36 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

Following on from the 2010 Cosworth thread.

The two most competitive teams running the engines have jumped ship, leaving only HRT and Virgin on their own at the back.

There's nothing to suggest the Cosworths are more expensive than any other engine, so there's nothing to suggest either Virgin or HRT following suit.

But how few teams can Cosworth supply before it becomes too expensive to participate?

[cbbcisace]

Following on from the 2010 Cosworth thread.

The two most competitive teams running the engines have jumped ship, leaving only HRT and Virgin on their own at the back.

There's nothing to suggest the Cosworths are more expensive than any other engine, so there's nothing to suggest either Virgin or HRT following suit.

But how few teams can Cosworth supply before it becomes too expensive to participate?

I personally don't see Cosworth being in the sport past 2014.

Hispania will move to Ferrari engines and Virgin to Mercedes. - Just wild speculation on my part though.

[highdownforce]

The biggest problem with Cosworth seams to be not its engine quality (that for all reasons could be understandably lower) but its ability to attract sponsors for the teams that use it.

[gm914]

Will Virgin's recent tie-up with McLaren give them a foot iside the door to acquire Mercedes engines in the near future?
Or come 2014 (if they're still around) McLarens bespoke eengine?
If so it only leaves HRT- whose current owners Thesan will sell the entry to Volkswagen Group for the 2014 season (assuming, again, that HRT are still around).
So that's it for Cosworth it seems.
I wonder if they'll even bother spending money on developing a V6. Not much point if there are no buyers.
Future= bleak.

Edited by gm914, 04 July 2011 - 20:49.

[Baddoer]

Well, looks like McLaren integration is the only chance for Cossie

[engel]

Cosworth had said they needed at least 4 teams to be able to supply at the prices the FIA asked so ... IMO their prospects aren't looking so good.

[1george]

Another chance for Cosworth is provide to a lower category in the future. A full-Cosworth powered F2 or GP2 is not a bad choice.

[midgrid]

What are the chances of collaborating with McLaren when/if the team's Mercedes contract runs out to produce a McLaren-badged/funded, Cosworth-built unit that could then also be supplied to Virgin? Like the Mercedes-Ilmor tie-up almost twenty years ago.

[gm914]

What are the chances of collaborating with McLaren when/if the team's Mercedes contract runs out to produce a McLaren-badged/funded, Cosworth-built unit that could then also be supplied to Virgin? Like the Mercedes-Ilmor tie-up almost twenty years ago.

I would welcome this!

[OoxLox]

I hope they survive somehow, if only for nostalgia reasons. With customers jumping ship and an expensive 2014 development program to fund....

[porscheman]

I think Cosworth's wisest path would be to concentrate fully on developing an engine to meet the 2014 specs. Perhaps having manufacturer(s) badge it also. It would be a shame to see this proud marque disappear from the top-flight again.

[TennisUK]

Martin Whitmarsh mentioned on a Motorsport magazine podcast a few months back that Mclaren had no ambitions to make an F1 engine since it would make little sense for a niche road car manufacturer like Mclaren Cars to fund such a project. I'd be interested to hear him debate that with Dany Bahar...

I suspect Cosworth's involvment is doomed judging by Adam Parr today:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/92853

...it is a partnership between us and an independent engine maker as well as a car maker, and that is very important.

"We did explore that with Cosworth – could we bring a car maker into the partnership? Unfortunately we were not able to do that. From that minute onwards, it is Cosworth who said that we cannot develop an engine for 2013, and I can understand that because it is a huge investment.

.. which gives us an insight into the current state of play at Cosworth.

Edited by TennisUK, 04 July 2011 - 22:24.

[HP]

What are the chances of collaborating with McLaren when/if the team's Mercedes contract runs out to produce a McLaren-badged/funded, Cosworth-built unit that could then also be supplied to Virgin? Like the Mercedes-Ilmor tie-up almost twenty years ago.

Might happen, but I won't be surprised if McLaren uses engines from big car manufacturers. At least until McLaren is sure to have an engine that is as competitive as the others. If you look back at F1 history, even McLaren was a midfield car when not having an engine that was competitive.

For that collaboration to be fruitful, the engine would need to be stuck into a Mclaren however. McLaren would give enough direction of what they need and pressure to perform.

[pingu666]

theyll be out i guess, unless they can get a manufactorer to fund them

[gm914]

.. which gives us an insight into the current state of play at Cosworth.

Yep.
Could it be that Cosworth have been planning to pull the plug for a while, and have quietly told their customers to look elsewhere for 2012-13?
Where are you now, Mosely?

[Talisman]

Surely the biggest problem is that Cosworth is unwilling/unable to fund development of an entirely new line of V6 1.6 litre turbos? Cosworth were always honest about doing things on the cheap and what could be cheaper than adapting a Ford funded V8 2.4 litre for the current regulations? I always thought that once the engine regs changed Cosworth would have to sell their services to a maker with bottomless pockets or pull out of the sport, and it looks like they are going for the latter.

[intothepits]

Hate to sound nasty to Cosworth... But they've not exactly made themselves look good in F1 in the last two years have they?

