32 replies to this topic

[desmo]

http://www.f1-live.c.../ferrari_02.jpg

The first thing I notice are the apparently paired intake trumpets. The intake dynamics must be very much influenced by this arrangement. Assuming a conventional five throw crank, the cylinders are paired from the same crank throw and are thus 90 degrees out of phase.

[Alvega]

According to Paolo Martinelli, the 050 is 8% lighter than its predecessor.

Assuming the 049 weighed 100 Kg, this means some 8 Kg reduction, to circa 92 Kg. Amazing !

The new engine is also some 20 mm lower.

[Ali_G]

Nice looking engine.

Anyone care to guess on its bhp.

I would think 830

Niall

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Anyone care to guess on its bhp.

I would think 830

Niall

Is this one of those competitions similar to guessing how many jelly beans there are in a jar?

[Rainer Nyberg]

We saw 830 already last year, so this must be pushing towards 850.

[Powersteer]

The Ferrari has a lower engine partially being a 90 degree vee ten. Get the balance right

[colejk]

So according to the Atlas Weekly Grapevine, this engine has been hitting 870bhp in qualifying trim! H*ly ****!
I take it that we can assume a race trim output of 850bhp.

I still remember the 1st race I went to in Montreal in 88 and reading the racing program, the Honda turbo V6 was listed at 670 bhp. (I think) Sh*t They've come a long way.

If you see the Ferrari site, they post all horsepower figures from older F1 engines. I don't think they've ever been this high with the exception being a couple of years during the pre pop off valve turbo era.

Other than increasing revs which is the main reason for increased HP how much further can they take these things?
They're now making CART engine power with only .35L more displacement and no turbo.

[Ali_G]

Ya but in CART they are only allowed to use springs in their valve acctuation systems.

In F1 the Aero Valves allow for a lot higher revs.

Niall

[david_martin]

Yeah true, but the CART engines run on methanol, whereas the F1 engines are supposed to run on EU standard 98 octane gasoline.

In any case both are still a long way short of the non boost limited F1 turbo qualifying engines from 1986. I remember that Gerhard Berger and Teo Fabi ran off a string of absolutely blistering qualifying laps in the latter part of 1986 in the BMW powered Benetton that was using a qualifying engine rumoured to be putting out over 1500 bhp.

[Ali_G]

I heard of that engine before but I thought it only did about 1300 bhp.

Top speeds at the time must have been blistering.

Niall

[Ross Stonefeld]

I heard once Senna's lotus was doing 215mph at the end of Tamburello straight

these engines are going to be lighter than me soon

[david_martin]

From comments attributed to Paul Rosche, the truth is that nobody at BMW was entirely sure. BMW motorsport's biggest engine dyno could apparently only be run safely up to about 1350 bhp, and they hit that limit sometime during late 1984. After that they had to extrapolate the torque and power curves from what they could measure to estimate the peak power.

I am not sure the top speeds were necessarily always that much higher than today. Having all that power just mean they could run a lot of wing and get the cornering speed up. Witness Keke Rosberg's qualifying lap at Silverstone in 1985...

[Richard Border]

I don't see an harmonic exhaust valve of any kind in the
exhaust system. Do they not use one or do they tack it on
the exhaust collector?

[desmo]

If they use any sort of EXUP-type valve, it is obviously not present in the publicity photo. If that is a dummy exhaust for public showing, it is nonetheless beautifully constructed, right down to the lambda sensor.

Autosport is reporting that the V-angle may be greater than 90 degrees, although this contradicts what some other sources are reporting.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by desmo
http://www.f1-live.c.../ferrari_02.jpg

The first thing I notice are the apparently paired intake trumpets. The intake dynamics must be very much influenced by this arrangement. Assuming a conventional five throw crank, the cylinders are paired from the same crank throw and are thus 90 degrees out of phase.

desmo:

My understanding is that all the trumpets (whether 5 or 10) move in unison based primarily on engine RPM. I may just be reading something into your comments that makes me question my assumption. Pls. advise.

Rgds;

[desmo]

Yes, I also assume that the trumpets on the 050 move in unison. I don't know if the corresponding cylinders across the V that appear to be siamesed fire on the same revolution or not. I am curious how the resonances of the paired intakes interact with each other. Unfortunately nobody wants to list the firing order of their engines. I'd really like to know if all the teams use the same FO, or whether there are differing approaches.

[moog101]

The Honda turbo ran 1500bhp in qualifying trim, and over 1000 in race trim.

At 1000 bhp per litre it has the highest specific output of any racing engine EVER! I find it astonishing that they were only 1.5l

[Ali_G]

That really is unatural.

Wasn't that engine an inline 6 cylender.

Niall

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Ali_G
That really is unatural.

Wasn't that engine an inline 6 cylender.

Niall

60 degree V6 with two turbochargers, as were the Renault, Ferrari and Cosworth. The Alfa-Romeo was a 90 degree V8 twin-turbo. BMW, Hart, Zakspeeed, and Motori-Moderni were all inline 4's IIRC - all single turbos, although I vaugely recall that one of the Zakspeed engines might have been sequentially turbocharged. There might be others, but that is about all I can remember right now.

[Marco94]

Sorry to dissappoint you david, but the Honda and TAG-Porsche turbo engines had an 80 degree cilinder bank angle.

The Renault, Ferrari and Motori-Moderni had an 90 degree cilinder bank angle. Not 100% sure about the MM.

The Ford turbo engine had a 120 degree cilinder bank engine.

