
did it!"
It is the above referenced car that is now in Oregon with the claim to being the Gurney car.

Tom, this does not jive with your info so are you positive it is accurate? Especially the part about the
Chevy small blocks ? Did Thornsjo have 2 T160s then, perhaps one hidden away for parts ?
There are several possible scenarios here and several courses of action.
As I stated, my car has been rechassied once, possibly twice. Where are the old chassis ?
If my car was an outright fabrication using old parts here and there (basically everything but the chassis),
then how did it get the 160/4 plate ? John Mason was not likely to put a spurious plate on the car.
He had been looking after it for a long time and never told the previous owner that he built the car from scratch.
McClendon is the shop that recently painted the car (they have all of the individual bodywork stands and do a great job)
and they looked at some of the details of the car and pointed
out ways to make the car safer with various doubling plates and replacement of the style of heim joints etc.
so it does not seem likely that they built the car and flat out denied it when I asked them.

The overriding factor in all of this makes the course of action clear.
At BEST, all I have is granddad's axe no matter what the books and websites said at the time I bought the car.
At worst, I have some sort of car built from a managerie of parts. It does not make sense though that the car
has no roots because these cars were not worth a lot 15-20 years ago, certainly less than the cost of constructing a new one.
I could argue this and that but choose not to for four reasons.

1.) I do not wish to appear to disparage anybody's car or project.
2.) My heart is not in it because I have doubts myself about the historical significance of my car due to the changes to the newer style tub, body and engine manufacturer.
3.) I am happy with the car and feel fortunate to have the opportunity to drive a big block can am car.
4.) I know more about the other car than I do my own.

All I know about my own car is that a fellow named Herb Holtsman bought or brought two can am cars "out west" and took them to McClendon to have them made raceworthy. McClendon had John Mason do the Chassis work and engine work and McClendon did the Bodywork. As I understand it one of those cars had the chassis plate 160/4 and the other car had no chassis plate but when finished was possibly sold to a kid named levison who died and his father sold that car to Bud Romack who sold it to Tom Stapleton who sold it to a guy in italy as a coupe. That car was known as the Bignotti car, or SL160/1 the other Hansen car. I have seen pictures of that chassis and it is very similar to mine. Herb Holtsman is incognito having sold his business and his racing organization (Eagle Racing).

The previous all said for future reference sake and it is all heresay. I do believe the car in Oregon has a paperwork trail. I do not believe they are up to anything shady.
I think the thing for me to do at this point is to politely ask them and Swede Savage's son if they would mind terribly if I ran the car as #36 as a tribute to Swede Savage,
at least for the Monterey race. I have asked and am waiting for an answer prior to asking Savage jr. They are going to run their car as Gurney #48 when it is completed.
Long term (or possibly very short term)I would like to ask Jerry Hanson the same favor regarding his livery. This I believe has already been done through Jerry Entin.

This is all I can think of to do. History is a set of facts and I do not have enough of those facts to form an interpretation that I feel comfortable with.
If they both say no perhaps I will paint the car papaya and put number 7 on it as a tribute to Peter Revson (just kidding )!

p.s. E1pix, regarding the graphics: If you come to Road America please bring your kit and we will keep you busy !

Note: I edited this post to change the State of Arizona to the correct state of Oregon and to correct a name

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 16 April 2012 - 18:24.

[E1pix]

p.s. E1pix, regarding the graphics: If you come to Road America please bring your kit and we will keep you busy !

Oh Man, tempt me already! We're not coming unfortunately.... mountains to climb, photos to shoot, best flowers in years....

You might consider contacting Herm Johnson in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. I assume he still does hand-lettering, and he's the guy who inspired to do it to begin with, when I was 16. I have his number if you can't find him. I believe the Dresangs also have a good person for this, and that sign guy's in Milwaukee if I'm not mistaken.

If you go the vinyl route, I might be able to fit in the design prep if you let me know asap. If you had 24 hours to kill in Denver en route, I might be able to locate a qualified person for you.... a friend of mine here co-owns a major paint shop that has great artists for this. We're hoping to leave for a month minimum, sometime before July 10.

