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McLaren M23/8-2 clarification ?


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#1 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:09

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Wondering if any one can clarify which M23 is on display at the Donington Collection, or was on June 10th 2011.

The car was labelled as M23/8 and listed on the information board as being the winner of the '76 Spanish and US GP's.

oldracingcars.com lists M23/8-2 as being the chassis that James Hunt used in '76 to win in Spain, Netherlands, Canada, US and the '77 Race of Champions.

M23/8-2 is also listed on ORC as the vehicle in which Gilles Villeneuve and Bruno Jack'O'Malley made their debuts.

Is the car at Donington one and the same as M23/8-2 as referred to by OldRacingCars ?

Confusingly, at the time of the ORC entry, M23/8 was listed as resident in the US while M23/8-2 was allegedly in Switzerland.

Answers maybe used and credited on a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

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#2 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:11

IIRC, M23-8 was wrecked beyond hope in 1976, and the chassis plate was then affixed to the tenth M23 built. The original chassis was later "resurrected" by a McLaren employee, and restored to "show condition".

#3 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:21

IIRC, M23-8 was wrecked beyond hope in 1976, and the chassis plate was then affixed to the tenth M23 built. The original chassis was later "resurrected" by a McLaren employee, and restored to "show condition".


Thanks Michael looking at the tyres on the car at Donington above I'd guess the car on show is possibly a runner so this car may well be the 10th car M23/8-2.

#4 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:49

I have M23/8 as owned by historic racer Folch-Rossinol and M23/10 (8-2) as owned by Bernie.

#5 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 13:14

I have M23/8 as owned by historic racer Folch-Rossinol and M23/10 (8-2) as owned by Bernie.


Would either be conducive to loaning their cars to Donington ?

#6 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 13:57

It wont be M23/8-2 as BCE obtained it after he took all his cars out of Tom's museum. M23/8-2 arrived with BCE after I started working for him, and was there when I left, and is still there.

#7 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 14:06

Joaquin's is in tall airbox/short cockpit spec and lives elsewhere. Is this the ex Andrea Burani car - with a different plate? - or Mr E's having been used for filming or some such?

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 16 July 2011 - 14:10.


#8 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 14:25

It's te right spec' for BCE's, which last time I saw it, was on it's original tyres (or a set of originals anyway) and very original. I didn't think it was a "runner" though.

Is that a Archos camera fitted to the roll hoop?

Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that one isn't BCE's.

#9 Slurp1955

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 14:53

It's te right spec' for BCE's, which last time I saw it, was on it's original tyres (or a set of originals anyway) and very original. I didn't think it was a "runner" though.

Is that a Archos camera fitted to the roll hoop?

Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that one isn't BCE's.


This would appear to be the M23 I photographed in Bahrain lasted year doing the demo laps before the Grand Prix (see the Historics F1 cars in Bahrain thread for photo) It has the same camera fixing on the roll hoop. As was debated on that thread, this was the only non-pukka car there, the guys running it saying that James Hunt may have sat it in for a smoke during a Friday practice (!) , but it was actually spare tub for Jochen Mass in '76. They did say however that Bernie owned it, and it's not M23/8-2. JohnP

Edited by Slurp1955, 16 July 2011 - 16:57.


#10 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 14:57

This would appear to be the M23 I photographed in Bahrain lasted year doing the demo laps before the Grand Prix (see the Historics F1 cars in Bahrain thread for photo) It has the same camera fixing on the roll hoop. As was debated on that thread, this was the only non-pukka car there, the guys running it saying that James Hunt may have sat it in for a smoke during a Friday practice (!) , but it was a actually spare tub for Jochen Mass in '76. They did say however that Bernie owned it, and it's not M23/8-2. JohnP

Oh, it's that one! Then definetly not M23/8-2. BCE has a habit that if he thinks one of his cars is just too good to risk, he has another just like it built!

#11 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 17:32

Oh, it's that one! Then definetly not M23/8-2. BCE has a habit that if he thinks one of his cars is just too good to risk, he has another just like it built!


Going through the Bahrain thread leaves me with either :-

M23/6 spare '76 car for Hunt check, spare car for Jochen check, also raced twice by de Vilota in '77 check, DNQ by de Vilota 5 times in '77 check whereabouts not known to ORC when he posted his details, check

OR

this is a fresh 14th M23 (M23/15?) made from a spare tub I have not heard of until today.

Would anyone care to put me out of my misery either publicly or privately ?

#12 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 17:39

I have no idea which one it is, but I thought M23/10 and M23/8-2 were different cars? 10 being Emerson Fittipaldi's favourite M23 chassis, and M23/8-2 being the James Hunt/Villeneuve/Giacomelli chassis. Although that is from memory so it could be utter rubbish!

#13 f1steveuk

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 17:49

And having checked my database, that is utter rubbish! Can't see a listing for M23/10, I'll get me coat......................

#14 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 17:52

Emmo only drove M23/8-2 three times one rtd, no wins 2 x 2nds the last of which was at the season ending US GP, so unless he was saying he was desperately keen to leave McLaren I do not see why he favour M23/8-2 when he had won races in M23/5, 7 and 9 ?

Not seen M23/10 on any lists either RSC or ORC ?


#15 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 17:53

And having checked my database, that is utter rubbish! Can't see a listing for M23/10, I'll get me coat......................