The 2010 Williams car powered by the Cosworth engine was alright, but really average, it questions most people thinking it's down to the engine when a team like that get mediocre results.... Of course, that team has it's own issues and you can't really blame the engine....

Yet... Since their entrance to F1 back in 2010 you can't exactly say their engines have looked impressive. Should they just leave or what?

Edited by intothepits, 05 July 2011 - 00:59.

[MonzaF1]

Given that Red Bull recently said they were interested in building their own engines and the company involved a well known Austrian drive train company called AVL.

Perhaps if Cosworth are abandoned under the current formula, the new v6 regulations and their f1 experience will interest Mateschitz and connect with them to AVL.

I think its a great idea of Red Bull will become Red Bull - Red Bull v6 cars especially that they have proven themselves to be the best in f1 resoundly beating Mclaren and Ferrari in a way not witnessed since the Williams great days [sigh!].

The risk is that it will be a great unknown and is likely to stop their winning for a time. But I dont think that Vettel is one for any experimenting and unless they want to lose him to McLaren [swap with Hamilton?] it will be some time before a Red Bull engine appears.

[MonzaF1]

Hate to sound nasty to Cosworth... But they've not exactly made themselves look good in F1 in the last two years have they?

The 2010 Williams car powered by the Cosworth engine was alright, but really average, it questions most people thinking it's down to the engine when a team like that get mediocre results.... Of course, that team has it's own issues and you can't really blame the engine....

Yet... Since their entrance to F1 back in 2010 you can't exactly say their engines have looked impressive. Should they just leave or what?

Isnt that what Williams has said he wants to discover? WGP Engineering dont have any idea exactly how bad or good their car is so contract with Renault and they will quickly find out.

[pingu666]

williams where meh with the toyota engine too...

its harder to impress, or make a negative impact either way with these near spec engines anyways :\

[TheBunk]

Hate to sound nasty to Cosworth... But they've not exactly made themselves look good in F1 in the last two years have they?

The 2010 Williams car powered by the Cosworth engine was alright, but really average, it questions most people thinking it's down to the engine when a team like that get mediocre results.... Of course, that team has it's own issues and you can't really blame the engine....

Yet... Since their entrance to F1 back in 2010 you can't exactly say their engines have looked impressive. Should they just leave or what?

Thing is...they had plenty time to develop the engine until they started actually racing it. Then found out what needed improvement but hey..the engine freeze kicked in.

[V8 Fireworks]

Following on from the 2010 Cosworth thread.

The two most competitive teams running the engines have jumped ship, leaving only HRT and Virgin on their own at the back.

There's nothing to suggest the Cosworths are more expensive than any other engine, so there's nothing to suggest either Virgin or HRT following suit.

But how few teams can Cosworth supply before it becomes too expensive to participate?

It would nice if Cosworth could lure a Lotus or such to help brand their engines.

Perhaps McLaren could be interested in purchasing Cosworth as a general strengthening measure for their brand, and as a source of F1 engine expertise? Would be better than starting from scratch. You could then have Cosworth editions of their supercars which would be nice touch.

[Petroltorque]

The change of emgine formula will create supply problems. Mercedes have stated that they only have capacity to supply 3 teams and no team will spend €150 million developping its own engine.
Williams switch to Renault will only confirm how awful their cars are and unless Coughlan gets his hands on RBR blueprints I don't see anything changing.
As for Cosworth they are lacking innovation. They should be offering bespoke KERS with their units.
For them to develop a 1.6 V6 they need a manufacturer partner.
Teams could be facing an engine shortage. The P.U.R.E engine will neither be reliable or competitive.
That only leaves Honda. VW have no intention of entering F1 as stated in their Le Mans press release.

[V8 Fireworks]

The change of emgine formula will create supply problems. Mercedes have stated that they only have capacity to supply 3 teams and no team will spend €150 million developping its own engine.
Williams switch to Renault will only confirm how awful their cars are and unless Coughlan gets his hands on RBR blueprints I don't see anything changing.
As for Cosworth they are lacking innovation. They should be offering bespoke KERS with their units.
For them to develop a 1.6 V6 they need a manufacturer partner.
Teams could be facing an engine shortage. The P.U.R.E engine will neither be reliable or competitive.
That only leaves Honda. VW have no intention of entering F1 as stated in their Le Mans press release.

Why not scrap the engine format altogether and go the IRL one then?

The only reason it is so expensive as the FIA has based it on engines being prepared to F1 standards of performance per capacity/fuel flow. Why not lower the standards if the makers don't want to spend so much anymore?

Yet the IRL ones do not exceed $900k per car lease, have attracted three suppliers and the average punter at Toronto probably could not care less about the "bloated" extra 600 cc or lack of KERS compared to the fancy F1 engines as long as it puts out 750+hp and sounds good!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 05 July 2011 - 05:23.

[FPV GTHO]

Werent the IRL engine regs designed with compatibility to LMP in mind? Might not have been that stupid an idea, even if you simply take their formula and apply the more powerful ERS as that seems to be the number 1 sticking point between the FiA and teams.

