34 replies to this topic

[Witt]

I can't beleive that the bosses of Hockenhiem have agreed to do this. I feel sick at the thought of loosing Hockenheim, in it's current configuration. The new track will be ****, i won't be able to tell the difference between Hockenheim and Hungaroring.

From AtlasF1 news
Locals Clear Way for Hockenheim Facelift

Monday January 29th, 2001

A plan to give the Hockenheim motor racing track a major facelift looked set to go ahead on Monday after residents living near the German Grand Prix circuit said they backed a revamp.

Local residents groups voted overwhelmingly in favour of a plan to modernise the ageing track where British driver Jim Clark was killed in 1968, clearing the way for the company running Hockenheim to embark on a 95 million mark ($44.64 million) redevelopment.

"It's a big relief for us. We are proud that the local population is so clearly in favour of Hockenheim," Hartmut Tesseraux, spokesman for Hockenheimring GmbH said.

Hockenheim's contract to stage the German Grand Prix runs out after this year's event on July 29.

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone said the track needed to be brought into line with modern Grand Prix technology and safety requirements to secure its position as host.

The southwestern circuit has hardly changed since it first staged the German Grand Prix 31 years ago and Hockenheimring feared the track could lose the race to the Lausitzring, a brand new track 130 kms south of Berlin.

"I will get in touch with Bernie Ecclestone now and I hope that we can sign the promotion deal in February," Hockenheim mayor Gustav Schrank said.

Under the plan, the circuit will be shortened from 6.8 kms to four kms and its entire infrastructure will be refurbished and the number of seats will be increased. Work is expected to begin later in the year.

Baden-Wuerttemberg state premier Erwin Teufel promised Ecclestone around 30 million marks in grant-aid to help with the revamp late last year.

Ecclestone said he saw no reason why the contract to stage the Grand Prix could not be extended until 2008 if the redevelopment went ahead.

Security at the track came in for scrutiny after a Frenchman cut his way through a fence and crossed the track midway through last year's Grand Prix.

Is there someone we can write to, to express our anger? Perhaps if they proposed a better redeveloped circuit i wouldn't mind so much, but what they have proposed is just disgusting!

[Cociani]

It does seem just plain wrong doesn't it. I like the track the way it is. I only hope the leave some of those great straighaways.

[argos]

It seems to have happened to so many of the great tracks. The Nurburgring, Spa, Silverstone, Monza are all shadows of their former selves.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Except that the new Hockenheim will have a better passing zone than the existing hockenheim, and probably one of the best in F1

[NYR2119935]

2 edged sword

tradition or passing?

[Dents]

I'd like to see the proposed circuit diagram. As much as I all love the current layout, the proposed changes could be good. I'd like to see fast sweeping turns in F1 again.

[diosh]

BAH!

It's not just the tracks that are causing lack of passing! Can't they leave ANY of the circuts alone?!

Anyone got a link to a map of the proposed changes?

[Ross Stonefeld]

The tracks are very important when it comes to passing. There's never going to be any passing at Monaco no matter what you do to the cars. There's not even that much passing in the wet at most tracks

[Pete Stanley]

The powers that be in F1 have constantly used the phrase "better overtaking" as a weapon to disarm opponents.

They told us narrower cars and grooved tires would brng better overtaking.

They told us smaller engines would bring better overtaking.

They told us the endless chicanes would bring better overtaking.

They told us pitstops would bring better overtaking.

Why should be believe it this time?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Look at the track map, make your own decision this time

Its because Hockenheim cant afford to repave and update the entire 4 miles so they are using the money to make a better short track instead

[Nathan]

OK I have seen a proposed map...I explain it as best I can....

OK the first corner is the same, as you go down the first straight just before the first set of S-Bends is goes into a hairpin. It then cuts back to the other side of the cicuit a few hundred meters above the north part of the National Track. It then joins up with the second straight right where the last set od S-Bends start (Ayrton Senna Kurve). It basically ingores the Jim Clark Kurve and famed Ostkurve's.

Then to make the track a bit plonger, before heading into the slow turns just before the stadium section, they are adding 4 corners (3 fast, 1 slow), all sort of shaped like half of a box, that then goes into a short straight before the pre mentioned slow cornes. I think its called the Sud Jurve??

Basically the only tradition thing left will be the stadium section.

