46 replies to this topic

[KRMKRM]

I know the race tracks Riverside and Mosport a little bit from pictures, Television, maps and racing games as Nascar Legends and Grand Prix Legends. In 1983 the former F1-driver Rolf Stommelen (Lola) died during a sportscar race at Riverside driving a Porsche 935. Manfred Winkelhock (ATS) died in 1985 when he participated in a Group-C sports car race at Mosport (Porsche 956). Does anyone know in which part (turn) of the Riverside resp. Mosport-track the accidents occured? Of course I am interested to learn another details about these horrible accidents.

[fines]

IIRC Winkelhock crashed at turn 2, I'm not sure where Stommelen's accident happened, maybe I can check.

Incidentally, I got to meet them both in 1982, during a TV production I was taking part in when only 15! (A story in itself, maybe I'll come back to that some time later) While Winkelhock was very much the young professional (he was just in his first full season of F1 Racing back then), I have the fondest of memories of Stommelen. A really nice bloke, very down to earth and unassuming, he took time chatting to my teenage self when we stood close together by chance, just as if he knew me for years. Amongst all those *important* TV people he really stood out, a perfect example of a man not affected by popularity.

[David M. Kane]

Bobby Rahal stated in his biography that it was not a good
idea to have a big crash in any racing Porsche. Bellof also
was killed in a 956 or 962 at Spa. Was Pedro Rodriquez in a Porsche when he had his fatal crash at the Norisring?

[fines]

No, a Ferrari, IIRC it was Herbert Müller's car!?

[Dave Ware]

Yes, it was Herbert Mueller's 512. The race was an Interseries race.

Nice to hear that about Stommelen. Thanks, fines.

Dave

[david_martin]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Bobby Rahal stated in his biography that it was not a good idea to have a big crash in any racing Porsche.

Too true. The 917 had an uncanny knack of breaking in two an inappropriate moments. Just ask David Piper.

[Ray Bell]

...recalling Frank Gardner's comments at the Nurburgring, where he first drove one...

They explained that the gauge on the dash indicated the gas pressure in the tubes of the aluminium chassis. "If the pressure drops, then drive slowly back to the pits."

Frank told them he'd park it on the side of the track if the pressure dropped!

[Barry Boor]

I'm pretty sure Rolf's crash was at the final turn. The big 180 degree loop onto the start/finish straight. But I could be wrong! I've been wrong before - many times.....

[Rainer Nyberg]

On the 11th of August Manfred would drive his last race, driving the Kremer Porsche at the Canadian round of the World Endurance Championship at Mosport.

Coming into Turn 2 and without any attempt to turn the steering wheel Manfreds Porsche 962 hit the concrete-wall surrounding the track almost head on.

Former F1-team boss Willi Kauhsen, who was at the scene as a spectator became an eyewitness to the accident.
He said : "Winkelhock was on the ideal-line but suddenly he went straight on off the track into the wall"
The front of the 962 was completely demolished and it took over one hour to extract Winkelhock from the wrecked car.
The Medical Helicopter took off for the Sunnybrook Medical Center in nearby Toronto. Manfred had suffered massive head-injuries in the crash and his condition was critical.
The surgeons were unable to save the life of Manfred and he was pronounced dead the following day.

The reason for the accident has never been made clear. Some suggest Manfred blacked out in the fast high G-force corner while others suggested mechanical failure. A tyre-failure was maybe the most probable cause.

Rainer

[David M. Kane]

Barry I believe you are correct. If I recall correctly the
935s had an aluminum rollcage which didn't hold up too well
in the crash. Porsche has always seem to safety so seriously
in their road cars, but they always seem to have this macho
attitude about race cars.

Brian Redman did a lot of the early development of the 917, I remember this one story of him being very bullied by Bott
(I believe that is the correct spelling), the chief engineer
at Porsche at the time. I have never ever understood guys
like that and Chapman is another who always had this attitude about who's brave and who's not. Where does stupid
start?

[FLB]

I seem to remember that Stommelen died in a K3 built by Kremer, not Porsche? Is this impression correct?

Anyway, on the subject of Porsches, Brian Redman was horrified the first time he sat in a 908/3. Then, he learned the thing had been much faster (something like 10 secs a lap) the first time it had run at the 'Ring!

That's how racing drivers think.

[David M. Kane]

A Kremer K3 was simply a modified Porsche 935. They changed
the aeros on the bodywork, the chassis was still a Porsche
chassis. If I am wrong, please accept my apology in advance.

