76 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

On the 28th of March 1954, Artie Mitchell entered his '51 Oldsmobile in the NASCAR Grand National race at the Oglethorpe Speedway in Savannah, Georgia, which was his home track. He only completed 9 laps before being black flagged, presumably for being too slow. He never took part in another NASCAR race.

Are there many other examples of where a driver has been flagged and instructed to retire due to being too slow?

[ensign14]

One that immediately springs to mind is Chet Fillip in the 1983 Indy 500. He had only qualified because of bad weather - he took an average of 183mph on a slow weekend when pole was over 200, with many faster cars holding off till the next weekend and better conditions, only rain basically took away most of the time - and lasted 10 laps before being hauled off track.

[Altitude]

I know that Milka Duno was warned about her lack of speed in Indycar last season. I believe that her team withdrew her in at least one race, but im not sure if she was black flagged.

[AleSi]

I know that Milka Duno was warned about her lack of speed in Indycar last season. I believe that her team withdrew her in at least one race, but im not sure if she was black flagged.

Yes, she was black flagged several times at the road circuits. She started the race, but after ten laps or so, when leaders was coming, she was black flagged.

[Geoff E]

Al Pease, 1969 Canadian GP http://www.f1rejects...ease/index.html

[Vitesse2]

IIRC Enzo Fiermonte - former boxer turned actor - had to be "persuaded" that it would be better if he didn't start in the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup. A Maserati V8RI probably wasn't the wisest choice for a novice driver and he was apparently painfully slow in practice, spinning several times. The car was eventually driven by Wilbur Shaw.

AFAIK Fiermonte never did race, but he did have a bit part in Frankenheimer's "Grand Prix".

[David McKinney]

I believe Fiermonte did race the car, in an ARCA event at Roosevelt Raceway on 25 September 1937, stalling at the start, then brushing with another car before handing the wheel to George Rand, who carried on to win

[Vitesse2]

I believe Fiermonte did race the car, in an ARCA event at Roosevelt Raceway on 25 September 1937, stalling at the start, then brushing with another car before handing the wheel to George Rand, who carried on to win

*excavates Rueter book from pile by desk*

I'd forgotten that. You are indeed correct, although he'd only been allowed to start after some of the other drivers had pleaded with the organizers on his behalf, arguing he'd put in a lot of practice since July! But even then, the handover to Rand was pre-arranged: he was only to be allowed to do half the race at most and it seems they reserved the right to black flag him before that if he proved troublesome. No mention of hitting another car, but he did apparently hit a straw bale.

Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind, given that the only other "real" racing cars were a couple of old Bugattis which Miles Collier managed to beat with an MG and Lem Ladd's "Old Gray Mare".

[JMH]

Would the Miles Collier car have been his ex Le Mans PA1667? I ask as I've not not got that date & race recorded for the car. Maybe it was a different MG?

JH

[ERault]

Would the Miles Collier car have been his ex Le Mans PA1667? I ask as I've not not got that date & race recorded for the car. Maybe it was a different MG?

JH

Yep ! Photo evidence in Finn's "American Road Racing - the 1930s".

[Vitesse2]

Yep ! Photo evidence in Finn's "American Road Racing - the 1930s".

Rueter's text doesn't make it clear, but he appears to have been third overall behind Rand and Ladd.

[JMH]

Thanks chaps - don't you just love the info available on this forum"

[Graham Clayton]

Japanese driver Takuma Koga was black flagged for being too slow during the 2005 NAPA 200 NASCAR West Series race at Douglas County Speedway at Roseburg, Oregon on the 17th of September 2005. He had completed 175 laps when black flagged, with the car ahead of him having completed 191 laps. Koga had qualified 18th and last on the grid, which probably shows his lack of speed.

[Rob G]

There have been numerous NASCAR drivers who have either been black-flagged for being too slow, or pulled themselves off the track just before being black-flagged for being too slow. However, their excuse would have been that the car had been wrecked earlier and half of it was now either missing or strapped together with bungee cords and tape.

Edited by Rob G, 23 February 2012 - 18:35.

[richie]

Judy Lyons in the Derek Bell Trophy is a candidate for a black flag. Its certainly not the car but the driver. Just because the family take 3 cars to the race dosen't mean she's an exception.

She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.

[opplock]

She is getting quicker. In 2010 she finally lapped the Brands GP circuit quicker than I did in 1991 (driving a 1600cc Caterham). During flag training at Brands on Sunday we were told to use a white flag for any car travelling at less than racing speed. My reply was "so we need white flags on permanent display when Judy Lyons is racing".