[Witt]

Ross, More overtaking? How do you figure? They're supposedly cutting the first straight in half, and adding a tight midfield with another 800m bendy straight. Looks like a mixture between Hungaroring and A1 Ring. IMO, a bad mix. Indy has proved that long straights are the key to overtaking. Hockenheim has three long straights followed by three heavy breaking points, and since the introduction of the narrow track cars in 98 has let us see some close racing along those straights. The way i see it, it's gonna be follow the leader, just like at every other track on the calendar.

[Ross Stonefeld]

With the exception of Barrichello this year how often do we actually see passing at Hockenheim? Other than Barrichello and maybe HHF there wasnt even much passing this year.

That hairpin towards the end of the lap on the new layout looks like a good passing zone

[Witt]

I disagree. The long straights let the cars stay closer together, forming a pack with the top 10 cars never seperated by more than 20 seconds. This is the closest thing F1 has to an Oval. It's on the tighter circuits when the cars get spread out more, and teams like Mclaren and Ferrari can show their dominance by opening up 1-2 minute leads on the rest of the field. At Hockenheim, they can't do that. The closeness of the cars allows more side by side racing, and i think more overtaking happens at Hockenheim than anywhere else.

If you've got a copy of the last three German GP's, have a close look at them. You'll notice that the midfield battles are extremely close, cars pulling beside each other and some great outbraking manouvers. This year's race appeared fantastic because the midfield qualified at the front due to the rain on Saturday, thus the camera man, who usually just leaves the cameras on the leaders, got to show us how good the racing can be at Hockenheim with the midfield at the front.

[Witt]

And another thing.

As the cars have minimal downforce, you really see the cars move around on the straights. They just look like they're on a knife edge, instead of the usual train tracks like at Barcelona or Hungary, etc. I think that's what the most exciting thing is about Hockenheim.

[Ned Dorsey]

They should art least keep the straight up to the first chicane, and work it back from there. They should also slow the first corner down a bit.

The old track i found a little boring to be honest. Rather than seeing the cars fly through sweeping bends we saw them looking rather shaky and going in straight lines for most of the time.

The track is unique, but far too long. I don't like it. Mind you, the proposed track better be a damn sight better.

[Enzoluis]

Is not matter of easy or not easy overtaking, IMHO the point is that Hockenheim was diferent, long strights, high speeds, fast cars took always advantage of this caracteristics, there was drivers specially fasts at Hockenheim like G. Berger, always protagonist at Hockenheim with any car.
May be races use to be boring, but where are we going to see the F1 cars at 350 Km/h?
In these way the WC will be 17 Magny Course around the world. IMO very much boring than 44 laps withou an overtake at the old Hockenheim.

[Gruff]

Personally I think track changes are the way to go, leaving tech regs on the cars static. This would give the techy boffs the chance to shine, while scientifically producing good tracks.

Over the past so many years we've had several good / modified tracks producing excellent racing. The tracks that don't tend to produce good racing I reckon are the 'traditional' tracks.

People remember races like Germany '00 and Italy '00 as being great races because compared to other races at the same venue they were great, but that is only because Monza and Hockenheim just stink of boredom. Similarly Silverstone has been processional of late, only the weather has sparked any interest.

However, a new breed of tracks / revamped like Nurburgring, Zeltweg, Sepang and Indy have provided great races every time they have been staged. If you want great racing then track modifications must be made. But preferably not in the same way as the ill-fated circular chicane that was the T1 circuit (Aida). Cos that was sh!te.

[Paste]

When I looked at the thread title for the first time, I thought it said "Hakkinen to be castrated". I checked this thread out of concern.

[JPMCrew]

Paste

[JPMCrew]

As someone said before, they always use "overtaking" as the ultimate excuse for changing things. If they want to improve overtaking, forget about changing a circuit, change the cars.

In my opinion, what's really sad about modifying Hockenheim, and any other of the classic circuits for that matter, is that the character of the track will be changed forever. Gone will be the days when the German GP represented a different type of racing than you see at other tracks.

Why don't they just build copycat tracks for all the GP's if they care so little about racing diversity and track character?

Hockenheim was Senna's favorite track, that's kind of sad too.

[Dimo]

Originally posted by Paste
When I looked at the thread title for the first time, I thought it said "Hakkinen to be castrated". I checked this thread out of concern.

:lol:

Can you imagine what Erja's face would look like then? She always wears an expression that makes you think she just finished eating a crate of lemons as it is...

[The RedBaron]

Looks pretty lifeless to me....almost an Oval in it's present state. I don't agree it being radically shortened but I don't mind reconfiguration adding some slower corners
as opposed to chicanes.