As to Brian Redman's 908/3 comments, yes it was 10 secs a
lap faster AND a 908/3 almost killed him too. I believe he received the severe burns that still scare his face today in
a near fatal accident in one at the Targa Florio. He's a very lucky boy to have survived that one.

[FLB]

Redman's Targa Florio crash happened in 1971. That race was unfortunately fatal to another driver, Fulvio Tandoy. Considering the nature of the Piccole Madonie circuit and of the entrants (many amateurs), it's amazing the Targa has a good record in terms of fatalities.

The reason I asked about Stommelen's 935 is that I keep reading the word "replica" whenever that car is described.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yes the K3 version of the 935 is a updated standard car.
According to Manfred Kremer the K3 incorporated no less than 100 modifications. Every visible part not required by the rules was changed.
The body was reinforced by Kevlar as early as 1979.

The mechnical parts and the tubular frame were more or less "stock" .

Rainer

[FLB]

Thank you!

[fines]

Stommelen did not drive a K3, instead the 'Moby Dick' Porsche. Being no expert on sports cars, I don't know if it was a Porsche chassis rebuilt or an 'original' chassis built by Giampiero (?) Moretti of momo fame. The report in 'MOTORSPORT aktuell' (18/83) says the accident happened on lap 94 at Turn 9, when at a speed variously described as anything between 155 and 190 mph the rear wing broke away. The car became airborne and went into the wall, bursting into flames which were soon extinguished, but Stommelen had broken his neck.

Now I seem to remember this car had a very small and spindly rear wing, which might have contributed to the accident. The car was owned by John Fitzpatrick at the time, who led the race in a K4 at the time of the accident, with David Hobbs co-driving. Fitz' retired on the spot, but Derek Bell, who was sharing the 'Moby Dick' with Stommelen, took over the K4 and won the race. A sad victory.

[FLB]

Thank you Fines!

That explains this citation from Steve Small's "The Guiness Complete Grand-Prix Who's Who" (1993), p.362:

"It was racing a Porsche 'replica' 935 in this category [IMSA] that he lost his life after crashing at Riverside in April 1983".

According to this site, it was JR/2 935/78, a Joest Replica.

http://www.classicsc...he/porsche5.htm


I had always thought it was a K3, and I was wrong, obviously.

[Dennis David]

That reminds me of the story regarding Redman's early testing of the 917. He called up Jo Siffert and asked him why he or the other top Porsche drivers were not testing the car and basically was told that Porsche didn't want to risk their top drivers.

[don hodgdon]

Originally posted by fines
The report in 'MOTORSPORT aktuell' (18/83) says the accident happened on lap 94 at Turn 9, when at a speed variously described as anything between 155 and 190 mph the rear wing broke away. The car became airborne and went into the wall, bursting into flames which were soon extinguished, but Stommelen had broken his neck.

Indeed it was at Turn 9. I was there that day, working as a photographer. It seems that the rear bodywork was not latched properly and came adrift as he made the high speed jog from the back straight into the entrance of 9. The car was pitched into the unprotected end of the concrete wall lining the outside of the turn and poor Stommelen never had a chance.

[Pedro Rodriquez]

Originally posted by Dave Ware
Yes, it was Herbert Mueller's 512. The race was an Interseries race.

Nice to hear that about Stommelen. Thanks, fines.

Dave

Hi

There are a sequence of photos covering Pedro Rodriquez fatal crash at Norisring in 1971.

If you click on this link: http://www.norisring.../1971/71_03.htm and scroll a bit down on the site, Rodriquez Ferrari 512 M will show up. A sad sight though, but there are pictures of nice cars racing hard as well.


Best regards!

[Steffen]

Originally posted by fines
Incidentally, I got to meet them both in 1982, during a TV production I was taking part in when only 15! (A story in itself, maybe I'll come back to that some time later)

Great glasses!

[Ray Bell]

I wonder why he didn't come back to that story?

[911]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I'm pretty sure Rolf's crash was at the final turn. The big 180 degree loop onto the start/finish straight. But I could be wrong! I've been wrong before - many times.....

From what I've read, I think this is true (Turn 9 @ Riverside - the 180 banked turn that leads onto the main straight).

[Fiorentina 1]

I was at Riverside when Stommelen got killed. I was 8. During that era, you were allowed in the pits without a pass. We were standing in the pits when he got in the car. My dad, who is a big sportscar fan of the 917 era, was telling me a story about him when he got in the car. I remember the glasses. Anyways, he drove away and we made our way to the back straight, maybe a 1/4 mile walk from the pits. We saw the cars go by for a few minutes, and then we heard a loud noise and saw a car flip. I remember seeing a lot of dust and pieces fly off. After 1/2 hour or so, maybe longer we made our way to the inside of turn 9 and saw the car sitting there. There was nothing left, just a shell. We didn't learn about his death until the next day or two by reading it in the L.A Times. From then on I have always read and studied about his career. Too bad, he died too early. I'm sure he would have had a great career in the 962s and maybe a Le mans win to go along with it.

