140 replies to this topic

[apoka]

I am not sure whether it was discussed already, but apparently Alonso got an offer from Red Bull for 2009 (several sources).

[prty]

I am not sure whether it was discussed already, but apparently Alonso got an offer from Red Bull for 2009 (several sources).

Alonso himself said it in the Canada build up (he said in 2008 though):

http://www.lasexta.c...golf_car/438813

Edited by prty, 04 July 2011 - 14:24.

[SCUDmissile]

interesting that Surtees names Alonso as the man of this era.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=fvvDKz4WWU4

[DrewishPrince]

interesting that Surtees names Alonso as the man of this era.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=fvvDKz4WWU4

Alonso definitely stands out as THE driver of the post-Schumacher era (never minding Schumacher's return as it's just a hobby now). Taking all factors into account, noone of his peers so far came close overall.
He won with 3 teams (sometimes, as in Japan 2008 with very indifferent cars), with different tyres in very different eras (just compare the 2005 no-tyre-change-with-refueling rules with today's ones), always showinig great speed and consistency. Even his worst season, 2007, was in fact a great display of driving in a hostile environment against rivals in faster cars.

Edited by DrewishPrince, 06 July 2011 - 08:08.

[F1matt]

At first glance it sounds crazy that Alonso would be crazy to turn Red Bull down for 2009, but it depends on when he agreed or signed to Ferrari, for the entire 2008 season it was the worst kept secret that Alonso and Santander were going to Ferrari, it was just a case of working out a compensation package for Kimi Raikkonen, so if he agreed to join them in the early part of the year before we really seen the Adrian Newey effect take charge on the team, one thing is for sure when he spends every GP looking at the back of a Red Bull rear wing he must rue the decision to join the prancing horse!

[SpeedRacer`]

At first glance it sounds crazy that Alonso would be crazy to turn Red Bull down for 2009, but it depends on when he agreed or signed to Ferrari, for the entire 2008 season it was the worst kept secret that Alonso and Santander were going to Ferrari, it was just a case of working out a compensation package for Kimi Raikkonen, so if he agreed to join them in the early part of the year before we really seen the Adrian Newey effect take charge on the team, one thing is for sure when he spends every GP looking at the back of a Red Bull rear wing he must rue the decision to join the prancing horse!

I don't think he does.

He's already won 2 world championships. I honestly think he's happier being in a good Ferrari than a very good Red Bull.

[BigCHrome]

Alonso definitely stands out as THE driver of the post-Schumacher era (never minding Schumacher's return as it's just a hobby now). Taking all factors into account, noone of his peers so far came close overall.
He won with 3 teams (sometimes, as in Japan 2008 with very indifferent cars), with different tyres in very different eras (just compare the 2005 no-tyre-change-with-refueling rules with today's ones), always showinig great speed and consistency. Even his worst season, 2007, was in fact a great display of driving in a hostile environment against rivals in faster cars.

[Sausage]

Well hindsight is just that, but it's pretty easy to know he was going to Ferrari anyway. At that time RB wasn't amazing yet. Also it's doubtfull RB would've wanted him to sign for only a year, you just dont do that with great drivers. You know you want to build up with them and for the salary part it's easier to commit the large sum required for a few years also. Ferrari was in every way a better bet at the time, and considering his contract is up to 2016 now it might still have been.

Besides that Vettel was an up and coming RB-boy, he might've accidentily bought into the same situation as at McLaren again, I'm sure he was keen to avoid being anything but the No.1 in his future team. In Ferrari you just have less chance of something like that happening.

[Zava]

wasn't he also offered a honda (later brawn gp) seat?

I've got my sources.

[ArtShelley]

I think he's quite fortunate that he didn't join Red Bull. Don't think he would have much enjoyed being beaten by Seb.

[slmk]

Alonso definitely stands out as THE driver of the post-Schumacher era (never minding Schumacher's return as it's just a hobby now). Taking all factors into account, noone of his peers so far came close overall.
He won with 3 teams (sometimes, as in Japan 2008 with very indifferent cars), with different tyres in very different eras (just compare the 2005 no-tyre-change-with-refueling rules with today's ones), always showinig great speed and consistency. Even his worst season, 2007, was in fact a great display of driving in a hostile environment against rivals in faster cars.

The honor will go to Vettel after this season. Back-to-back WDC, younger than Alonso and more wins/poles than Alonso (at similar ages). There's no way it isn't Vettel.

And Alonso gets docked a couple points with his involvement in Spygate and Crashgate.

Edited by slmk, 06 July 2011 - 15:31.