No matter what you do, Enjoy Every Tenth!

Edited by E1pix, 26 June 2011 - 18:13.

[SCHKEE T332]

Gotta determine the livery first.

[E1pix]

Gotta determine the livery first.

For Sure, and Good Luck in your DD!

[RA Historian]

Tom, this does not jive with your info so are you positive it is accurate? Especially the part about the
Chevy small blocks ?

All I can say is what I observed and was told first hand back in those days. Hansen had two Lola T-160s. Both were powered by small block Chevy V-8s, according to both contemporary reports and my observations. The first was ex-Bignotti, and the second was ex-AAR, and I was told this directly by Hansen himself upon my first observation of the car at Blackhawk Farms in August, 1969. This second car was still in its dark blue AAR color, with some lettering and pinstriping added in orange. Then, when I talked to Orly Thornsjo in June, 1970, he told me that he not only bought the car from Hansen but "thought this was the Gurney car". Further, as I indicated earlier, my photographs of both Hansen cars and the Thornsjo car indicate, at least to me, that the Thornsjo car is ex-AAR.

That is what I recall, and what I think based upon my memory and photographs. I go by what I was told by both Hansen and Thornsjo. I do not think that the mechanic you quote is lying; not at all. Just that his memory may be wrong. I am not claiming papal infallibility here, but do recall my direct conversations with Jerry Hansen and with Orly Thornsjo. The conversations were always separate, never the two together, and I believe what I was told. Unless I have overlooked something very important and until I am proven wrong, I will have to stick with my statements and recollections of my observations of the car and my direct conversations about them with both Hansen and Thornsjo.

I will send you a PM about one name that you mentioned that I do not want to post here.


Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 26 June 2011 - 23:06.

[RA Historian]

Johan,

Just had a phone conversation with another very knowledgeable person from the day who completely verifies my account as listed above. I am sending you another PM with the info.

Tom

[SCHKEE T332]

Tom, thanks for the info and I do not disagree. Compare your info with the info from the crew chief and it seems like we are talking about two different cars, and here we are with two different cars, maybe more ! I look forward to seeing you at RA.
In any event, my situation is about the same and I would be repeating myself to go into it further when I would love to move forward with some type of authorized livery. I feel we have made progress on that issue and am grateful !

[SCHKEE T332]

Photo is from a vintage race.
Tom

Of course it is, I am trying to show off my headlights !

[SCHKEE T332]

I am reviving this old thread because new information has come to light which is worth sharing. A person has recently made application to Lola Heritage to be listed as the owner of a car which has been
thought to be a different car for over 20 years, and a car which I own. With the application properly made to Lola Heritage and the research perused by those involved I have the pleasure to announce
that the car owned by "the other guy" has more right to the chassis history than my car does. That said, and with my full concurrance, my car has been removed from reference to the chassis history of the 1968 AAR Lola T160 and another car has taken its rightful place. I am only slightly saddened in this outcome, and who wouldn't be, but I had a wonderful time restoring the car with my son and we shall certainly continue to race it, sans the Gurney livery to the best of our ability. We will at least change the number from 36 back to 44 as it was when we got it.
The fact that the "other" car is being restored and that we find it to be, beyond reasonable doubt, the Savage/Gurney car is very exciting to me as a lover of old Lolas, and this is exactly what Lola Heritage is supposed to be about. Certainly a couple of questions remain that indicate that there were more than one car being confused as the same car, but it is very clear to me in looking at Tom Schultz' photos and listening to the opinion of Ike Smith regarding the modification for the FORD starter that no matter what Jerry Hansen had, and no matter where Orly Thornsjo got however many cars he got, and no matter what the actual chassis numbers were of any of the cars involved, the new car that has applied was both Thornsjo's and the AAR Lola T160. Thanks to all for their efforts in successfully bringing an original car to light.

[E1pix]

Nice job. It's always great to hear of another historical loophole coming to an accurate close.

[dbltop]

Threads like this make me glad to be too poor to even consider buying a historic race car.

[E1pix]

I suspect that'd change with the first push of the right foot.