258 replies to this topic

[jeze]

Only Michael Schumacher has so far won more prior to his 30th birthday - 33

Alonso now has 27 wins, and is only four more wins from tying Nigel Mansell to become the 4th most successful driver in the sport's history.

Considering he has never ever had a car that's clearly the fastest over a full season (McLaren faster in '05 and Ferrari faster second half of '06), it has to be classified as really impressive.

If Ferrari gets order in their aero department soon, Senna's 41 may only be a couple of seasons away...

[ForzaGTR]

He is a great driver. This cannot be disputed. Although I don't like his personality, I have to give credit where credit is due. If Ferrari had not dropped the ball early on in the season he would be a title contender no doubt.

Edited by Olly F1, 10 July 2011 - 15:02.

[velgajski1]

Only Michael Schumacher has so far won more prior to his 30th birthday - 33

Alonso now has 27 wins, and is only four more wins from tying Nigel Mansell to become the 4th most successful driver in the sport's history.

Considering he has never ever had a car that's clearly the fastest over a full season (McLaren faster in '05 and Ferrari faster second half of '06), it has to be classified as really impressive.

If Ferrari gets order in their aero department soon, Senna's 41 may only be a couple of seasons away...

Not that I'm trying to demean this, but Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso will all overtake some of the historically great(er) drivers simply based on fact that now we have double GP count per season than drivers had before. Not to even mention that career points is now practically meaningless stat.

If F1 continues this way, new generation will drive 25-30 or more GPs per season, and will accordingly look greater than this generation (and much better than 'classic' generation) in these statistics.

However, this stat is pretty relevant for last 30 years or so, and its a really great achievement.

Edited by velgajski1, 10 July 2011 - 15:13.

[Fastcake]

Well, to be fair, both Alonso and Schumacher have come in an era with more races a season than the past, so these comparisons are always somewhat pointless.

Not to take anything away from Alonso, he is a very good driver even if I can't stand him.

[topical]

Impressive statistic. His WDC chances this year are still next to nil, but if the Ferrari improvement is as genuine as it seems he could take another 4-5 wins this season to match Mansell. And if Ferrari do a half decent job over the next 4 years, he may well overtake Senna.

[Boxerevo]

Gratz.

Sure one of the greatest,in my list.

[zeph]

I agree the statistics give a warped view of reality, but he deserves to be up there, no doubt.

[FTATRWeSaluteYou]

Well done to Fernando, A class above all others its clear, along with Vettel. The two best, i hope we see some good battles to the end of the season.

Clean ones too.

[jeze]

Well, to be fair, both Alonso and Schumacher have come in an era with more races a season than the past, so these comparisons are always somewhat pointless.

Not to take anything away from Alonso, he is a very good driver even if I can't stand him.

From 1972 up until today ther has always been 15 to 18 races, so it's a relevant stat in those days.

[Lights]

Very impressive drive from him today. Not that this statistic says a lot.

[ImDDAA]

Agreed, Alonso is pure class - he can drag a car around a track by the scruff of the neck and produce amazing performances without over driving into mistakes (although he makes them too!). I'm hoping Hamilton can develop like Fernando a bit more and temper his driving - Alonso plays the long game brilliantly as well as the short.

[kosmos]

I don't know if he will catch Prost, but with 4+ years in F1, if Ferrari can produce good cars, he will pass Senna by the end of his career or maybe sooner.

[H2H]

Congratulations, there is no doubt that Alonso is a great driver.

[Bruce]

He is a great driver. This cannot be disputed. Although I don't like his personality, I have to give credit where credit is due. If Ferrari had not dropped the ball early on in the season he would be a title contender no doubt.

Gracious comment.

[johnmhinds]

I don't know if he will catch Prost, but with 4+ years in F1, if Ferrari can produce good cars, he will pass Senna by the end of his career or maybe sooner.

Alonso has already competed in more grand prix' than Senna did though.

A percentage of races entered to wins is a better gauge of a drivers talent than just pure wins anyway.

Edited by johnmhinds, 10 July 2011 - 15:50.

[Bruce]

I don't know if he will catch Prost, but with 4+ years in F1, if Ferrari can produce good cars, he will pass Senna by the end of his career or maybe sooner.

Prost retired at 39 - Alonso is, at present is just short of 30 - if he equals Prosts's career, than he needs to score 24 more victories. Now - one thing play into Alonso's hand -there are now 19 races per year - probably 20 soon. So he has (based on Prost's career span) the possibility of 200 more races from which he needs to add 24.... if he ever gets a dominant car ( and I'd think Ferrari will, eventually provide him with one) than Prost's record is in jeopardy.