[Totza]

I think he's quite fortunate that he didn't join Red Bull. Don't think he would have much enjoyed being beaten by Seb.

How do you know he would of beaten Alonso? posts like this just make you look stupid

[BRK]

I think he's quite fortunate that he didn't join Red Bull. Don't think he would have much enjoyed being beaten by Seb.

But the drama, think of all the off-track drama!

[SK99]

If Alonso had gone to RBR, it'd have been interesting to see who would have had the Ferrari drive this and last year - they surely wouldn't have kept Raikkonen still considering what went on, so would they have got Button or Webber or ...?

Edited by SK99, 06 July 2011 - 15:49.

[tifosiMac]

The honor will go to Vettel after this season. Back-to-back WDC, younger than Alonso and more wins/poles than Alonso (at similar ages). There's no way it isn't Vettel.

I just wish more of his victories had involved exciting racing rather than driving off into the distance to the chequered flag. The fact the television companies are focussing on drivers like Button, Hamilton and Alonso in their race coverage suggests there is nothing exciting about watching a Red Bull taking corner after corner. Theres no doubt he's a good driver but I hope sooner rather than later he is faced with a car that is fighting for position rather than his rivals desparately trying to compensate for the performance disadvantage with their own cars. Hopefully Silverstone will see the pack pulled together abit tighter and we can see these guys racing closely.

[SCUDmissile]

If Alonso had gone to RBR, it'd have been interesting to see who would have had the Ferrari drive this and last year - they surely wouldn't have kept Raikkonen still considering what went on, so would they have got Button or Webber or ...?

Probably Vettel, or Kubica, or even possibly Rossi. probably, Kubica would have moved to Ferrari instead of Renault, or Vettel would be swapping positions with Alonso.

[SK99]

Probably Vettel, or Kubica, or even possibly Rossi. probably, Kubica would have moved to Ferrari instead of Renault, or Vettel would be swapping positions with Alonso.

Ah yes Kubica, I think that's the man, I forgot he moved to Renault for 2010 and not earlier

[glasgowman]

Vettel is a boring world champion always will be no matter how many WDC's he wins, he has had the out and out best car for the last 2 years only if he goes to a lesser team and drags it to the front ala Schumacher with Ferrari and Alonso with Renault will my opinion change of him.

[Clatter]

Vettel is a boring world champion always will be no matter how many WDC's he wins, he has had the out and out best car for the last 2 years only if he goes to a lesser team and drags it to the front ala Schumacher with Ferrari and Alonso with Renault will my opinion change of him.

Of course he never dragged the STR to the front, did he!.

[Unbiased]

Vettel is a boring world champion always will be no matter how many WDC's he wins, he has had the out and out best car for the last 2 years only if he goes to a lesser team and drags it to the front ala Schumacher with Ferrari and Alonso with Renault will my opinion change of him.

Oh, look, it's that same old arguments again that have been totally dismissed. Yes Monza 2008 in a TR (pure skill no matter what the antis say, most F1 experts, drivers, ex drivers, critics, team bosses, engineers agree) and his other achievements in that car.

The Mclaren has been faster in 3 races this season, Vettel won 2 of those and last season his car was pretty much the most unreliable car in the field losing at least 3 times more points through that than the next championship contender.

And the Renault in 2005 and first part of 2006 (until parts were banned on it) was the best car to be in to win the championship. So has Fangio, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Stewart, Schumacher, Hamilton won their championships...by being in the best car that season...the horror, how dare they be in the best car, that's cheating... So I guess Alonso and all champions in F1 are also boring champions who haven't proven anything.

Gone are your arguments. It is the same for every champion.

On topic: Alonso made very unwise decisions because he followed his heart more than his head. He was offered a seat at Brawn GP and RBR and he declined both. In hinsight yes, but that goes for everything. From a sporting point of view (so leave out the nostalgia thing of driving for Ferrari) he has wasted 3 seasons of his career by being in the wrong place at the wrong time by his own decisions. Even his most fanatical fan won't believe when he says he cares more for driving in the red car than winning a race/championship because that is now how real champions think.

[freya]

Of course he never dragged the STR to the front, did he!.

He did. Fisichella did too. He was probably the best driver of the century since he took FI to the front. Oh wait, that's not how logic works...

Edited by freya, 06 July 2011 - 17:24.

[DrewishPrince]

Probably Vettel, or Kubica, or even possibly Rossi. probably, Kubica would have moved to Ferrari instead of Renault, or Vettel would be swapping positions with Alonso.

Yes, Ferrari had no reason to keep Kimi beyond 2009 (2008, in fact but their 2009 car was not very good so it doesn't matter) and Kubica would have been a very good solution.
Vettel is also a very good solution but he's been commited to Red Bull....and who could say he was wrong?

