57 replies to this topic

[GMACKIE]

Where could one find individual lap times, and 'Con-rod straight' speeds for this race? Any ideas?

[Ray Bell]

I think you'd have to find result sheets from the circuit...

Though some results weren't completely compiled until the following week.

Tough task, unless you find someone who was entered and kept a record.

[johnny yuma]

Oldest I can fing is 1964.
Ian Geoghegan,Cortina GT 3:21.3 FASTEST LAP TIME, 21st lap.
Warren Weldon,Burt Needham,Studebaker Lark,114.65 mph,Fastest flying one eighth timed.

[Ellis French]

This site has the results but no individual laptimes...

http://www.uniquecar...thurst_1963.htm

A familiar name appears in 30th position

Edited by Ellis French, 27 June 2011 - 08:12.

[cooper997]

Greg,

I assume this has something to do with your own entry in said event.

Finding figures relating to lap times and the flying 1/8 mile is easier said than done. But I have found the following in a rare source - Racing Car News. But their one and only annual, published in 1964.

This is what they said & quote.
"For students of speed alone, here are the quickest times recorded by each make through the flying eigth mile on Con-Rod Straight... cars have a downhill run into the measured section.

114 Studebaker Lark
106 Valiant
105 Cortina GT, Holden S4
103 Zephyr
102 Humber Automatic
101 Vauxhall Velox
98 Peugeot 404, Cortina 1500, Morris Cooper
92 Holden FB
91 Renault R8
88 Simca, Renault Gordini, Volkswagen 1200
87 Morris 850
85 Morris Elite, Herald 1200
81 Fiat 770
- ends (all figures in mph)"

So were you the fastest of the 5 VWs? Jack Bono preparation??

Stephen

[Lee Nicolle]

This site has the results but no individual laptimes...

http://www.uniquecar...thurst_1963.htm

A familiar name appears in 30th position

And a couple of those names are still out there racing!
And a few TNFers too.

[GMACKIE]

Greg,

I assume this has something to do with your own entry in said event.

Finding figures relating to lap times and the flying 1/8 mile is easier said than done. But I have found the following in a rare source - Racing Car News. But their one and only annual, published in 1964.

This is what they said & quote.
"For students of speed alone, here are the quickest times recorded by each make through the flying eigth mile on Con-Rod Straight... cars have a downhill run into the measured section.

114 Studebaker Lark
106 Valiant
105 Cortina GT, Holden S4
103 Zephyr
102 Humber Automatic
101 Vauxhall Velox
98 Peugeot 404, Cortina 1500, Morris Cooper
92 Holden FB
91 Renault R8
88 Simca, Renault Gordini, Volkswagen 1200
87 Morris 850
85 Morris Elite, Herald 1200
81 Fiat 770
- ends (all figures in mph)"

So were you the fastest of the 5 VWs? Jack Bono preparation??

Stephen

After a long search through my 'stuff', I have decided that most of my records of my past racing have been lost.

I felt that my lap time, and flying eighth speed were the quickest of the VWs, in 1963, but cannot confirm this.

Macquarie Motors, Bathurst, prepared the VW, not Jack. Having 60,000 miles on the clock, it was nicely run it, and it was shouted a new clutch, valves & springs, and a set of Cinturas!

Rex Ellis, of Macquarie Motors was really chuffed about the VWs beating the Morris Majors. I have a feeling that Rex and Barry Gurdon had a bit of a wager going!

[cooper997]

Greg,

Sounds like you've moved house too many times if the 'stuff' has gone.

Not doubting you about the potential wager between the 2 Bathurst car dealers, but just to clarify things, the VWs were in Class A - up to £900. The Morris 850 (Mini) was in this class too. The Morris Major and Morris Coopers were in Class B.

ARDC President, Bill Ford & Barry Ferguson won Class A in a VW. So I guess there was potentially some rivalry in the VW camps? Love to read more on how you got Rex Ellis, at Macquarie Motors to prepare the car. Was that their 'sponsorship' of you? Or was it coming out of your pocket?

You might like to ask Ellis to link the Bathurst photo he's just posted for you, into this thread.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

I found some lap times, but they are from practice...

Muir/Martin (S4 Holden) on 3:29, unnamed GT Cortinas 'only tenths behind', and then the Studebaker Lark on 3:31 to be ahead of McKay's Vauxhall Velox on 3:34.

This is from the Tuckey/Chevron book and there's a notable 'N/A' in the space for 'Fastest Lap' on the result page.

[GMACKIE]

Greg,

Sounds like you've moved house too many times if the 'stuff' has gone.

Not doubting you about the potential wager between the 2 Bathurst car dealers, but just to clarify things, the VWs were in Class A - up to £900. The Morris 850 (Mini) was in this class too. The Morris Major and Morris Coopers were in Class B.

