9 replies to this topic

[Andy35]

More than any other season it seems to be there are more and more of "must try harder". The never ending pace of development on the aero is the reason it seeme to me, I'm not sure it won't implode at some point.

All the F1 teams could have a far easier life if the FIA just removed a lot of the aero and had engines which delivered far more grunt than the availlable grip. That would put a lot of the performance back into the drivers hands. It would also mean the engine departments and the drivers have more of a say in a triangle that at the moment has the chasssis / aero as king.

Even tyre wear is due to aero, I'd rather have it due to trying to put too much power down ;)

I've been saying this for years about too much aero but it is now obvious that if with 2011 regulations the engine has more of an effect on the outcome of a race when it is OFF THROTTLE than compared to when it is being applied, well then it really has gone too far.

How about a maximum downforce of 100kg as an over riding rule? It's judged at the start of the season in an FIA wind tunnel and then nothing else can be done to it. Meanwhile you can tinker with your engine as much as you want rather than crying crocodile tears about reliability which we all know is a big fib.

With it all being not down to the engine nowadays it does seem that it is rather one dimensional, all the DRS tweaks and KERS and asking the tyre manufacturer to intervene is just missing the point completely whilst trying to get the same result. Soon we will have turbo engines, but they are limited before they start. I say just let them have their head and have 1300, 1400, 1500bhp. With reduced aero to that level they will be going slower on the corners so being more safe. After all power is nothing without control. as a certain tyre company would say.


You know something is wrong when one man, with initial A N can be so influential on the outcome. If it has to be one man so influential, it should be a driver.


Andy

PS Nothing against A N, I think he is fantastic, but I want priorities in other places, ie in the cockpit.

Edited by Andy35, 26 July 2011 - 16:53.

[King Six]

I think having all these nifty engine maps and exhaust placements is the closest we've been for some time to engines becoming a real factor in F1, so I've quite liked it. Even if it's ultimately an aero thing. Plus suspension/mechanical grip/car setup is often overlooked as part of a cars performance. Aero is often focused on by outsiders as it's the most visible change. But there's more to it than that.

Here's my thoughts on it:

F1 has become very unionised with FOTA and such, and with Ferrari having less influence in the FIA then before. You only have four engine manufacturers, three of which are on the grid representing themselves (Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault). So the other teams don't do anything except aero (some do KERS and gearbox), and in this unionised/democratised state it becomes no wonder that Aero is basically the only thing you can change and improve on. It balances the playing field tremendously for them and they will always do everything they can to keep it that way.

F1 is heavily in favour of the privateer teams, under the guise of costs and in terms of sheer numbers. The manufacturer era has gone, but if you look through history F1 has always swayed between the two types of eras. So for now it's going to stay like this, but maybe not for too long.

In any sense, with the proper hybrids coming in for 2014, I expect to see alot of developments, alot of retirements, issues, all of that. It's the next step in motoring, so we're heading back into uncharted territory just like old times.

[Andy35]

Ok so this topic gets 1 star and yet

Best Facial Hair in F1 ?

has 4 stars.

What a put down.

I shall never start a topic about engine power v aero again .

Any how, which driver has the biggest cock?




Andy

[Andrew Hope]

I can tell who the biggest cock in this thread is. Who gives a **** about thread ratings? You've got a well-thought out response to a vague topic idea and decide to bitch before the thread even hits two replies?

Edited by andrew., 26 July 2011 - 19:39.

[abc02]

Ok so this topic gets 1 star and yet

Best Facial Hair in F1 ?

has 4 stars.

What a put down.

I shall never start a topic about engine power v aero again .

Any how, which driver has the biggest cock?




Andy

The board isn't very active right now so I'd have patience if I were you. Anyway lemme respond.

More than any other season it seems to be there are more and more of "must try harder". The never ending pace of development on the aero is the reason it seeme to me, I'm not sure it won't implode at some point.

All the F1 teams could have a far easier life if the FIA just removed a lot of the aero and had engines which delivered far more grunt than the availlable grip. That would put a lot of the performance back into the drivers hands. It would also mean the engine departments and the drivers have more of a say in a triangle that at the moment has the chasssis / aero as king.

Even tyre wear is due to aero, I'd rather have it due to trying to put too much power down ;)

I've been saying this for years about too much aero but it is now obvious that if with 2011 regulations the engine has more of an effect on the outcome of a race when it is OFF THROTTLE than compared to when it is being applied, well then it really has gone too far.