Edited by DrewishPrince, 06 July 2011 - 17:26.

[Clatter]

Oh, look, it's that same old arguments again that have been totally dismissed. Yes Monza 2008 in a TR (pure skill no matter what the antis say, most F1 experts, drivers, ex drivers, critics, team bosses, engineers agree) and his other achievements in that car.

The Mclaren has been faster in 3 races this season, Vettel won 2 of those and last season his car was pretty much the most unreliable car in the field losing at least 3 times more points through that than the next championship contender.

And the Renault in 2005 and first part of 2006 (until parts were banned on it) was the best car to be in to win the championship. So has Fangio, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Stewart, Schumacher, Hamilton won their championships...by being in the best car that season...the horror, how dare they be in the best car, that's cheating... So I guess Alonso and all champions in F1 are also boring champions who haven't proven anything.

Gone are your arguments. It is the same for every champion.

On topic: Alonso made very unwise decisions because he followed his heart more than his head. He was offered a seat at Brawn GP and RBR and he declined both. In hinsight yes, but that goes for everything. From a sporting point of view (so leave out the nostalgia thing of driving for Ferrari) he has wasted 3 seasons of his career by being in the wrong place at the wrong time by his own decisions. Even his most fanatical fan won't believe when he says he cares more for driving in the red car than winning a race/championship because that is now how real champions think.

Can't really blame him for turning that seat down though. No one, other than the incumbent drivers , would have wanted the drive at that stage.

[DrProzac]

At first glance it sounds crazy that Alonso would be crazy to turn Red Bull down for 2009

For 2009? I don't think it was crazy - RBR wasn't better than Renault in 2008.

[ed24f1]

But would Red Bull have held Vettel back at Toro Rosso for 2009 if Alonso was coming? I don't know if they would have turfed Webber straight away, but anything's possible. Maybe Webber would have gone to Renault due to his Briatore links.

Yes, Ferrari had no reason to keep Kimi beyond 2009 (2008, in fact but their 2009 car was not very good so it doesn't matter) and Kubica would have been a very good solution.

I doubt Kubica had the sponsors to pay Raikkonen's contract off though, so it would have been Kimi and Massa again in 2010 in all likelihood. And of course due to Kubica's injury, he never would have got to drive for Ferrari anyway.

[Anssi]

Well, it's always easy to be smart afterwards. The positive thing about Alonso not going to Red Bull Racing is that now the team can say that they have made the car fast and not Alonso.

[DrewishPrince]

But would Red Bull have held Vettel back at Toro Rosso for 2009 if Alonso was coming? I don't know if they would have turfed Webber straight away, but anything's possible. Maybe Webber would have gone to Renault due to his Briatore links.



I doubt Kubica had the sponsors to pay Raikkonen's contract off though, so it would have been Kimi and Massa again in 2010 in all likelihood. And of course due to Kubica's injury, he never would have got to drive for Ferrari anyway.

Maybe the Ferrari contract would have kept him from rallying?

About Kimi's contract, it wasn't about Santander. Ferrari simply wanted him out and they would have found the way in any case.

[Anssi]

About Kimi's contract, it wasn't about Santander. Ferrari simply wanted him out and they would have found the way in any case.

That's rubbish. Who would have paid if not a Spanish company whose Spanish Chairman of the Board is a massive Fernando Alonso fan? Tell me, who else would have paid millions of euros just to cancel a contract of a F1 World Champion driver and to pay his salary for 2010?

Alonso wanted that seat, and he had a fan to buy it for him one year early than what was otherwise possible. Of course he was not going to go to RBR, when this **** was going on behind the scenes.

Yes, the team principal of Scuderia Ferrari wanted Kimi out, but it was only made possible by Santander to do it for 2010. Without them, Kimi would have continued normally with Ferrari in 2010. Kimi also thinks this is the most influential factor to it.

Edited by Anssi, 06 July 2011 - 17:44.

[Yolandy]

Vettel is a boring world champion always will be no matter how many WDC's he wins, he has had the out and out best car for the last 2 years only if he goes to a lesser team and drags it to the front ala Schumacher with Ferrari and Alonso with Renault will my opinion change of him.

lol what, Alonso not being boring? Let's being honest, at least Vettel is being childishly funny while Alonso totally a PR machine (though the two both great in driving)

And Schumacher/Alonso didn't "drag" a slow car. Even prior to 1996, Ferrari were always top 3 team, and Renault in 2003-2004 had a pretty solid car. In case you'll argue about 2008-2009, it was just the mclaren didn't work out for Alonso and he was waiting for a super fast red car to come.