The current layout.....I'm searching for the proposed changes.
__________________

[mtl'78]

The incredible strightaways often give us the top speeds of the season. Last year I remember seeing Alesi above 350km/h!

I can understand wanting to add to the spectator areas but losing those long straights would destroy a very unique facet of F1. There are no other tracks like Hockenheim. The drivers use the least amount of downforce, despite having to negotiate the narrow and twisty stadium section as well as a rare 1st corner that is taken at high speed. I can only think of Silverstone as the other. That's a real shame. Also the last two seasons have seen great German GP's there IMO. Lost of overtaking, lots of drama and unexpected results. So why do we have to change what's working?

Montreal is a perfect example of a boring track making for above average races. All it is, is straights, hairpins and chicanes, yet in the age of grooved tyres, these tracks make for the best overtaking opportunities. The only way to pass for position is to underbrake. Gone are the days of drafting through corners and passing on the exit or around the outside. The only possible way to draft are through long straight sections like in Hockenheim, Spa, Indy and to a lesser extent Montreal. But even then, they can't follow close enough through the preceeding corner to get a good tow down the straight, they need a hairpin or slow corner preceeding the straight.

So I'm for more "boring" looking tracks. Long and fast corners, though pretty and exciting to watch, are the enemy of overtaking with these cars.

[Pete Stanley]

Can't afford to repave the whole track? Then don't repave it. Mosport hasn't been repaved since the '60s. ALMS staged a pretty good race there last year, and they did it without chopping off two-thirds of that historic circut.

Actually, if I were in charge, I'd take out the chicanes at Hockenheim, but what do I know?

[jc_nl]

I thought Mosport was completely renovated before last years ALMS race?

You can find an map of the new Hockenheim track at:

http://www.hockenhei...dern/index.html

(For some odd reason they didn't put it on the english site)

[Pete Stanley]

From my understanding they improved some safety stuff: barriers, fences, that sort of thing. And they improved line-of-sight around a particularly nasty bend. But the track itself was untouched.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I just checked out the link. I'm horrified. It's like watching all of those NASCAR races at Watkins Glen where they don't even go into the "Boot" section. Aaaahgh!

[jc_nl]

To see what they have changed to Mosport just go to their site. there is a section about the changes. The basic lay-out wasn't changed but they had to widen the track to the FIA standard of 12 meters.

[The RedBaron]

The proposed Hocekenheim track looks like a go-kart track to me.....shame, they have chopped more than half of it away!!!

[diosh]

The proposed track is... different. Still, i don't want them to touch it, it's completely different and unique from any of the other high downforce circuts, and makes a nice change from all the other tracks that bernies ruined over the years.

[Ned Dorsey]

The proposed track doesn't look too bad. Overtaking will definately be possible ( i'd hardly classify it as a hungaroring ).

Better yet, German fans will see their hero passing the stadiums twice as many times

We will still have Monza, which will never be changed.

[Xodiac]

Monza was changed last year and we saw what happened there.
Big accident at the first chicane, nothing new I guess.

Hockenheim will be like Silverstone. I say take out the chicanes! Let them race.

Will the Superbike guys have to race on the new circuit also?

[tony]

Someone in an earlier post said Hockenheim was rather boring and that it was almost like an oval. It is almost like an oval and the thing that makes Hockenheim so special are the speeds reached on the straights. I know alot of people hate on here hate oval racing. I hate slow ovals, but seeing the Michigan 500 CART race really had an impact on me. Seeing cars on the straight and well over 250+ mph was really impressive. The slow smaller ovals in CART are very boring. There are a few things that impress me and most others in motorsports...one is sheer speed. Others are braking and driving skill required to master a challenging road course. Most road courses do not provide much in the way of speed. On the fastest F1 track the cars might reach 220 mph for a split second. It seems that what F1 needs is one superspeedway, oval race. This would be pretty amazing..there's lot's of passin, and you can see nearly the entire track. Don't get me wrong...I love great road courses, Spa, Susuka, etc....but adding just one superspeedway race to the F1 circuit would be interesting. Is Tony George listening....

[Ned Dorsey]

Shut up tony.

Seriously though, oval racing is pathetic. It is boring and unexciting, and certainly not the best way to parade billions of dollars worth of development.

[BuzzingHornet]

I thought the title of this thread was 'Hakkinen to be castrated'