26 replies to this topic

[THE "driverider"]

In tin top racing can it ever be faster to drift certain corners? For example drifting hairpins like in rallying, but in touring car or GT racing; surely it would make a lap quicker.

[arknor]

In tin top racing can it ever be faster to drift certain corners? For example drifting hairpins like in rallying, but in touring car or GT racing; surely it would make a lap quicker.

surely it would ruin your tyres quick

[T-Mobile]

I would think that if you had a poor entry to certain corners (a tight one), then sliding the back end out with some wheel spin may help you get a better exit. I'm just talking out my ass there though, as logic would say no.

Even though it may initially seem like you're going to go faster with the wheels spinning, I'm quite sure with a good line you'll get much more momentum if you weren't drifting.

Edited by T-Mobile, 19 July 2011 - 10:16.

[Trickydicky]

No because it would savage your tyres and scrub off speed. Rally cars slide because a) you can't set up a car perfectly for a long stage that can contain differing road conditions b) they often run on low grip surfaces (i.e. Gravel) and c) a rally car needs to be able to oversteer as the roads are unknown and a driver needs to be able bring on a slide if he has gone into a corner carrying too much speed. None of these things are an issue when you are going round the same corners over and over again that the car can be set up for on grippy tyres on grippy tarmac. Even rally cars don't slide on tarmac much when driven by proper tarmac experts who are familiar with the roads. Plus they don't have enough power.

Also, Touring Cars are largely front wheel drive these days aren't they, and so can't be drifted.

[Ross Stonefeld]

A FWD car can still drift.

[Jejking]

I had a discussion with a guy who said Schumachers drift through chicane (Austria 2003 qualifying) was on purpose to save time. He did lose the rear end of the car under braking and there is actually proof of him having the same issue/trick at the 2002 quali. Still I think you can't save time with it, only going on par with at max.



vs



Both in the first 30s.

Edited by Jejking, 19 July 2011 - 11:59.

[sharo]

Drifting does not gain time usually. It's spectacular bu not as efficient as driving through the optimal trajectory and carrying the momentum of speed.
I've seen Schumacher letting the car slide a tiny bit sideways through fast big radius turns, just enough to hit the outer edge at the exit, but it's not drifting. Rather a way to drive a bit over the tyre lateral grip limit.

Edited by sharo, 19 July 2011 - 12:13.

[MatsNorway]

Drifting a hairpin? yes.

Anything else? no.

Having corner exit slide. perhaps. i mean... you do get some support from those big shark fins they where running last year. rear toe in might affect the angle allowed for the rear before it goes into a propper slide.


If the rules makes the car horribly understeery it might be some gains to push the car into a slide tho. at least in a tight corner.

Edited by MatsNorway, 19 July 2011 - 15:14.

[BigCHrome]

I had a discussion with a guy who said Schumachers drift through chicane (Austria 2003 qualifying) was on purpose to save time. He did lose the rear end of the car under braking and there is actually proof of him having the same issue/trick at the 2002 quali. Still I think you can't save time with it, only going on par with at max.



vs



Both in the first 30s.

That's not drifting. He's trail braking and the rears slightly locked up.

[HaydenFan]

Even in rally, sliding in any corner is being eliminated. It takes skill to make it work and many drivers lose time rather than gaining any.

[wingwalker]

I had a discussion with a guy who said Schumachers drift through chicane (Austria 2003 qualifying) was on purpose to save time. He did lose the rear end of the car under braking and there is actually proof of him having the same issue/trick at the 2002 quali. Still I think you can't save time with it, only going on par with at max.



vs



Both in the first 30s.

One of my favourite moments in F1. I think that's very much deliberate but only possible in a car driver is 100% confident of, and even with that, it's up a rather steep hill - he locked the rears just slightly to so the car would want to spin to the left and used opposite lock to keep it pointing at the apex. In the end its a faster direction change but it's certainly impossible to repeat the trick each time as it does ruin the tires. Did anyone actually ask MSC whether that was deliberate?

Edited by wingwalker, 19 July 2011 - 16:57.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Hakkinen also did it on his Imola 2000 pole lap.

[Dolph]

I had a discussion with a guy who said Schumachers drift through chicane (Austria 2003 qualifying) was on purpose to save time. He did lose the rear end of the car under braking and there is actually proof of him having the same issue/trick at the 2002 quali. Still I think you can't save time with it, only going on par with at max.



vs



Both in the first 30s.

Time looser for sure

[Dolph]

That's not drifting. He's trail braking and the rears slightly locked up.

Exactly. It's a braking mistake not an intentional drift.

[BullHead]

Not on tarmac. Unless it's wet. Even then....

[Kvothe]

Hakkinen also did it on his Imola 2000 pole lap.

Lewis did it in Malaysia 2008:

[chrisblades85]

No. Otherwise they would do it.

[HaydenFan]

Lewis did it in Malaysia 2008:

Lost about a half a second doing that as well.

[Hippo]

Sliding friction is a lot lower than rolling friction. So braking, cornering and acceleration is worse during a slide.

The only reasons to do it are setup restrictions and uncertainty about the limit. You only know the absolute limit of grip when you step over it. Some people have the ability to control a drift so that they can slide only very slightly. I guess they can thus control how close to the limit they actually are. Because staying below the limit doesn't give you an indication how far away the limit really is. But using a small slide to control the limit only works if the setup and tires allow it.

Ideally you want a setup and driving style, that allow you drive just at the limit without sliding. If you have many, many laps for setup and practice you can find the limit. And then you'll be faster without sliding.

[loki]

When you slide you scrub speed. Might look good to some, but not a fast way to race.

[Richard T]

Touring Car drivers use to talk about driving the car on 102% of what's possible with the amount of grip, that results in the rear wheels on an FWD car is sliding a little little bit in all corners, but because it's just "2%" it still has the friction to give the car the ultimate grip.

Under braking we talk about 17% wheel lock to have the best stopping power. That's the typical Lewis Hamilton inner wheel lock in tight corners...

I'm too tired to explain this properly but you maybe get the point...

G'night!

[pingu666]

its about tyres having a peak grip at a certain amount of slide or scrub

[wingwalker]

Lewis did it in Malaysia 2008:

That's an example of a mid corner oversteer, clearly not intentional and totally different from what MSC did in Austria (whether that was intentional or not).

Edited by wingwalker, 20 July 2011 - 09:14.

[Bloggsworth]

In tin top racing can it ever be faster to drift certain corners? For example drifting hairpins like in rallying, but in touring car or GT racing; surely it would make a lap quicker.

If it did, they would...

[rayburn]

Drifting in the 60's used to be far more common than it is now, the likes of Jim Clark being famous for doing so in saloon cars. My theory is that this was because the tyres were both a lot narrower and harder than today's, and so any loss of speed due to drifting was substantially less.

[Lee Nicolle]

A small amount of sliding may help for a fast lap in a rear drive car in slower, medium speed corners. But done for any length of time will burn up the tyres which equals going slow.

[Sausage]

Sliding is not drifting. Drifting is not racing.