[Unbiased]

Can't really blame him for turning that seat down though. No one, other than the incumbent drivers , would have wanted the drive at that stage.

I think in that situation, it would still have been a better gamble than Renault who was going nowhere.

[DrewishPrince]

That's rubbish. Who would have paid if not a Spanish company whose Spanish Chairman of the Board is a massive Fernando Alonso fan? Tell me, who else would have paid millions of euros just to cancel a contract of a F1 World Champion driver and to pay his salary for 2010?

Alonso wanted that seat, and he had a fan to buy it for him one year early than what was otherwise possible. Of course he was not going to go to RBR, when this **** was going on behind the scenes.

Yes, the team principal of Scuderia Ferrari wanted Kimi out, but it was only made possible by Santander to do it for 2010. Without them, Kimi would have continued normally with Ferrari in 2010. Kimi also thinks this is the most influential factor to it.

I don't agree. I think that Ferrari became disappointed with Kimi already in 2007, despite the title (face it, it was more down to sheer luck than anything else) and when he failed to redempt himself in 2008, no contract could have saved his seat. That Alonso was available in the way he was was a nice coincidence but Kimi was out for 2010 in any case.

[Clatter]

I think in that situation, it would still have been a better gamble than Renault who was going nowhere.

Not really. At Renault he had a boss who he knew would give him the full #1 status that he wanted. Brawn, as a car was a complete unknown, and having to retrofit an engine that it was never designed for. No one expected it to be anything, but bringing up the rear.

[olliek88]

Of course he never dragged the STR to the front, did he!.

Some people have a short memory don't they, like him or loathe him, that Monza win will go down in history as a moment when a great driver announced himself, i'm not Sebs biggest fan but this year he has won me over, i think he has pretty much maximised that Red Bull, he been all but faultless, except for his little slip in tricky conditions under pressure in canada, even great drivers make mistakes under pressure though, think shuey in Adelaide '94.

[Anssi]

I don't agree. I think that Ferrari became disappointed with Kimi already in 2007, despite the title (face it, it was more down to sheer luck than anything else) and when he failed to redempt himself in 2008, no contract could have saved his seat. That Alonso was available in the way he was was a nice coincidence but Kimi was out for 2010 in any case.

Who would have paid for it? Do you think Ferrari would have wanted to create a situation in which Kimi could sue them for breach of contract? I don't hold them to high value but I don't think they are that stupid. They smeared Kimi exactly because they needed his agreement to cancel the contract. That's what the insulting public statements by Domenicali and Montezemolo were all about.

Even Alonso could be better off not have it done like it was done. His reputation has also been damaged. For all parties concerned, it would have been better to not cancel any contracts and just do it cleanly with none of the bad PR that happened with the way it was done.

Edited by Anssi, 06 July 2011 - 18:01.

[TRF]

Of course he never dragged the STR to the front, did he!.

Not week in week out no, just a one off, I'm not saying it wasn't impressive but the conditions kind of turned that race on it's head, plus they started behind a safety car, without that he may of been passed in to the 1st corner, although the rain did show his wet weather skill, he didn't have the pressure of the WDC like FM and LH. His not to highly rated team mate Bourdais qualified 4th that weekend as well, and if he hadn't of stalled at the start he might well of finished well into the points. plus STR was often regarded as a better car than the RB that year also.

Edited by TRF, 06 July 2011 - 18:15.

[Anssi]

All in all, it's very nice that Alonso didn't go to RBR. He would have claimed credit for the improved form of the team, just like he does in every team he goes to. Ferrari have placed themselves in a situation in which the car and the team is always at fault, not Alonso. Nice way of painting themselves in a corner...

Edited by Anssi, 06 July 2011 - 17:59.

[DrewishPrince]

Who would have paid for it? Do you think Ferrari would have wanted to create a situation in which Kimi could sue them for breach of contract? I don't hold them to high value but I don't think they are that stupid. They smeared Kimi exactly because they needed his agreement to cancel the contract. That's what the insulting public statements by Domenicali and Montezemolo were all about.

Philip Morris is one of the candidates.

Smearing and insulting public statements by Domenicali and di Montezemolo?!? I am sorry but I don't remember a single one. Any sources, links?

Edited by DrewishPrince, 06 July 2011 - 18:03.

[DrewishPrince]

All in all, it's very nice that Alonso didn't go to RBR. He would have claimed credit for the improved form of the team, just like he does in every team he goes to. Ferrari have placed themselves in a situation in which the car and the team is always at fault, not Alonso. Nice way of painting themselves in a corner...