You beat me to it :clap:

#16 Slurp1955

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 18:01

Could be like the situation with the Bizzarrini P538S, where only eight of the original four still exist. JohnP :cool:

#17 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 19:35

Could be like the situation with the Bizzarrini P538S, where only eight of the original four still exist. JohnP :cool:


:confused: :drunk: :stoned:

#18 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:12

Having compared shots I am pretty sure this is M23/6. What do you need the information for arttidesco? I have a list of names of what I believe to be current owners of most of these but I don't want to publish that online, so if you need more info just get in touch privately.

#19 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:52

Having compared shots I am pretty sure this is M23/6. What do you need the information for arttidesco? I have a list of names of what I believe to be current owners of most of these but I don't want to publish that online, so if you need more info just get in touch privately.


Thanks for your offer to supply the info on M23/6 Woulter but if the info if the information is supposed to be confidential and the owner wishes to remain anonymous then let it remain so I was hoping to use it for my blog :up:

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#20 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:07

Thanks for your offer to supply the info on M23/6 Woulter but if the info if the information is supposed to be confidential and the owner wishes to remain anonymous then let it remain so I was hoping to use it for my blog :up:


The car has Hall&Hall stickers, which may explain why it was at Donnington.

#21 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:47

As was debated on that thread, this was the only non-pukka car there, the guys running it saying that James Hunt may have sat it in for a smoke during a Friday practice (!) , but it was actually spare tub for Jochen Mass in '76. They did say however that Bernie owned it, and it's not M23/8-2. JohnP


If the #21 car seen at Donington above and Bahrain last year is M23/6 then this car could not be more pukka not only did Denny Hulme win the '74 Argentine GP in it but in '76 James used it to cross the line first in 3 consecutive GP's France, Britain and Germany ?

Alternatively if the #21 M23 seen at Donington and Bahrain is M23/2 which was recorded at being at Donington in 2009 then this is Peter Revson's British GP winning chassis which went on a tour of the former colonies in the hands of Dave Charlton in Southern Africa and then got converted to F5000 & Can Am2 spec by John McCormick.

I guess M23/2 never ran in Marlboro colours so may therefore qualify for 'non pukka status' if it was ever converted from F5000/Can Am2 spec into 1976 era Grand Prix spec ?

#22 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:46

I have this as M23/6: http://www.ultimatec...cLaren-M23.html

Note M23/8 behind it.

#23 f1steveuk

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 14:38

Ah but is that M23/8 or M23/8-2 as I believe there is another claiming to be the James Hunt car!!

#24 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 21:39

Thanks Woulter, Sreve in Post 7 Simon notes that M23/8 was restored in tall airbox form :-)

#25 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 23:38

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread here is the link to the blog :-

http://psychoontyres...-m23-m236.html

#26 BT 35-8

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:37

M23/2 was converted to F5000 in Australia however never to Can-am spec. centre seat as far as I know , we did not have that class
in Australia , and John McCormack is the correct spelling for the surname.
Bryan Miller.

#27 Peter Brennan

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:58

M23/2 was converted to F5000 in Australia however never to Can-am spec. centre seat as far as I know , we did not have that class
in Australia , and John McCormack is the correct spelling for the surname.
Bryan Miller.

Bryan is correct. The car was the Charlton car from Sth Africa. John fitted a Leyland V8 and ran in the Tasman/Rothmans series.Car than sat for a number of years till Ron Dennis made an offer John could not refuse, acccording J Mac it was the only M23 Yardley car left and Ron needed it for his museum. Cheers

#28 Bondy

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:47

M23/2 was converted to F5000 in Australia however never to Can-am spec. centre seat as far as I know , we did not have that class
in Australia , and John McCormack is the correct spelling for the surname.
Bryan Miller.


Is this the same Mclaren?

http://www.racingspo...9-06-10-028.jpg

http://www.racingspo...-07-08c-028.jpg

#29 gavinevitt

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:15

Is this the same Mclaren?

http://www.racingspo...9-06-10-028.jpg

http://www.racingspo...-07-08c-028.jpg



Yes, that is the same car. It was used in the single seat Can Am as well as F5000.
All the original M23/2 parts were kept safe when the F5000 conversion took place, so the restoration back to original was relatively straight forward.

M23/1 and M23/2 are both still around and in original spec.

#30 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:52

Thanks for the spelling correction Bryan :blush:

Here is a link to the most complete list of events M23/2 took part in that I know of.

#31 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:02

Sorry for the later appearance but I hadn't spotted the thread.

The car in Donington is indeed M23/6, as Wouter has said. The owner prefers not to have his name disclosed and I will respect his wishes.

#32 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:05

Sorry for the later appearance but I hadn't spotted the thread.

The car in Donington is indeed M23/6, as Wouter has said. The owner prefers not to have his name disclosed and I will respect his wishes.


Thanks Allen :up:

#33 f1steveuk

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 14:23

Nice blog, and I've developed a nasty attack of "u" in my surname ;-)

#34 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 15:08

Nice blog, and I've developed a nasty attack of "u" in my surname ;-)


:blush:

My eyes are dim etc etc etc :rolleyes:

#35 f1steveuk

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 15:28

:blush:

My eyes are dim etc etc etc :rolleyes:

I have been called worse :lol:

#36 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 15:49

I have been called worse :lol:


Apologies anyway :wave: