113 replies to this topic

[FlatOverCrest]

Forgive me if this has already been raised...but did anyone else see Hamilton turn right on purpose into Massa and then correct back to the left? If you watch the vid, it looks like he ensures Massa goes off further, by turning right halfway through their tangle and then he turns back left to make the corner?

The car did not seem to step out at all, so I dont think he was catching a moment of oversteer, it looks like a blatant, "Your no coming past no matter what, but if you do, then your going out if you try"?

Any other views of this?

[undersquare]

Forgive me if this has already been raised...but did anyone else see Hamilton turn right on purpose into Massa and then correct back to the left? If you watch the vid, it looks like he ensures Massa goes off further, by turning right halfway through their tangle and then he turns back left to make the corner?

The car did not seem to step out at all, so I dont think he was catching a moment of oversteer, it looks like a blatant, "Your no coming past no matter what, but if you do, then your going out if you try"?

Any other views of this?

The back end was well on the move, he had to correct. I expect it was the correction that made it seem how you saw it.

[peroa]

I see a drift there.

[Ricardo F1]

Forgive me if this has already been raised...but did anyone else see Hamilton turn right on purpose into Massa and then correct back to the left? If you watch the vid, it looks like he ensures Massa goes off further, by turning right halfway through their tangle and then he turns back left to make the corner?

The car did not seem to step out at all, so I dont think he was catching a moment of oversteer, it looks like a blatant, "Your no coming past no matter what, but if you do, then your going out if you try"?

Any other views of this?

You were watching another sport? No idea what you're trying to describe but there was absolutely nothing wrong from either side in that tussle, purely a last lap dive by Massa and best defense from Lewis. Great stuff.

[P123]

Forgive me if this has already been raised...but did anyone else see Hamilton turn right on purpose into Massa and then correct back to the left? If you watch the vid, it looks like he ensures Massa goes off further, by turning right halfway through their tangle and then he turns back left to make the corner?

The car did not seem to step out at all, so I dont think he was catching a moment of oversteer, it looks like a blatant, "Your no coming past no matter what, but if you do, then your going out if you try"?

Any other views of this?

Looks like controlling a drift, probably induced from locking up and turning harder into the corner than before due to Massa being on his outside. Remember you are watching in slow-mo something that happens in a fraction of the time. If he were simply turning into Massa I would have expected the whole car to be pointing at Massa, instead of sliding wide into him. Massa also never went off track until his own couple of oversteer moments.

[glorius&victorius]

LH run into Felipe sidepod was as bad as JV going into MS at Jerez.

We all accepted JVs move so why cant we do the same for LH?

[robefc]

Forgive me if this has already been raised...but did anyone else see Hamilton turn right on purpose into Massa and then correct back to the left? If you watch the vid, it looks like he ensures Massa goes off further, by turning right halfway through their tangle and then he turns back left to make the corner?

The car did not seem to step out at all, so I dont think he was catching a moment of oversteer, it looks like a blatant, "Your no coming past no matter what, but if you do, then your going out if you try"?

Any other views of this?

agreed it looked strange and slow mo but also agree wih explanations given...

[jjcale]

agreed it looked strange and slow mo but also agree wih explanations given...

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

[undersquare]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

Well how did his back wheels end up disappearing behind Massa's, if the car was in-line and he was steering right?

[peroa]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

Are you joking or what?
He has a blocked front wheel and a narrower radius to take the corner, when he turns in the back steps out, he has to correct it by opening the steering.
Look at the video.

[Ricardo F1]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

After the fact explanations including Felipe Massa's?

[jjcale]

Please, he knew exactly what he was doing...

He may as well have screamed this over the radio

Edited by jjcale, 11 July 2011 - 17:18.

[P123]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

I don't think Massa would have made the corner, nor Hamilton just lose part of his endplate were what you say true.

[robybobey]

Are you joking or what?
He has a blocked front wheel and a narrower radius to take the corner, when he turns in the back steps out, he has to correct it by opening the steering.
Look at the video.

+1

Definite oversteer, I saw it with my own eyes from the track and it's evident in the video.

[as65p]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

Sure, but Massa is of the same kind more often than not. I don't have any issues how they dealed with the last corners, they deserve eachother.

If anything I'd take issue with Hamiltons now customary wobbles when he's about to get overtaken.

[ImDDAA]

People are seriously suggesting that Lewis hit Massa on purpose after the last 4 races? Incredible.

[PretentiousBread]

People are seriously suggesting that Lewis hit Massa on purpose after the last 4 races? Incredible.

I watched it again, and honestly, to me it's obvious he was just controlling oversteer - the left front locked up and the car was visibly in a slide. Now, certainly I don't think Hamilton would have cried had he corrected his oversteer by crunching right into Massa's sidepod, but he didn't - he gave just enough room, there was nothing unreasonable about their exchange. I don't think it's Hamilton's style at all to deliberately ram someone in the way we've seen Schumacher do. Pretty baffled at JJ's post.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 11 July 2011 - 18:44.

[FlatOverCrest]

Yes to be fair it was sliding more than I had seen before, so the oversteer correction is mostly likely and in which case, I dont think he did drive into Massa. Was just odd to see his hands switch to correcting the oversteer when it seemed he had a terminal understeer moment...but then again, that might just be the McLaren..

[undersquare]

People are seriously suggesting that Lewis hit Massa on purpose after the last 4 races? Incredible.

One poster. A poster who has also claimed that Lewis lacks outright pace but achieves his success by consistency.

A bored poster, perhaps?

[jjcale]

One poster. A poster who has also claimed that Lewis lacks outright pace but achieves his success by consistency.

A bored poster, perhaps?

I never said he lacks outright pace... and I still maintain that his consistency is even more of a strength than his pace.

As for the incident... when we saw it first who did not think it was deliberate???

As Pantera said on Uplifting "you cant get bought without thought"... too much analysis, you can convince yourself of anything that way... and its always in line with what you believed before

Lets put it this way... if he didnt want to touch he would not have touched... he knew his brakes were cold and what he had to do to keep the car on any particular line in previous laps.

Its kind funny how back when touching meant risking death drivers hardly touched ... now when they think they are safe they are happy to correct the oversteer into another guy's car... esp when that guy is in the process of passing on the last lap.

I dont understand why such a big deal is made of this, deep down we all know what he did... and personally, I dont mind. Its not like it was dangerous. Racing is a pretty safe activity now.... in fact the biggest risk these guys run is from other forms of sport. Esp other forms of sports on wheels cause they seem to think that they cant be hurt driving/riding.

[ImDDAA]

Wow, you're mental.

[robybobey]

I never said he lacks outright pace... and I still maintain that his consistency is even more of a strength than his pace.

As for the incident... when we saw it first who did not think it was deliberate???

As Pantera said on Uplifting "you cant get bought without thought"... too much analysis, you can convince yourself of anything that way... and its always in line with what you believed before

Lets put it this way... if he didnt want to touch he would not have touched... he knew his brakes were cold and what he had to do to keep the car on any particular line in previous laps.

Its kind funny how back when touching meant risking death drivers hardly touched ... now when they think they are safe they are happy to correct the oversteer into another guy's car... esp when that guy is in the process of passing on the last lap.

I dont understand why such a big deal is made of this, deep down we all know what he did... and personally, I dont mind. Its not like it was dangerous. Racing is a pretty safe activity now.... in fact the biggest risk these guys run is from other forms of sport. Esp other forms of sports on wheels cause they seem to think that they cant be hurt driving/riding.

So Schumacher hit Kobayashi on purpose when he slid into him and lost his front wing?

Hamilton had been locking his brakes several times at several different corners in the 4 or 5 laps prior to the battle. So this was when Massa was a good 7 secs behind him. Such a big deal is being made out of it because pretty much everyone who has posted here can evidently see that Hamilton had a touch of oversteer which he corrected by reflex basically.....but you've convinced yourself he did it on purpose .

[jjcale]

Wow, you're mental.

You talking to me?

[PretentiousBread]

Wow, you're mental.

I really enjoy JJ's posts, one of the best posters on these forums, but there's a really fine line sometimes between the brilliant points and the wild theories, so sometimes I mistake one for the other. Did I actually read correctly that JJ said Hamilton should consider physically assaulting someone in McLaren to make a point? Some theory along the lines of 'sometimes you need to create a crisis to solve problems'? Yes, because punching a team member will endear himself to the people who may want him out of the team. Can you imagine if Alonso had been advised by his trainer to punch someone in 2007 to get the team on his side? I can't believe i'm even talking about this in fact.

[jjcale]

So Schumacher hit Kobayashi on purpose when he slid into him and lost his front wing?

Hamilton had been locking his brakes several times at several different corners in the 4 or 5 laps prior to the battle. So this was when Massa was a good 7 secs behind him. Such a big deal is being made out of it because pretty much everyone who has posted here can evidently see that Hamilton had a touch of oversteer which he corrected by reflex basically.....but you've convinced yourself he did it on purpose .

MS/KK was totally different.

LH was going to do what he had to do to have that corner... a bit like MW in Singapore last year.... LH was not ever out of control.

I am not saying he sought him out to ram him MS style; I am saying he knew exactly what he was doing and he was more than prepared to touch to keep FM behind.

Drivers have been doing let me through/back off or we crash since the day of Senna without going so far as to do MS style ramming.

And rather than convince myself of something, I am simply sticking with my first impression formed when I watched it the first time.... and boy was I glad when he did it!!

[Bonaventura]

Sorry to sound like a broken records but what's so hard about believing what your eyes tell you.

He deliberately barged into FM... it was obvious when it happened.... to me, anyway.

The after the fact explanations are all BS IMO.

Who has hacked your account?
The car was sliding like hell on cold tyres and cold brakes, he locked up nearly every corner, it was terrible to watch, the last few laps.

[undersquare]

I never said he lacks outright pace... and I still maintain that his consistency is even more of a strength than his pace.

As for the incident... when we saw it first who did not think it was deliberate???

As Pantera said on Uplifting "you cant get bought without thought"... too much analysis, you can convince yourself of anything that way... and its always in line with what you believed before

Lets put it this way... if he didnt want to touch he would not have touched... he knew his brakes were cold and what he had to do to keep the car on any particular line in previous laps.

Its kind funny how back when touching meant risking death drivers hardly touched ... now when they think they are safe they are happy to correct the oversteer into another guy's car... esp when that guy is in the process of passing on the last lap.

I dont understand why such a big deal is made of this, deep down we all know what he did... and personally, I dont mind. Its not like it was dangerous. Racing is a pretty safe activity now.... in fact the biggest risk these guys run is from other forms of sport. Esp other forms of sports on wheels cause they seem to think that they cant be hurt driving/riding.

Yeah well Lewis said he'd decided Massa wasn't going through, and braked as late as he dared, fair enough. But did he steer into him a la Alguersuari? I don't think so, I think his rears were locking and he was correcting.

And Felipe did get through, of course, it was the following corner he went off at.

On the side issue of his pace vs consistency, JB seems to think it's pace. Though he is a bit biased, wanting the consistency tag for himself. We need Lewis alongside Sebi don't we, then we'd see... .

[jjcale]

I really enjoy JJ's posts, one of the best posters on these forums, but there's a really fine line sometimes between the brilliant points and the wild theories, so sometimes I mistake one for the other. Did I actually read correctly that JJ said Hamilton should consider physically assaulting someone in McLaren to make a point? Some theory along the lines of 'sometimes you need to create a crisis to solve problems'? Yes, because punching a team member will endear himself to the people who may want him out of the team. Can you imagine if Alonso had been advised by his trainer to punch someone in 2007 to get the team on his side? I can't believe i'm even talking about this in fact.

That's very kind of you.... I just call it as I see it.... and I dont mind being wrong. Nobody knows who I am real life.. what have I got to loose??

IMO There's too much of people wanting to be "good posters"/ wanting everyong to join the consensus.... that's just boring.

How can so many people honestly hold exactly the exact same views on controversial issues is a mystery to me!

[pinkypants]

Who has hacked your account?
The car was sliding like hell on cold tyres and cold brakes, he locked up nearly every corner, it was terrible to watch, the last few laps.

Agreed... but hey, I guess the guys past colours the perception of his race craft in future races.

[robybobey]

MS/KK was totally different.

LH was going to do what he had to do to have that corner... a bit like MW in Singapore last year.... LH was not ever out of control.

I am not saying he sought him out to ram him MS style; I am saying he knew exactly what he was doing and he was more than prepared to touch to keep FM behind.

Drivers have been doing let me through/back off or we crash since the day of Senna without going so far as to do MS style ramming.

And rather than convince myself of something, I am simply sticking with my first impression formed when I watched it the first time.... and boy was I glad when he did it!!

Ahh right fair enough . That's slightly different to the "He deliberately barged into FM" post earlier.

Mansell said it was a racing incident - which I completely agree with .

[jjcale]

Who has hacked your account?
The car was sliding like hell on cold tyres and cold brakes, he locked up nearly every corner, it was terrible to watch, the last few laps.

OK ... in fairness the "deliberately barged" bit... that sounds like an MS style ram... and if that's what everybody is jumping on... I can understand that.

I put it in the same category as FM/RK at Fuji... they were bumping and barging (very diberately) but not ramming each other MS style.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

[Bonaventura]

OK ... in fairness the "deliberately barged" bit... that sounds like an MS style ram... and if that's what everybody is jumping on... I can understand that.

I put it in the same category as FM/RK at Fuji... they were bumping and barging (very diberately) but not ramming each other MS style.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

Yes, better. No dirty moves.
No way in hell to put somebody deliberately off the track , or out of the race.
This race added a few grey hairs on my noble head

It was pretty obvious since about the half of the race something hampered Lewis driving (ATM I did not know he had to conserve fuel)
The last few laps nearly gave me a heart attack to see Lewis fighting for pos while sliding like on ice


http://img695.images...verstone011.jpg

Edited by Bonaventura, 11 July 2011 - 21:26.

[Ricardo F1]

OK ... in fairness the "deliberately barged" bit... that sounds like an MS style ram... and if that's what everybody is jumping on... I can understand that.

I put it in the same category as FM/RK at Fuji... they were bumping and barging (very diberately) but not ramming each other MS style.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

Simple fact is that if it wasn't the last two corners of the last lap Massa would NEVER have tried to go passed there. He only went for it because it was his last chance ; went on the brakes ridiculously late and turned in. I'm not exactly sure where he expected Hamilton to disappear to myself, Massa tried to react as Hamilton understeered but not much. Hence why Massa had ZERO problem with it, it was a banzai last gasp passing attempt that VERY nearly worked.

[mstar]

I don't think lewis is a driver to deliberately hit someone on purpose.

I just loved it when his engineer on the last lap said "Lewis last lap give it everything you got" and lewis's dragged the car and dug deep and seriously if lewis got a penalty i would of threw the TV out of the window (honest!)

[Alarcon]

I don't think lewis is a driver to deliberately hit someone on purpose.

I just loved it when his engineer on the last lap said "Lewis last lap give it everything you got" and lewis's dragged the car and dug deep and seriously if lewis got a penalty i would of threw the TV out of the window (honest!)

If Lewis can lie the stewards I have some doubts he can hit deliberately on purpose someone. It´s an attitude, if he proved he is not honest outside of the track, why thinking he will be honest on track?

[Ricardo F1]

If Lewis can lie the stewards I have some doubts he can hit deliberately on purpose someone. It´s an attitude, if he proved he is not honest outside of the track, why thinking he will be honest on track?

See a specialist.

[AMG FAN]

OK ... in fairness the "deliberately barged" bit... that sounds like an MS style ram... and if that's what everybody is jumping on... I can understand that.

I put it in the same category as FM/RK at Fuji... they were bumping and barging (very diberately) but not ramming each other MS style.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

i can get where you are coming from,i don't think he deliberately barged into Massa,i think he knew he had two chances either he braked early and avoided any contact or braked late and risked making contact,he chose the former because he knew that was his only chance of keeping the place...fair in my books,any racer would do that.

[seahawk]

People are seriously suggesting that Lewis hit Massa on purpose after the last 4 races? Incredible.

Does it matter? If he did and kept his position by doing that, even better.

You are forgetting that Vettel is making the car looking better than really is. Benchmark: Webber. Benchmark of Lewis: Button.

They are equal on Championship and since they are team mates Hamilton scored only 1 more victory and more podium than Jenson...

We can be sure that Jenson is treated equally by the team, we can also be sure that Webber is not treated that way by his team, so the conparison is wrong.

Edited by seahawk, 12 July 2011 - 05:14.

[moorsey]

If Lewis can lie the stewards I have some doubts he can hit deliberately on purpose someone. It´s an attitude, if he proved he is not honest outside of the track, why thinking he will be honest on track?

You need to start watching tiddly-winks.

[tifosiMac]

For anyone who says Hamilton deliberately hit Massa in the middle of the corner, get yourself in a go kart, late break yourself and try and turn in without encountering oversteer. If you manage it, call McLaren and I'm sure they will replace Lewis with you immediately.

Edited by tifosiMac, 12 July 2011 - 06:14.

[ImDDAA]

Does it matter? If he did and kept his position by doing that, even better.



We can be sure that Jenson is treated equally by the team, we can also be sure that Webber is not treated that way by his team, so the conparison is wrong.

Yes, it matters - crashing into someone on purpose is the height of douch baggery and if anyone did it to Lewis, you'd cry tears of rage into your Frosties.

[tifosiMac]

Why are we discussing drivers crashing into others deliberately?
Is that even relevant?

[ImDDAA]

Why are we discussing drivers crashing into others deliberately?
Is that even relevant?

You're not, you're discussing people discussing it. Next level.

[ArtShelley]

Sure, but Massa is of the same kind more often than not. I don't have any issues how they dealed with the last corners, they deserve eachother.

If anything I'd take issue with Hamiltons now customary wobbles when he's about to get overtaken.

You actually believe Lewis tried to steer into Massa? Wow.

And what customary wobbles when about to get overtaken? At Silverstone he moved only once to block, as is allowed. When Seb tried to overtake, he didn't even move, he just stayed on the dry line whilst Seb was weaving behind rapidly to try and unsettle him. When Alonso went for the overtake, Lewis did not wobble. Can you point out on one of the many videos available on youtube this customary wobble you are referring to? Otherwise I would suggest trying to hold your head still while watching the races and you may not see these imaginary wobbles.

[tifosiMac]

You're not, you're discussing people discussing it. Next level.

Huh? Next level??

[as65p]

You actually believe Lewis tried to steer into Massa? Wow.

No, that's not the phrasing I did, or would, use.

I think they both showed a "what-the-hell" attitude in those last corners, simply throwing their cars around without any regards to possible consequences. Not deliberately driving into eachother, but accepting heavy contact as a consequence of their driving.

Both did have similar adventures in the past too. And in this case, why not, it sure was good fun with minimal risk (even with one or both losing a bit more bodywork or even a wheel, they surely would have made the finish line either 4th or 5th in any case).