How about a maximum downforce of 100kg as an over riding rule? It's judged at the start of the season in an FIA wind tunnel and then nothing else can be done to it. Meanwhile you can tinker with your engine as much as you want rather than crying crocodile tears about reliability which we all know is a big fib.

With it all being not down to the engine nowadays it does seem that it is rather one dimensional, all the DRS tweaks and KERS and asking the tyre manufacturer to intervene is just missing the point completely whilst trying to get the same result. Soon we will have turbo engines, but they are limited before they start. I say just let them have their head and have 1300, 1400, 1500bhp. With reduced aero to that level they will be going slower on the corners so being more safe. After all power is nothing without control. as a certain tyre company would say.


You know something is wrong when one man, with initial A N can be so influential on the outcome. If it has to be one man so influential, it should be a driver.


Andy

PS Nothing against A N, I think he is fantastic, but I want priorities in other places, ie in the cockpit.

Your post doesn't make alot of sense, but the main point you seem to be getting across is that you want F1 to be more about the driver than the car. And you think heavily restricted aero and 1500hp engines can somehow accomplish that.

But the only way the drivers can have more influence on the results than the cars, is if F1 becomes a spec series where all the teams have identical budgets. Otherwise F1 will always be about which team can make the best car. With your proposal you're just making it about who can make the best engine, rather than the best upside-down aeroplane.

[Malmedy]

F1 doesn't need less aero, however it does need much better engines. First of all f1 is currently a farce as it is barely faster than gp2. Second if you want driver to player a larger role, the cars should be harder to drive. Spec series are not an answer as even here money does all the talking. Making the cars harder to drive means more power, harder tyres (this weekend we saw plenty of lock ups under braking, which were partly caused by lack of temperatures), making the cars more fragile, abolish flappy paddle gearboxes and have the driver shift with a stick.
IMHO the biggest reason why drivers have become so unimportant is the absurd levels of safety: mistakes are no longer punished and drivers have become to stupid to judge their own skills (DRS ban in the Monaco tunnel being a prime example).
Finally I completely disagree that the driver should be the most influential person on the outcome of an f1 event. f1 through the years has been a showcase of technical prowess, ingenuity. F1 is and should be a team effort, the driver is only the last link in the system. If you want to see pure driver skills motogp, btcc and wrc are much better series to watch as in these series the drivers really get to show their talents and balls!

[Tenmantaylor]

Mostly agree with OP. The torqueless V8s we currently have are no challenge for the drivers in the higher teams, the only time they have to worry about lighting up the tyres or spinning is out of the slowest corners or the start. As soon as the speed has built sufficiently and the downforce ramps up it's like being back to the traction control days.

The thing about off throttle not being important is wrong however. Most racing drivers will tell you there is usually more time to be found going into a corner, the transition from braking to when you start to pick the throttle back up is more important than just the back on. Fast in, fast out beats slow in, fast out.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 July 2011 - 00:03.

[pingu666]

actully that depends on the drivers and cars, also that at the high levels theres not much difference between traction sensing between drivers, while the difference of skill/ability under braking is higher.

also with the new tyres vs old tyres, if you watch carefully the most gain seems tobe on forward bite. Drive out of the corner is way better on new tyres.

on a stock car, a overtaking move is way more depent on beating the guy in front off the corner, or getting alongside. second one is how you roll through the corner (more so on a oval) then finaly brakes.

but id agree with the sadness of 90%+ of updates and changes being aero stuff

[SCUDmissile]

if i was Jean Todt, then i would say, 'You are allowed to spend 100m on the chassis, and 100m on the engine'

and they can do what they want with that, spend it on what they like, and do what they like with mechanical parts and engines, and ground effects.

and maybe tell them the cars can have fancy rear and front wings, but none of this diffuser business, and more than 50% of the DF has to come from Ground effects. would improve overtaking aswell.

then maybe, as to keep it safe, make a limit for engines to do not more than 1000BHP.

[Stormsky68]

IMO the driver should have the single biggest influence on race performance. Its a shame the only time this happens nowdays is when we have rain, unusual cold, or massive tyre degredation.

I am for anything that helps bring drivers skills to the fore and allows the really skilled guys to shine, and suspect simpler aero would big part to play in my F1 utopia.