Interestingly, Schumacher's Ferrari career only really took off when he was 31- he scored 48 wins between 2000 and 2004.... now - I'm not silly enough to suggest that Ferrari will have a similar renaissance, but at this point - Alonso is'nt that far behind where Schumacher was at his age - about 7 races wins - curse those interim years at reanult!!!

[Bruce]

Alonso has already competed in more grand prix' than Senna did though.

A percentage of races entered to wins is a better gauge of a drivers talent than just pure wins anyway.

good point. - You have to wonder what Fangio's record would have been at 20 races per year.....

[differential]

Prost retired at 39 - Alonso is, at present is just short of 30 - if he equals Prosts's career, than he needs to score 24 more victories. Now - one thing play into Alonso's hand -there are now 19 races per year - probably 20 soon. So he has (based on Prost's career span) the possibility of 200 more races from which he needs to add 24.... if he ever gets a dominant car ( and I'd think Ferrari will, eventually provide him with one) than Prost's record is in jeopardy.

Interestingly, Schumacher's Ferrari career only really took off when he was 31- he scored 48 wins between 2000 and 2004.... now - I'm not silly enough to suggest that Ferrari will have a similar renaissance, but at this point - Alonso is'nt that far behind where Schumacher was at his age - about 7 races wins - curse those interim years at reanult!!!

yeah but the competition is fierce now. I just don't see ferrari having the domination with alonso that they did with schu.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Reliability has also sky-rocketed in the last few years, it's so much rarer to see probable wins end in retirement.

[Bruce]

yeah but the competition is fierce now. I just don't see ferrari having the domination with alonso that they did with schu.

I agree....

[ImDDAA]

Reliability has also sky-rocketed in the last few years, it's so much rarer to see probable wins end in retirement.

Yup, it's almost a non issue now. People complain about that which confuses me, F1 is a sport of progression and I think it's fantastic that it's managed to move away from big failures every race.

[johnmhinds]

good point. - You have to wonder what Fangio's record would have been at 20 races per year.....

Well assuming he could have kept winning at the same rate Fangio would have a record pretty close to Schumacher's.

[Bruce]

....and one more thing to consider - Jaun Fangio started his F1 career at the age of 38 in 1951 when there were 7 races per year - one in which F1 cars didn't participate - the Indy 500........ records DO mean something, but I think that even Michael Schumacher has conceded that Juan Manuel Fangio is his superior...

[aray]

Alonso has already competed in more grand prix' than Senna did though.

A percentage of races entered to wins is a better gauge of a drivers talent than just pure wins anyway.

true...but that depends on kind of car one get...senna has 3 season of totally crappy car and one season a decent one before he went to macca...alonso has one season with minardi,2 season with renault with a mid-field car occasionally winnable during 2003,2004(like senna in lotus period),then again 2 season of hardly winnable car in renault in 2008 & 2009...and he had to compete with those car in more races per season than senna did...don't think i am comparing him to senna...just showing the facts that hindered his winning percentage...
hamilton and vettel perhaps will have more no. of wins than senna at 30,when they turn 30...may be they will cross senna's total victory tally by then(particularly vettel)...

Edited by aray, 10 July 2011 - 16:08.

[EdwardCullen]

Only Michael Schumacher has so far won more prior to his 30th birthday - 33

Alonso now has 27 wins, and is only four more wins from tying Nigel Mansell to become the 4th most successful driver in the sport's history.

Considering he has never ever had a car that's clearly the fastest over a full season (McLaren faster in '05 and Ferrari faster second half of '06), it has to be classified as really impressive.

If Ferrari gets order in their aero department soon, Senna's 41 may only be a couple of seasons away...

i stopped reading there

[Bruce]

Ultimately, though - you can only consider a driver's career at the end- Alonso could go on to win 12 races a year for the next 8 years- or Hamilton could never win one again (not that I think either of these have a snowball's chance of happening) but it would certainly change our perception....

[Risil]

....and one more thing to consider - Jaun Fangio started his F1 career at the age of 38 in 1951 when there were 7 races per year - one in which F1 cars didn't participate - the Indy 500........ records DO mean something, but I think that even Michael Schumacher has conceded that Juan Manuel Fangio is his superior...

On the other hand, if we instead talked about total races won, not simply "World Championship events" (dubious concept, esp in the '50s), a lot of the modern drivers' stats would look quite paltry.

Good for Alonso though. He's been on or around the top of the podium for 8 years now. And he's been reliably one of the quickest drivers on the track more or less the whole time.

Strange, considering how many people thought he was somewhat fortuitous to come out of 2005-2006 with two world drivers' championships, that he should have picked up precisely zero since. Who would've predicted that...

Edited by Risil, 10 July 2011 - 16:18.

[marcoferrari]

Fernando is a very good driver without a doubt, but I am not really a fan of his personality... But to see Ferrari win after a while and Alguersuari making his third point finish in a row was a nice birthday present for me...