[lustigson]

After Virgin's deal with McLaren as well as Williams' Renault announcement, yesterday, this was exactly my thought: Cosworth won't remain in Formula One for much longer. Sad. The McLaren link-up is one thing that I would very much like to see, though.

However, McLaren Group already have engine development capacity in house. McLaren developed their own 3.8 litre V8, albeit "with help from Ricardo with technology acquired from Menard" and "based on the Nissan VRH35 racing engine" (according to Wikipedia). I wonder whether that will throw a spanner in the works for the alleged McLaren-Cosworth cooperation.

[jee]

williams where meh with the toyota engine too...

Toyota had the weakest engine on the grid at that time. Just look at both's aero settings at Monza and compare it to the other teams.

[Diablobb81]

What future?

[Jedi_F1]

There's a missing team on the grid .. the mistery of that 13th team for 2013 .. which could be propelled by Cosworth engine..

[Stormsky68]

In the big scheme of things, F1 is small potatoes for Cosworth turnover

[Powersteer]

The only reason it is so expensive as the FIA has based it on engines being prepared to F1 standards of performance per capacity/fuel flow. Why not lower the standards if the makers don't want to spend so much anymore?

Oh they do want to spend and create a Formula One wall for the untouchable elite groups but the FIA is trying to foil their plans.

[Petroltorque]

I'm afraid Cosworth has been made a scapegoat for Williams' woes. It just buys their share price some respite. Saying Renault will give them a clear performance benchmark is pure spin.
There are certain questions regards Genii Capital's engine supply. In addition it will be interesting to see the comparison of Team Lotus against Hispania now that thery are improving their infrastructure. KERS and fuel consumption are probably the engine's sole weaknesses.
I'm certain that given reasonable investment Cosworth will produce a competitive V6 turbo. If Cosworth could convince the Billionaire Russian Backers of Marussia and Genii they may yet stay in the game.

[DrProzac]

I'm afraid Cosworth has been made a scapegoat for Williams' woes. It just buys their share price some respite. Saying Renault will give them a clear performance benchmark is pure spin.

I have a similar feeling to be honest.

Some of the problems with Cosworth engines weren't actually Cosworth's fault. Reliability issues for Virgin and Lotus were mostly caused by faulty hydraulics and gearbox problems, but still Cosworth was blamed.

I hope they survive somehow, if only for nostalgia reasons. With customers jumping ship and an expensive 2014 development program to fund....

Same here. I think that Cosworth involvement in F1 is a good thing, but it looks like it won't last.

Another chance for Cosworth is provide to a lower category in the future. A full-Cosworth powered F2 or GP2 is not a bad choice.

Well, that's a good idea, though hopefully they will manage to stay involved in F1.

[Petroltorque]

I would not write Cosworth off yet. They had comitted to the i4 turbo when the rules were changed. They are a versatile engine builder and will build a competitive engine given reasonable investment. I don't see eiher Virgin or Hispania changing engine supply before 2014 simply on cost. Ferrari may offer a competitive engine but it comes with a very expensive transmission and KERs package. The same can be said of Mercedes.
Patrick Head staed that their Renault switch was in the hope of convincing Reggie to give them works support. Williams need to get their chassis tech up to spec first. At least Coughlan is likely to provide a step in the right direction.

[OoxLox]

SFW gave Cossie a nice bye-bye quote in the PC today, though it was drowned out by all the focus on EBDs and such like. He basically pointed out that they were good engines and that Williams had never had one fail on them. Coming from Sir Frank, that means a lot as you just know he's not the type to feed you a line of BS. The new teams had all sorts of problems that had nothing to do with the basic quality of the engine, so let's hope Cosworth can stick with it and live up to its illustrious history and maybe make some more recent F1 converts take a look at what Costin and Duckworth built from scratch all those years ago and how many legends of F1 have taken the chequered flag to the glorious sound of a screaming Cosworth lump!

[pingualoty]

After Virgin's deal with McLaren as well as Williams' Renault announcement, yesterday, this was exactly my thought: Cosworth won't remain in Formula One for much longer. Sad. The McLaren link-up is one thing that I would very much like to see, though.

However, McLaren Group already have engine development capacity in house. McLaren developed their own 3.8 litre V8, albeit "with help from Ricardo with technology acquired from Menard" and "based on the Nissan VRH35 racing engine" (according to Wikipedia). I wonder whether that will throw a spanner in the works for the alleged McLaren-Cosworth cooperation.

Well the last time there was a Mclaren-Cosworth a beautiful child was born, albeit not the fastest.

http://www.f1fanatic...rth-mp4-8-1993/

[lustigson]

Well the last time there was a Mclaren-Cosworth a beautiful child was born, albeit not the fastest.

http://www.f1fanatic...rth-mp4-8-1993/

You mean 'not the fastest', I reckon, since Ayrton Senna dragged that car to no less than 5 Grand Prix victories and 2nd in the WDC to one A.M.P. Prost in a fully active Williams-Renault. That's quite an achievement for the then-customer team!