And what customary wobbles when about to get overtaken? At Silverstone he moved only once to block, as is allowed. When Seb tried to overtake, he didn't even move, he just stayed on the dry line whilst Seb was weaving behind rapidly to try and unsettle him. When Alonso went for the overtake, Lewis did not wobble. Can you point out on one of the many videos available on youtube this customary wobble you are referring to? Otherwise I would suggest trying to hold your head still while watching the races and you may not see these imaginary wobbles.

You can clearly see it on replay (unless you don't want to see it ;) ). Hamilton on the straight twitches his car very rapidly (but only a few centimetres) in one direction or the other to scare off the overtaker. He's done that basically since forever, certainly in F1. AFAIK he has never been punished for it, so it seems it's okay with the stewards, so good for him. I presume it mostly doesn't qualify as a "move" in their book. Certainly I'm not the only one noticing it, on Sunday when Alonso took him back either DC or Brundle mentioned something about him having to be careful how much / often he "micro-moves".

Oh, and for a response in kind: in case you never noticed all that, how about a shiny large flatscreen to help your weakening eyesight? Youtube is for people with 20/20, you know...

PS: I just looked it up on iplayer, with Alonso on lap 24 DC said Hamilton did a little "wiggle". I wrote "wobble", my bad. Even more, when he talked about Hamilton having to be careful, it was later in the battle with Vettel, and DC called it "mini-move", not "micro-move" as I did above.

So I guess I was all wrong...

Edited by as65p, 12 July 2011 - 08:47.

[The Ragged Edge]

Yes to be fair it was sliding more than I had seen before, so the oversteer correction is mostly likely and in which case, I dont think he did drive into Massa. Was just odd to see his hands switch to correcting the oversteer when it seemed he had a terminal understeer moment...but then again, that might just be the McLaren..

If you overtake on the outside, you cannot squeeze off the corner and you have to give the driver on the inside some room, IE; one cars width. Massa did neither of those and hence was always going to cause a collision. The only way a collision was going to be avoided, is if Hamilton pulled out and acquiesced to Massas move. After Monaco, I cannot see Hamilton giving an inch to Massa again. To be honest it was a good move by Massa IMO, but with certain drivers not yielding and getting praised by the pundits, for tough driving and hard defending, Massa was always going to be onto a loser, if Hamilton decided to defend his corner.

[robefc]

PS: I just looked it up on iplayer, with Alonso on lap 24 DC said Hamilton did a little "wiggle". I wrote "wobble", my bad. Even more, when he talked about Hamilton having to be careful, it was later in the battle with Vettel, and DC called it "mini-move", not "micro-move" as I did above.

So I guess I was all wrong...

That was when lewis moved a little to the inside before copse and then back onto the racing line right? Which appeared fine to me as his one move and then back to the racing line (I'm aware there isn't reference to moving back to the racing line in the rules but it appears to be the accepted definition of one move).

Not the same thing as you are referring to in that instance, although he definitely moved/wobbled/wibbled a little on wellington when either alonso or webber overtook him, I think brundle or DC said it looked like he hadn't made up his mind what to do.

I might be paranoid but DC and brundle seem very eager to mention the defender needs to be careful in terms of how many moves when the defender is lewis....or maybe they're eager with everyone?

Edited by robefc, 12 July 2011 - 10:19.

[sosidge]

For anyone who says Hamilton deliberately hit Massa in the middle of the corner, get yourself in a go kart, late break yourself and try and turn in without encountering oversteer. If you manage it, call McLaren and I'm sure they will replace Lewis with you immediately.

Go karts are not cars and behave completely differently.

[AvranaKern]

I might be paranoid but DC and brundle seem very eager to mention the defender needs to be careful in terms of how many moves when the defender is lewis....or maybe they're eager with everyone?

Well, there is a very good saying in my language. Roughly translation:

One is known as 9, no one can decrease it to 8.