ARDC President, Bill Ford & Barry Ferguson won Class A in a VW. So I guess there was potentially some rivalry in the VW camps? Love to read more on how you got Rex Ellis, at Macquarie Motors to prepare the car. Was that their 'sponsorship' of you? Or was it coming out of your pocket?

You might like to ask Ellis to link the Bathurst photo he's just posted for you, into this thread.

Stephen

Stephen,

Barry and Rex were having a friendly discussions about the VW verses the Morris Major, [just a 'car-dealer' thing, and not about classes] and it appeared to me that there may have been a wager involved.;) I'm pretty sure that Barry Gurdon [and possibly Bill Chadwick] had a financial interest in Macquarie Motors.

The car that I drove was entered by Macquarie Motors, however, I think it was supplied by Bill Ford's employer,Lannock Motors. VW Aust may have been involved, also?

The 'Bathurst photo' was of my Appendix J VW, at the Easter, 1963 meeting.

Greg

Edited by GMACKIE, 27 June 2011 - 23:44.

[johnny yuma]

Interesting to consider what times "SHOPPING TROLLEY" cars get today at Bathurst.They rarely appear of course,but a Hyundai Sonata posted a 3:01 for the 2008 Bathurst 12 Hour.Makes the legendary cars of the early 60s look slow,and is about as fast a lap as the first Falcon GT V8 of 1967 !

[Team Result]

Interesting to consider what times "SHOPPING TROLLEY" cars get today at Bathurst.They rarely appear of course,but a Hyundai Sonata posted a 3:01 for the 2008 Bathurst 12 Hour.Makes the legendary cars of the early 60s look slow,and is about as fast a lap as the first Falcon GT V8 of 1967 !

Yes, a sub-3min lap was considered impressive, not so long ago. 'Course the detour inserted in Conrod Straight in the early '80's slowed lap times by about ten? seconds. So, if your time machine was large enough, the Sonata could have been on pole in 1967!

[Ellis French]

Greg's 1963 Easter Bathurst Esses pic.........

Edited by Ellis French, 28 June 2011 - 02:45.

[GMACKIE]

Greg's 1963 Easter Bathurst Esses pic.........

Thanks Ellis,

That was Easter, 1963. My Appendix J Beetle, ahead of [I think] Des Leonard, in the Valiant. We must have been lapping at almost the same times, as he would hurtle past me down Conrod, then I would take him under brakes at Murray's. Past me again up Mountain Straight, then I'd take him again just before, or in, the Esses. This went on lap after lap, but I was just able to pip him on the line. One my all-time favourite 'dices'!

The Beetle clocked 102 MPH down Conrod, by the way [probably helped by slipping in behind a 'fast' car]. I drove it to and from events, and everywhere else.

Cheers, Greg

[johnny yuma]

Yes, a sub-3min lap was considered impressive, not so long ago. 'Course the detour inserted in Conrod Straight in the early '80's slowed lap times by about ten? seconds. So, if your time machine was large enough, the Sonata could have been on pole in 1967!

.....The Caltex Chase does make it a bit longer,but the track is so much smoother and wider the difference 1964 to 2011 is probably only 3 or 4 seconds, depending on the car.

[Ray Bell]

Not even that, I'd suggest...

In fact, it would be quicker than it was in '63 for the same cars.

[johnny yuma]

Not even that, I'd suggest...

In fact, it would be quicker than it was in '63 for the same cars.

You know I think you're probably right. The only lingering doubt I have is that the part of the circuit abandoned was top speed,but the left
hander in the chase is a tight corner.Assuming 300 kmh on the abandoned bit,google earth a distance,stopwatch a v8 supercar on the replacement bit,get the difference,
subtract 6 seconds from that for track improvements.....is the answer a plus or minus number ?

[Ray Bell]

But why do the comparison with something so fast?

Nothing that fast was running there in 1963. 169.81mph was the top speed recorded. And many backed off for the final hump anyway.

Consider, for instance, the vastly improved traction there is today on the climb out of the Cutting, and just how much difference the faster run onto both Mountain and Conrod Straights would make over long distances.

[GMACKIE]

Interesting to consider what times "SHOPPING TROLLEY" cars get today at Bathurst.They rarely appear of course,but a Hyundai Sonata posted a 3:01 for the 2008 Bathurst 12 Hour.Makes the legendary cars of the early 60s look slow,and is about as fast a lap as the first Falcon GT V8 of 1967 !

Wind the clock back ANOTHER 45 years from 1963, and what would you find?

[Ray Bell]

Bald Mountain with a few goat tracks leading to the top...

Not even a McPhillamy Park up there!

[johnny yuma]

Bald Mountain with a few goat tracks leading to the top...

Not even a McPhillamy Park up there!

Hmm a Stanley Steamer was fastest at Pikes Peak for some time !