Edited by marcoferrari, 10 July 2011 - 17:04.

[Bruce]

Fernando is a very good driver without a doubt, but I am not really a fan of his personality... But to see Ferrari win after a while and Alguersuari making his third point finish in a row was a nice birthday present for me...

Happy Birthday!

[marcoferrari]

Happy Birthday!

It s tomorrow, the Silverstone race was this year a one day earlier... And thank you!

[tommi34]

Considering he has never ever had a car that's clearly the fastest over a full season (McLaren faster in '05 and Ferrari faster second half of '06), it has to be classified as really impressive.

Eh, yeah he hasn't had "clearly the fastest car" for a full season, but what does that matter when he has got so many wins because of drivers having technical problems in front of him?

[DrewishPrince]

Eh, yeah he hasn't had "clearly the fastest car" for a full season, but what does that matter when he has got so many wins because of drivers having technical problems in front of him?

Did it really happen? I counted only a few occasions, no more than for any other driver.

[Atreiu]

Alonso has already competed in more grand prix' than Senna did though.

A percentage of races entered to wins is a better gauge of a drivers talent than just pure wins anyway.

166 races, 27 wins, 16%.
That's around Mansell's ballpark.
He's have to win the next 20 races to rise to Prost's and Sena's 25%.

Edited by Atreiu, 10 July 2011 - 21:40.

[skinnyman]

i stopped reading there

Utter BS, he had the overall best car in '05, '06 and '07

Fun fact: Vettel has 6 wins and 3 second places in 9 races this season, Alonso had exactly the same after 9 races in 2006

MS was 25 points behind at that point (~13 differences between win and 2nd place), Alonso is now 92 points behind (also ~13 differences between 1st and 2nd).

[DrewishPrince]

Utter BS, he had the overall best car in '05, '06 and '07

Fun fact: Vettel has 6 wins and 3 second places in 9 races this season, Alonso had exactly the same after 9 races in 2006

MS was 25 points behind at that point (~13 differences between win and 2nd place), Alonso is now 92 points behind (also ~13 differences between 1st and 2nd).

Every of those seasons is debatable:
In 2005 Kimi was at fault for Imola (too aggressive over the kerbs despite warning) and Nürburgring (flatspotting mistake), therefore those 2 races account for 20 points won with lesser car. Besides, McLaren was ridiculously faster at most circuits.
In 2006, true, Alonso built up a big lead when he had a car advantage, overall I would say Renault and Ferrari were about equal.
In 2007 there is not a slightest doubt that Ferrari was a better car. Just take a look at Massa's results.

Edited by DrewishPrince, 10 July 2011 - 21:47.

[Jimisgod]

166 races, 27 wins, 16%.
That's around Mansell's ballpark.
He's have to win the next 20 races to rise to Prost's and Sena's 25%.

Long way to reach Jim Clark's 34%

[DrewishPrince]

Long way to reach Jim Clark's 34%

In his "first" career, Schumacher had 36%

[topical]

166 races, 27 wins, 16%.
That's around Mansell's ballpark.
He's have to win the next 20 races to rise to Prost's and Sena's 25%.

Didn't 9 of Mansell's wins, in other words 33% of his total tally, come in the 1992 season?
Which just shows how misleading his own statistics are. Drivers can be massively flattered or hindered by the car they have.

[Cesc]

One thing important about these stats is that Alonso have never driven a dominant car like Vettel has now or Schumacher had for long tim in the past. He has driven VEEERY good cars, but not dominant that secures victories unless you make an error.

[Viktor]

Reliability has also sky-rocketed in the last few years, it's so much rarer to see probable wins end in retirement.

You have to look at it from the other side also, possible wins due to retirement of competitors is also much rarer now then before when Fangio, Senna and Prost raced.

/Viktor

[Tsarwash]

Alonso is undoubtedly a great driver, but this statistic is pretty meaningless, when you consider they race 20 times a year now and they used to race 6 times a year once, in terms of world championship races. A percentage would be a better way of looking at it, and even then you would have to look at differences in quality of the field and such.

[MarioKart]

Didn't 9 of Mansell's wins, in other words 33% of his total tally, come in the 1992 season?
Which just shows how misleading his own statistics are. Drivers can be massively flattered or hindered by the car they have.

But Senna's and Prost's statistics weren't "flattered" by supreme cars? In 1988 the McLaren MP4/4 was unbeatable
especially as it was the turbo engines vs naturally aspirated cars. Senna won 8 races, Prost 7 races that year (15 out of 16 races).
In 1989 the McLaren MP4/5 was the best car of the field with really no opposition (Senna winning 6 races, Prost 4= 10 races out of 16).
In 1993 Prost won 7 races with the unbeatable FW15C.