[HeskethBoy]

Not quite being 'black-flagged" - but a chap tuned up at Surfers Paradise International Raceway in the early 1980's with a new driving suit, helmet and a very shiny Formula Ford. He went out for the first practise session to be observed for his licence, and was way, way off the pace.
When he called into the Tower to see what they thought, he was asked if he was having any problems with the car etc as it was so slow - relative to the rest of the field.
He commented that everyone was so fast, that we was spending most of his time watching mirrors and keeping out of harm's way.
Next question - how fast have you gone when driving alone, in private practise etc.? Answer - I hadn't driven the car until today.
Oh - well how competitive have you been driving any other car in either private practise or sprints? Answer - This is my first time ever on a Race Track.
So - after some more talking - he decided not to continue that day - and was never seen again.
I always thought it was a shame that he aimed so high - first ever event being a Round of the Driver to Europe Series - perhaps a more low-key start, and he could have learned and kept on going.

[Hank the Deuce]

I seem to recall during one of the Bathurst 1000's of the early-mid 80's, one of the car and driver combo's from what was referred to as the "Winton" end of pit lane persisted in trundling around at a miserably slow pace, trailing smoke... said car was shown the black flag on several occasions, but ignored it, and subsequently, the track marshalls noted its presence with the white flags, signifying a slow-moving service vehicle...

[stevewf1]

Back in the mid '80s, Dale Coyne drove in a few CART races and was always way off the pace. Don't know if he was ever black-flagged, though.

Edited by stevewf1, 24 February 2012 - 13:38.

[CarlRabbidge]

Judy Lyons in the Derek Bell Trophy is a candidate for a black flag. Its certainly not the car but the driver. Just because the family take 3 cars to the race dosen't mean she's an exception.

She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.

Had I been a senoir official with the authority to do so then I think she would have at Ruapuna this year

[rms]

To all the "critics" of Judy Lyons - she is out there doing it.
The answer to critics is "get out there and show me how it is done in an F5000 or F1"

In other words "put up or shut up"

[ensign14]

OK, give me a couple of million quid and I will.

[DogEarred]

I don't know if anyone with closer involvement can confirm this but I get the distinct impression that in Indycar races, slower runners are sometimes 'invited' to suffer handling problems & retire from the race, thus saving the embarrassment of being black flagged.

Edited by DogEarred, 25 February 2012 - 09:45.

[275 GTB-4]

She is getting quicker. In 2010 she finally lapped the Brands GP circuit quicker than I did in 1991 (driving a 1600cc Caterham). During flag training at Brands on Sunday we were told to use a white flag for any car travelling at less than racing speed. My reply was "so we need white flags on permanent display when Judy Lyons is racing".

and she deserves special attention from Flag Marshals for her contribution to Historic Racing....end of story!

However, other also rans can be a menace on track

[opplock]

To all the "critics" of Judy Lyons - she is out there doing it.
The answer to critics is "get out there and show me how it is done in an F5000 or F1"

In other words "put up or shut up"

I did race about 20 years ago and soon convinced myself that I would be a mobile chicane in such cars. If I had ever the money to run an F1 or F5000 car I would put a competitive driver in it and enjoy seeing it being used properly.

[richie]

I did race about 20 years ago and soon convinced myself that I would be a mobile chicane in such cars. If I had ever the money to run an F1 or F5000 car I would put a competitive driver in it and enjoy seeing it being used properly.

I agree. She's a risk to other drivers without a doubt, even if money talks. An ex F5000 driver agreed with me she's a liability.

[RacingCompagniet]

I agree. She's a risk to other drivers without a doubt, even if money talks. An ex F5000 driver agreed with me she's a liability.

She is slow, but she keeps track of where the others are and gets out of the way when they approach. Risks are much higher in races where high-end lightweight E-types are mixed with small/old/slow touring cars, like in the Nürburgring Marathon or Spa 6-hours.

[D-Type]

That's the nature of sports/touring car racing. Picture the Mulsanne in, say, 1955 with a Ferrari passing a Porsche that is passing a DB Panhard with a 5o km/hr speed differentuial between each. The same scenario applies 30 years either side - simply change the makes of car. Single seater "formula" races are different - there shouldn't be that much difference between the front runners and the back of the grid.
In historic racing the differences are greater as there is a vast differential between the ability and commitment of the top drivers and the rest and between 'period' and 'developed' cars.

[RacingCompagniet]

That's the nature of sports/touring car racing. Picture the Mulsanne in, say, 1955 with a Ferrari passing a Porsche that is passing a DB Panhard with a 5o km/hr speed differentuial between each. The same scenario applies 30 years either side - simply change the makes of car. Single seater "formula" races are different - there shouldn't be that much difference between the front runners and the back of the grid.
In historic racing the differences are greater as there is a vast differential between the ability and commitment of the top drivers and the rest and between 'period' and 'developed' cars.