[seldo]

You know I think you're probably right. The only lingering doubt I have is that the part of the circuit abandoned was top speed,but the left
hander in the chase is a tight corner.Assuming 300 kmh on the abandoned bit,google earth a distance,stopwatch a v8 supercar on the replacement bit,get the difference,
subtract 6 seconds from that for track improvements.....is the answer a plus or minus number ?

You forgot to add the year of your birth and then take away the number you first thought of....;)

[GMACKIE]

You forgot to add the year of your birth and then take away the number you first thought of....;)

Ha Ha, good one!

[seldo]

For comparison's sake, I spent half an hour via Google trying to find (unsuccessfully) a lap time for Pete's Mustang at Bathurst in 66/67. It would also be interesting to see how the Group N cars compare today, without taking your thread too far off-track.

[Ray Bell]

Okay... Pete did 2:40 in 1966, Jane did 2:44 in 1967 (Pete wasn't there) and Pete returned with a 2:35 in 1968.

1969 saw him just under 2:30, 1970 was about the same, 1971 2:29.2, 1972 Moffat eclipsed all with 2:22.4, Pete did 2:24 in the Super Falcon.

Worth bearing in mind is the fact that today's Group N cars have more power and better rubber, of course.

[johnny yuma]

The faster Group N cars were gobbled up by Biante Series with greater freedoms some years back,but just before this Paul Stubber held the Group N C record at Bathurst in a 350 Camaro at 2.29 in 2002.Makes the old "improved production" times listed by Ray Bell from John Medley's Bathurst Bible even more impressive.For my money the 1966 2:40 of Geoghegans in a 289 ci Mustang in the most impressive,and would see you well up on a Group N grid today ,maybe even on pole depending on who turned up.
BTW what year did Pete's second mustang appear at the Mount ?

[Ray Bell]

That would have to have been in 1968...

Niel Allen was also there that year in his similar car.

If I remember correctly, Stubber had over 600hp, didn't he?

[Catalina Park]

My fasted lap at Bathurst in the HQ was a 3.04 (with a misfire!) the record was a 3.01. (I don't know what it is now)
Not bad for a 6 cylinder, 3 speed box and a single carby.

There is a lot of bits on the track that are faster than they used to be, Skyline, the esses and the dipper are faster now. There is no jump out of the cutting that lifted the back wheels off the deck, Quarry bend is also faster.

The HQ would do 120mph down Con-rod, 110mph up Mountain Straight and would reach 100 again in the second part of Con-rod after the chase.

Edited by Catalina Park, 30 June 2011 - 07:19.

[Ray Bell]

And all on radials, right?

Even so, the track doesn't comply with current FIA circuit width requirements...

[Catalina Park]

Yep, and the radials didn't have a high enough speed rating either!

The track does not comply for a lot of reasons. You would also think that they would move the spectators out of an area that has been a "work in progress" for the last ten years until they complete the safety upgrade.

[seldo]

Okay... Pete did 2:40 in 1966, Jane did 2:44 in 1967 (Pete wasn't there) and Pete returned with a 2:35 in 1968.

1969 saw him just under 2:30, 1970 was about the same, 1971 2:29.2, 1972 Moffat eclipsed all with 2:22.4, Pete did 2:24 in the Super Falcon.

Worth bearing in mind is the fact that today's Group N cars have more power and better rubber, of course.

Thanks Ray - Pretty impressive really - although it does add more strength to the original question of how much slower/faster the actual track is today. I'd have thought that there would be probably 2 secs faster in the cars' specs, and probably the same in todays' tyres, maybe more...

[johnny yuma]

That would have to have been in 1968...

Niel Allen was also there that year in his similar car.

If I remember correctly, Stubber had over 600hp, didn't he?

Never read a bhp figure on Stubber's Camaro,but he had enough to power drift turn 1 at eastern creek in top gear ,with wafts of blue smoke ,while leading a race. There was a buzz in the crowd that day ! .Never seen any other sedan do that ! I'm guessing Stubber had an unusually low diff ratio and reliably high revving engine,as used by Moffat at Bathurst setting his 2:22 way back in early 70s.I'd love to see what Pete Geoghegan could have done with Turn 1,Eastern Creek,in his heyday in the Mustang.

Edited by johnny yuma, 01 July 2011 - 00:18.

[cheapracer]

91 Renault R8

Wasn't that Modern Motor's R'ate? The "91mph" seems to recall me reading an article about the increase in speed to that after "blueprinting" not that I read it in '63 as I couldn't read yet! - prob an old copy of Dad's I would have read late 60's.

If so maybe you can find more info in their mag around the time?

[Ray Bell]

There were a few R8s in the race...

Among them one with Total stripes and shared by Frank Matich and George Murray.

[Lee Nicolle]

That would have to have been in 1968...