From what I read latter on, the accident happened because rear body work got loose on the back staright and he lost it in the kink before Turn 9 and hit the wall in Turn 9 (last 180 before pits).

[Pedro 917]

Here are some pictures related to the Winkelhock crash.

Manfred at the wheel of the ill-fated Porsche 956 at Mosport :



Skid marks can be seen coming out of turn 2 :



and the sad remains of the car :




Welcome to this forum Pedro Rodriquez! Please note that Pedro's family name is Rodriguez with a g and not a q (which is rather a Portuguese spelling).

[Pedro Rodriquez]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Here are some pictures related to the Winkelhock crash.

Manfred at the wheel of the ill-fated Porsche 956 at Mosport :



Skid marks can be seen coming out of turn 2 :



and the sad remains of the car :




Welcome to this forum Pedro Rodriquez! Please note that Pedro's family name is Rodriguez with a g and not a q (which is rather a Portuguese spelling).

Hi

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum Pedro 917, I appreciated it. I mispelled the name intentionally, as there was only one Pedro Rodriguez to me....

The pictures of MW's horrific accident were new to me, and even though they are sad, they give a lot of information.

Best regards!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by 911


From what I've read, I think this is true (Turn 9 @ Riverside - the 180 banked turn that leads onto the main straight).

Not to just add, me too...but all accounts have the accident occurring at the end of the backstraight, near the kink entering turn 9.

[fines]

Originally posted by Steffen
Great glasses!

Where on earth did you find that one???

[... and for the anoraks: identify the race refered to by the GPI lap chart in the background... ]

[Steffen]

Originally posted by fines



Where on earth did you find that one???

A few month ago I started to capture the old video tapes of my uncle, and this TV show was on one of them.

[fines]

Without the glasses, I think I actually look like a young Donald Davidson! No wonder I ended up being the way I am...

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by fines


[... and for the anoraks: identify the race refered to by the GPI lap chart in the background... ]

Long Beach 1982

[chofar]

From the headlights, the car looks like a 962.
What subsits of the chassis might speaks to someone else. In that case the 962 had the pedal's axle behind the wheels axle while the 956 hadn't. Unfortunately it seems that all the right front part has dramatically moved backward under the impact.

[fausto]

It was a 962 for sure....

[GeorgeTheCar]

I was sitting on the outside of 2B at Mosport and the crash happened litterally in front of me.

THe crash did not seem as horrendous as others and there was no immediate concern for Winkelhock until the cleanup dragged on.

The cars are really fast through there and looking at the posted pictures and with my experience gained working on NASCAR energy management systems it is quite possible that there were similarities between Winkelhock's injuries and Earnhardt's. The main impact was in the right front about 20 degrees.

To be specific, the possibility of basalar skull damage or closed head injuries from the helmet striking the roll cage or both.

The issue of the aluminium roll cage does not seem to enter into the equation as the was not impacted on the roof. THe picture supplied seems to be after the extraction of the driver with anciallary damage due to extraction efforts.

Would Winklehock been saved by the HANS device? We will never know but I think there is at least a posibility.

The Stommelemn crash was much more extensive and I cannot comment about the role of the aluminium roll cage.

It is almost incomprehensible to understand how much stronger the cars are today.

[Pedro Rodriquez]

Originally posted by fausto
It was a 962 for sure....

Hi

I am not that sure, please take a look at this link: http://962.com/regis...6-115/index.htm

The MW car was for sure a Kremer entry, and I believe it is this chassis no. that were crashed, and rebuilt to a 962.

[fausto]

I said 962 because I remember the car, it's the same that won at Monza that year, so it'd possibly be a sort of 962 bodied, 956?

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by irvine99
Was Winkelhocks car a 956K or 962C? It seems that there are some internet sources writing about a 956K, some of a 962C...

irvine99

While its true that the chassis nos on 956/962 get very complex, I'm sure it was 962C-115 that MW died in, the Monza '85 winner. A few weeks later Bellof was killed in 956B-116, the Brun car. Whether the remains, of either one, were rebuilt into other cars I don't know, it would be a bit off if they were ...

[Gert]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


While its true that the chassis nos on 956/962 get very complex, I'm sure it was 962C-115 that MW died in, the Monza '85 winner. A few weeks later Bellof was killed in 956B-116, the Brun car. Whether the remains, of either one, were rebuilt into other cars I don't know, it would be a bit off if they were ...