Alfa-Romeo had two types, first a 90 degree V-8 and later on a 4 cilinder inline. That one was fitted in a Ligier, but never raced IIRC.

Marco.

[david_martin]

Thankyou for the correction - the 60 degree BTW was a typo I thought they were all 90 degree. Still does not make it any less incorrect, though

I have also heard of that 4 cylinder Alfa engine, which IIRC was going to be Alfa's answer to the fuel consumption problems their otherwise excellent V8 suffered from when the boost and fuel limits came in for 1987 and 1988. Renee Arnoux made some comments in the French press about how bad the Alfa engine was and it incensed Alfa's management so much they tore up their contract with Ligier and left the team without an engine supplier! Ligier were absent at the beginning of 1987 while they redesigned the car to take the Megatron engine and the team debuted the car at Imola in May.

[Timm]

Impressive as the current engines are, what about the following;-

1986 Benetton BMW. Gerhard Berger, Monza

Engine: BMW 1.5litre in-line 4-cylinder. Block is based on a production casting. Single turbocharger. 1600 horsepower. Life expectancy, 2 laps.

[desmo]

From formula1.co.uk:

"Very soon the F1 engine was to become famed for its awesome power. Between '82 and the end of '86, when the German company officially pulled out, it won nine grands prix and took 15 fastest laps. Not bad for a cast-iron lump on which Rosche had carried out performance tweaks which included leaving it outside to rust and asking his staff to urinate on it!"

I'd heard this story before, and it gets my vote for most bizarre demon tweak ever.

[Rainer Nyberg]

F 1 - T U R B O E N G I N E S
1 9 7 7 - 8 8
(all 1500cc)

Engine - Nat - Type - Bore x stroke - Power - Weight(kg) - VPC - Wins - In use

Alfa 890T V8.........I...V90...74,0 x 43,5...760/11800...170...4....0...1983-87
Alfa 415T............I...L4....92,0 x 56,4...830/na......124...4....0....(1986)
BMW M12/13...........D...L4....89,2 x 60,0...900/9500....165...4....9...1981-87
Ferrari 126C.........I...V120..81,0 x 48,4...920/11000...177...4...14...1981-86
Perrari 90deg V6.....I...V90...81,0 x 48,4...920/11500...na....4....2...1987-88
Ford TEC V6..........GB..V120....na x na.....900/12000...136...4....0...1986-87
Hart 415T............GB..L4....88,0 x 61,5...740/10000...140...4....0...1981-85
Honda RA163E V6......J...V80...80,0 x 49,0...950/11300...160...4...34...1983-87
Honda RA168E V6/2,5b.J...V80...79,0 x 50,6...685/12500...146...4....-......1988
Megatron S4..........D...L4....89,2 x 60,0...900/9500....165...4....0...1987-88
Motori Moderni 6VTC..I...V60...80,0 x 49,7...720/11300...154...4....0...1985-86
Osella 890T V8.......I...V90...74,0 x 43,5...760/11800...170...4....0......1988
Renault EF1-15 V6....F...V90...86,0 x 43,0...850/11000...180...4...20...1977-86
TAG Porsche PO1 V6...D...V80...82,0 x 47,3...900/11000...150...4...25...1983-87
Zakspeed 4 Turbo.....D...L4....90,4 x 58,2...850/10800...160...4....0...1985-88

[silver]

If I can remember correctly Berger saw his BMW engines turboboost go to 4.5 bars during that qual and Heini Mader calculated afterwards that at that moment the engine produced way more than 1400 bhp.

As mentioned above they couldnt measure it since the dynamometer run out of scale in about 1200 bhp or so...

That is some serious bhp were are talking about...

Ps. Does anyone know where i can see that Rosberg's qual lap from Silverstone 1985?

[Ali_G]

Just wondering but on average what sort of psi were the turbo charges pumping out. Was there any limit.

Niall

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Just wondering but on average what sort of psi were the turbo charges pumping out. Was there any limit.

Niall

As Silver said

Berger saw his BMW engines turboboost go to 4.5 bars

Pretty simple philosophy - just blank off the waste gate and hope she doesn't blow

There were no boost limits until 1987, when pop-off valves were introduced with a mandatory 2.5 bar boost maximum. In 1988 that was further reduced to 1.8 bar IIRC.

[Alvega]

david_martin,

1987: 4,0 bar, 195L fuel tank capacity
1988: 2,5 bar, 150L fuel tank capacity

[david_martin]

Thanks, Alvega. I was not near anything to check the numbers when I posted that

[Alvega]

When the F1 teams started to prepare the 1988 season, the cars were actually faster then those used in the previous season, despite the severe reduction in the maximum allowed boost. It turned out during the season that the most important factor limiting performance was the reduction in the capacity of the fuel tank. Honda indeed mastered fuel efficiency in their engines in 1988.

[david_martin]

True. Honda mastered pop-off valves too IIRC. The original FIA design did not work very well at all and it was the Honda guys who sorted out a design that was later adopted as the FIA standard.

[Timm]

Re: Rosberg's '85 lap of Silverstone.

Apparently (and I'm prepared to be contradicted) Rosberg's lap was done with a slow puncture!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GunStar]

Actually, for boosting in 1986, the BMW qualifying engine was supposedly cranking about 5.5 bar. They said in late 86, they could safely get about 5.0 bar in race conditions. This is after Gordon Murray added a stenghthening bar into the casting matrix. On the HP side of the game, unless somebody finds a working BMW qualifying and race engine, a really capable dyno, and the "good mix", we'll never know exactly how much that thing pumped out.