Mansell's 1988 season went down the drain with the awful naturally-aspirated Williams-Judd, having 12 DNF out of 14 races (he missed the last 2 races due to illness). IMO he fully deserved to have a supreme car after all the bad luck he endured.

Senna, Prost, Mansell all deserved their wins. It's not just getting the best car, it's what you do with it.


Oh and well done to Alonso!

Edited by MarioKart, 11 July 2011 - 09:33.

[SCUDmissile]

whatever the numbers say, he will be remembered as one of the greats. just my opinion.

[Rinehart]

Only Michael Schumacher has so far won more prior to his 30th birthday - 33

Alonso now has 27 wins, and is only four more wins from tying Nigel Mansell to become the 4th most successful driver in the sport's history.

Considering he has never ever had a car that's clearly the fastest over a full season (McLaren faster in '05 and Ferrari faster second half of '06), it has to be classified as really impressive.

If Ferrari gets order in their aero department soon, Senna's 41 may only be a couple of seasons away...

With respect:

1. That McLaren was fast but FRAGILE so I think its spurious to claim anything other than the Renault was the fastest over a season from lights to flag.
2. The Renault was clearly the best car in overall, in 2006, thanks to Michelins collusion. Don't kid yourself otherwise.
3. The McLaren in 2007 and the Ferrari in 2010 was as good as anything else over a season but he didn't win those titles, they have to be question marks.
4. His statistics obviously include Singapore 2008, so I'd wait one more before popping the champagne.

All the above said, he's a very good driver, but no way better than any of the top 5 winningest drivers in F1 even if he over-hauls them statistically speaking.

[Cesc]

But again, with all the ifs and 'but', Alonso has never had a car that was clearly the fastest in a season, as Senna had (88,89,90), Schumacher had (2001, 2002, 2004...) and Vettel is having now. Yes, he has had a lot of good cars, but never a dominant one (the McLaren in 2005 was unreliable for the first half of the season, but was also fastest than the Renault. The Ferrari was fastest in 2006 for most of the season thanks to the Bridgestone!!! -remember the laptimes in Suzuka, were Schumachwer was 1 second fastest than Alonso in qualy).

[oetzi]

Yup, it's almost a non issue now. People complain about that which confuses me, F1 is a sport of progression and I think it's fantastic that it's managed to move away from big failures every race.

I know it's a bit OT, but the reliability's only that much better because the rules mandate it, and impose engine freezes, rev limits etc. If there was still the choice to push for extra performance at the cost of reliability, we'd still be seeing a fair number of failures.

ps just to echo some comments above, I'm not a great fan of Alonso, but he's proved over the years to be a very good driver.

Edited by oetzi, 11 July 2011 - 12:45.

[Rinehart]

But again, with all the ifs and 'but', Alonso has never had a car that was clearly the fastest in a season, as Senna had (88,89,90), Schumacher had (2001, 2002, 2004...) and Vettel is having now. Yes, he has had a lot of good cars, but never a dominant one (the McLaren in 2005 was unreliable for the first half of the season, but was also fastest than the Renault. The Ferrari was fastest in 2006 for most of the season thanks to the Bridgestone!!! -remember the laptimes in Suzuka, were Schumachwer was 1 second fastest than Alonso in qualy).

Alonso not only had the best car in 2005 and 2006 but didn't have a teammate challenging him. This is entirely the wrong angle to boost Alonso from!

To say that the 2005 McLaren which was faster, but clearly more fragile was a BETTER car to win the championship in, is nonsense.

[KirilVarbanov]

Many people mention his personality, but how many really know him in person ? Yeah, I doubt too, but I don't care as well, he's hell of a driver, and this is an impressive achievement. Let's hope that young lions will do their best to catch up and make us all happy.

Edited by kvarbanov, 11 July 2011 - 13:33.

[Atreiu]

Didn't 9 of Mansell's wins, in other words 33% of his total tally, come in the 1992 season?
Which just shows how misleading his own statistics are. Drivers can be massively flattered or hindered by the car they have.

I absolutely agree.
IMO, it's more impressive that Alonso has competed in 10 full seasons and won races in 7 of them.
Mansell, IIRC, won in 7 of his 13 full seasons and the once in his 94 stint.
Prost won races in 11 of his 13. Senna in 9 from 10.
From Schumacher's first career, he won in every full season including 1992 when he was basically a rookie and then won the very first time he visited a circuit twice!

[EdwardCullen]

Alonso not only had the best car in 2005 and 2006 but didn't have a teammate challenging him. This is entirely the wrong angle to boost Alonso from!

To say that the 2005 McLaren which was faster, but clearly more fragile was a BETTER car to win the championship in, is nonsense.

to add to that, 2007 Mclaren was clearly the class of the field....he just lost out to a complete rookie