You're right. It's the Monza winner, but the chassis nummber was 962-110.
962-115 was a Brun car.

[bigears]

Originally posted by GeorgeTheCar
Would Winklehock been saved by the HANS device? We will never know but I think there is at least a posibility.

The Stommelemn crash was much more extensive and I cannot comment about the role of the aluminium roll cage.

It is almost incomprehensible to understand how much stronger the cars are today.

Maybe this can help you?

http://tbk.fameflame...Wreckage_01.jpg

http://tbk.fameflame...Wreckage_02.jpg

Those are framegrabs from aftermath footage that aparantly (sp?) existed.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Without the glasses, I think I actually look like a young Donald Davidson! No wonder I ended up being the way I am...

Does that mean you will tell us a story about Doc McKenzie's beard?

[Pedro Rodriquez]

Originally posted by bigears


Maybe this can help you?

http://tbk.fameflame...Wreckage_01.jpg

http://tbk.fameflame...Wreckage_02.jpg

Those are framegrabs from aftermath footage that aparantly (sp?) existed.

Thanks for sad but informative framegrabs, bigears.

If I'm remembering this accident correctly, the seat broke on impact, and poor RS were thrown a bit around in the car. The HANS could for sure have helped him, but don't really now....

[tonicco]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Welcome to this forum Pedro Rodriquez! Please note that Pedro's family name is Rodriguez with a g and not a q (which is rather a Portuguese spelling).

I do not want to sound pedantic, but the correct Portuguese spelling is Rodrigues.

[jal43]

..and Rodriguez it's a typical spanish famili name, not portuguese

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by fines



Where on earth did you find that one???

[... and for the anoraks: identify the race refered to by the GPI lap chart in the background... ]

Congratulations Michael, you look pretty young, but you know a lot. PISA would appreciate some experts in Germany, what is your real profession? BTW: see your optician.

[T54]

I also was there at Riverside the day Rolf was killed. Indeed my safety equipment company had a display and sales booth just at the entry of the pits, where forgetfull racers could purchase last-minute forgotten equipment from fire-retardant underwear and suits to gloves to the latest GPA headwear. When the race started and as business was pretty much done, I went to watch the cars at my favorite spot, the entry of the fearsome "Turn 9" as its approach was the fastest point of the track, and one could clearly see who could take that turn really fast.

Late in the race, Rolf was thundering down the straight. There was a slight kink about 2/3rd down, with a pedestrian bridge over it. I was very familiar with it because I was often racing there with our 125 and 250cc GP Yamaha and Morbidelli bikes. It was slight but caused many aerodynamically unsettled cars to slide a few feet to the left, where there was a slight bump that made them jump slightly out of shape.
Rolf was a bit wide that lap as he had just passed a Mazda RX7 that was like 20MPH slower or more. When he hit the bump, I saw the rear body work move. Just as he whooshed past me, the bodywork on which the huge wing was affixed was now tearing itself off the car, with the brake lights still on as the wiring was still attached. The tail section then turned completely upside down, still attached to the car. The car went straight into the outer wall. It never turned, it went plain straight and hit with a very loud "bang" noise, then flipped on its side and dragged itself against the wall for quite a while until it was out of my sight as there were motorhomes blocking my view. Before this, I could clearly see that the driver was being thrown inside the car. I was told later that the seat rails had pulled from the seat and the main belt was attached in such a way to the unit that only the shoulder harness was still affixed around a cross tube of the roll cage.

Lots of people ran to get closer and watch, but I could not, I did not need to see more because I have seen enough of these things already and I could feel that this was going to be ugly. I just slowly walked to our display booth and helped taking it down without a word. My employees asked me what was wrong and I told them that I just saw a man die on front of me.
I heard the siren of the ambulance and had no illusions about the outcome. No one could take that much of a shunt and come out in one piece. May be today, but not then.

The car was indeed a Joest-built replica of the works Moby Dick long-tail, identical to that of the J David sponsored car driven that day by John Fitzpatrick.

This is one memory from Riverside that I'd rather forget, but it won't let go.

T54

[deangelis86]

Speaking of Manfred Winkelhock, there is a wonderful tribute article on the man himself in this months Motor Sport during which Marc Surer recealls enjoying some great times with Manfred, and also the events surrounding that fateful afternoon at Mosport.

[Fiorentina 1]

T54, thanks. That sheds some light on the tragedy.

Has anyone done a story on Rolf Stommelen lately; like Motorsport, or a Porsche magazine? And, is there a book about Rolf out there?