Niel Allen was also there that year in his similar car.

If I remember correctly, Stubber had over 600hp, didn't he?

I doubt that Stubber would have had 600 hp with legal heads. But the car was geared alternatly for high top speed and then accelaration [hooning] at that meeting so the story goes.

[Ray Bell]

What about we get a bit scientific about this?

The Chase came in 1987, right? So a comparison of times from '86 and then 87 for similar cars might tell us what time the Chase added to the lap.

Perkins in the Commodore VK had a lap in 2:19.433 qualifying for the '86 race... and in a Commodore VK in '87 he qualified in 2:24.209. Almost five seconds. Grice in a Vk in '86 did 2:17.246, in '87 in a VL he did 2:23.626 - 6.4 seconds down. Fastest lap in the race in '86 was 2:18.99 for Grice, '87 it was 2:22.5 for Miedecke in a Sierra. It's odds-on that the Sierra was a quicker car than a Commodore so that's consistent with a five or so seconds extension of the lap time.

The rest of it is down to circuit, tyre and car improvements.

[seldo]

What about we get a bit scientific about this?

The Chase came in 1987, right? So a comparison of times from '86 and then 87 for similar cars might tell us what time the Chase added to the lap.

Perkins in the Commodore VK had a lap in 2:19.433 qualifying for the '86 race... and in a Commodore VK in '87 he qualified in 2:24.209. Almost five seconds. Grice in a Vk in '86 did 2:17.246, in '87 in a VL he did 2:23.626 - 6.4 seconds down. Fastest lap in the race in '86 was 2:18.99 for Grice, '87 it was 2:22.5 for Miedecke in a Sierra. It's odds-on that the Sierra was a quicker car than a Commodore so that's consistent with a five or so seconds extension of the lap time.

The rest of it is down to circuit, tyre and car improvements.

By way of comparison, in '83 I was clocked at 275kph in the XD and I believe that stood for some years until after the circuit was changed with the Chase.

[GMACKIE]

Looks as though 1963 '500' is a 'lost cause' then.

[Ray Bell]

Never give up...

On TNF we've had people come back and answer questions unanswered for five and six years!

[GMACKIE]

Five or six years! Geez Ray, I'd better check my 'Use By Date' if it will take that long.

[cooper997]

Greg,

I've looked through the reports in all the period magazines I have with an 1963 Armstrong 500 report, the best I could do was the fastest 1/8 mile times I've already posted from the RCN Annual.

It's fair to say that because of the nature of this race in the early years, and the ballot system that gave each entry their start position, the practice/race lap times were considered superfluous at the time. Even David McKay's report in Modern Motor Dec 63 has very little in way of times. The times Ray mentions from the Tuckey book, clearly came from this report.

There was chap named David Greenhaigh involved with the now defunct Motor Racing Australia magazine and appears to have kept race stats (assuming he ever found any for the 1963 event). One would also assume Tuckey had pestered the ARDC for these sort of details when the Bathurst book was being researched.

The other point is that one TNF member with the initials - John Medley - did a book on Bathurst. I know the Armstrongs, etc weren't his focal point, but potentially there may have been something that surfaced during his research. Having stated that though, John might have already stuck his hand up on this subject if he did know of something.

Stephen

[275 GTB-4]

Bill Forsythes excellent shot of the Mackie VW and Leonard Valiant in the Esses (Easter Bathurst 1963)

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 04 November 2012 - 10:51.

[275 GTB-4]

and one taken only about a month ago...seems Mr Mackie just can't corner on all four ;-)
 

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 03 May 2015 - 00:44.

[275 GTB-4]

In John Medleys book, for Easter 1963:

Fastest Lap = Lex Davison, 1962 Cooper Climax 2:25:9 (McKay)

Event 6 - Touring Car Scratch Race (8 Laps at 1305)

G Mackie VW 1286, First in 1101-1300cc. Fastest Lap 3:24.1

2nd H. Fenton Pug 203
3rd N. Saville Pug 203

So...the Bug beat the Pugs

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 17 February 2013 - 02:35.

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure John's book doesn't say that...

I'll check when I get home. And are we sure that's not Bob Cooke's Valiant?

[David McKinney]

I'm sure John's book doesn't say that...

My copy of it does

[Repco22]

My copy of it does

Mine doesn't say 'Davidson'!

[David McKinney]

I presumed that was so obvious it didn't need drawing attention to

Unless of course that was the point Ray was trying to make?

[GMACKIE]

I'm sure John's book doesn't say that...

I'll check when I get home. And are we sure that's not Bob Cooke's Valiant?

It was Des Leonard in the Valiant.

What I was REALLY after was information on the OCTOBER, 1963 meeting [Armstrong 500].

[275 GTB-4]

Mine doesn't say 'Davidson'!

Thanks Rep...my post dosen't now, neither!