You cannot deny that the 2009-2011 Ferrari cars are way lesser than the 2006-2008 ones.

[SCUDmissile]

all i heard was dom say that he did not want to say anything bad about Kimi, because he won them a WDC, and Dom was very nice to him.

i liked Kimi, and i loved his comments after brazil 07, and i was gutted with his performances in 08. but to be honest, he would have been on his way out in 2011 then, instead of 2010, whcih was the initial plan.

it was a shame, but 2008 did it for him.

[DrewishPrince]

all i heard was dom say that he did not want to say anything bad about Kimi, because he won them a WDC, and Dom was very nice to him.

i liked Kimi, and i loved his comments after brazil 07, and i was gutted with his performances in 08. but to be honest, he would have been on his way out in 2011 then, instead of 2010, whcih was the initial plan.

it was a shame, but 2008 did it for him.

Exactly. I don't remember a single bad word about Kimi from Ferrari.
They were completely fair to him.

[Anssi]

Alonso could have ended up getting badly beaten by Vettel had Vettel been his team-mate at RBR. He could beat Webber with not much trouble, but I'm not sure of Vettel.

[Clatter]

Exactly. I don't remember a single bad word about Kimi from Ferrari.
They were completely fair to him.

I don't think that's entirely true.

[faaaz]

Alonso could have ended up getting badly beaten by Vettel had Vettel been his team-mate at RBR. He could beat Webber with not much trouble, but I'm not sure of Vettel.

He almost beat Vettel in an inferior Ferrari last year, would've if it wasnt for stupid strategy. I think Alonso and Hamilton are the best drivers on the grid, with Vettel closely behind.

[DrewishPrince]

I don't think that's entirely true.

You probably refer to the final contract termination in 2009 but as a Ferrari fan, I can only feel it came a year or two too late.
Ferrari paid Kimi all the money they owned him, they provided him with WC cars, something McLaren was unable to do, and they made him a World Champion. So yes, I think Ferrari was 100% fair and also lucky to be able to snatch a driver of Alonso's calibre afterwards.

[Clatter]

You probably refer to the final contract termination in 2009 but as a Ferrari fan, I can only feel it came a year or two too late.
Ferrari paid Kimi all the money they owned him, they provided him with WC cars, something McLaren was unable to do, and they made him a World Champion. So yes, I think Ferrari was 100% fair and also lucky to be able to snatch a driver of Alonso's calibre afterwards.

They extended his contract in 2008. They may have paid him off, but I don't view that as being fair at all.

[DrewishPrince]

They extended his contract in 2008. They may have paid him off, but I don't view that as being fair at all.

Yes, I remember that extension, I was really surprised. Ferrari must have been in real shambles back then....sadly I'm not sure it's much better now.

[Starish]

all i heard was dom say that he did not want to say anything bad about Kimi, because he won them a WDC, and Dom was very nice to him.

i liked Kimi, and i loved his comments after brazil 07, and i was gutted with his performances in 08. but to be honest, he would have been on his way out in 2011 then, instead of 2010, whcih was the initial plan.

it was a shame, but 2008 did it for him.

2010 did it for Massa but he's still there fooling around in a ferrari, Kimi's performances were way better compared to Massa's 2010 and 2011*, they Stabbed him by changing the suspension change and are now acting like they owe Massa something by not terminating his contract like they did to Kimi.

[DrewishPrince]

2010 did it for Massa but he's still there fooling around in a ferrari, Kimi's performances were way better compared to Massa's 2010 and 2011*, they Stabbed him by changing the suspension change and are now acting like they owe Massa something by not terminating his contract like they did to Kimi.

Oh no, not again this suspension story! His results were the same with both suspensions.
However, my opinion is that Massa of 2010 was equally good as Massa of 2008. The differences were in cars and teammates.

And that is why it's good (for Ferrari) that Alonso did not sign for Red Bull .

Edited by DrewishPrince, 06 July 2011 - 18:43.

[SCUDmissile]

2010 did it for Massa but he's still there fooling around in a ferrari, Kimi's performances were way better compared to Massa's 2010 and 2011*, they Stabbed him by changing the suspension change and are now acting like they owe Massa something by not terminating his contract like they did to Kimi.

i dont think you can compare that, because the F2008 was a better car than the F10, so underperforming in 2008 was worse.

[glasgowman]

ok lets say you are racing driver its 2008 your looking for a new team you have two choices:-

A drinks manufacturer who is on the cusp of producing a great car designed by the best designer of his generation!

or

a team which is tied into the very history of formula 1, with the biggest budget and the chance to mold a team round you as it number 1



its a no brainer.