All I wanted to say is that I am getting fed up with all the bickering about the speed of Ms Lyons (in particular since it seems to be coming from the 'experts' on the other side of the armco) while at the same time it is considered fully acceptable with vast differences in speed in other classes / races without anyone complaining.

[southcoast]

Judy Lyons in the Derek Bell Trophy is a candidate for a black flag. Its certainly not the car but the driver. Just because the family take 3 cars to the race dosen't mean she's an exception.

She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.

As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I KNEW there would be a reference to Judy Lyons !

Edited by southcoast, 27 February 2012 - 15:43.

[richie]

She is slow, but she keeps track of where the others are and gets out of the way when they approach. Risks are much higher in races where high-end lightweight E-types are mixed with small/old/slow touring cars, like in the Nürburgring Marathon or Spa 6-hours.

Glad she's using her wing mirrors.

"she is out there doing it" - but why? You could drive faster in an average road car.

[Rob Ryder]

Glad she's using her wing mirrors.

"she is out there doing it" - but why? You could drive faster in an average road car.

She is out there because SHE ENJOYS IT!

Maybe Frank will give her a run in his/their new FW07...

Edited by Rob Ryder, 01 March 2012 - 19:17.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

I know nothing of Judy Lyons except what I'm reading in this very thread. That she's dead slow seems to be a given and she's taking quite a slagging. However, to me, the important question to ask is, 'Is she competent?' You can have competence and be quick. You can display competence and be...Judy Lyons?

If she has neither speed nor competence, well, then...

[Thundersports]

I've commented before about the lady historic racing car driver; rms you clearly know nothing about racing to make such a stupid comment. I would guess if 50% of the people who post here had a days testing they would be signifactly quicker. As saying she "knows where other people are on the track" total crap if your "on it" in your FW08 at Brands going through dingle dell your going to have a problem if you encounter her crawling about. Her mirrors can't be of any use since she is that slow that the leaders/midfielders will be coming at you at such a pace you wouldn't see them providing your looking forward as well!

Edited by Thundersport, 02 March 2012 - 00:39.

[rms]

rms you clearly know nothing about racing to make such a stupid comment.

I see that the superiority attitude is alive and well and with a fair amount of ignorance !!

[elansprint72]

... and if (say) three others who drive at the same "demonstration" pace as the lady in question were to enter the Derek Bell races, what then?

Edited by elansprint72, 02 March 2012 - 11:53.

[Muskrat]

This is great I love it when someone thta is clearly a hazard to other is finally outed.

There is doing it for the fun of it, and then being plain dangerous and the faster the car you are racing the more you have to look at yourself and think I should not be out here (not co I don't have the cash (I clearly do) - but because I could cause a nasty crash and get other injured).

Any youtubes of how slow she is?

[Muskrat]

1 min research - http://www.lolaherit...255/255_old.htm

Race 1 pole = 55 sec, this well off lady 1:21 - ER THAT IS 49% slower than Pole!!

Race 2 in only an 8 lap (under 1 min laps for faster cars), lapped TWICE!!!

This is just wrong and is clearly Bloody Dangerous in such F1 / F5000 spec cars.

[rallen]

Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?

[Derwent Motorsport]

As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?

[Tim Murray]

Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?

Yes indeed - here's Graham's own account, from Life At The Limit:

Even today, when I go to address a motoring club there's always someone with a good memory in the audience who wants to put the World Champion in his place and asks, 'Do you remember the occasion at Brands Hatch in 1956 when you spun four times on four consecutive laps?' If I ever happen to forget it there will be plenty of people around ready to remind me. Eventually I got black-flagged by the RAC steward in charge of the meeting and had to come in. I asked, 'Can't I continue slowly?' And he said, 'No, there must be something wrong with the car for you to keep spinning like that, and it would be dangerous to continue.' I was bitterly disappointed, but I had to retire.

[Muskrat]

As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?

She should get a Horse.

[Robin Fairservice]

Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?

My memory is Brands Hatch with a Lotus 7 that became known as the Yellow Peril.

[Robin Fairservice]

Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?

My memory is Brands Hatch with a Lotus 7 that became known as the Yellow Peril.

[Tim Murray]

The 'Yellow Peril' was an XI, not a Seven, but that was indeed the car involved in the black flag incident.

[longhorn]

Not quite on topic but going slowly was part of the problem. So, going back a bit further, in the 1955 TT at Dundrod, the Vicomte de Barry driving a 3L Mercedes Gullwing coupe was blackflagged for alleged unsafe driving. Despite being completely out of his depth the regs allowed him to line up with the large capacity cars for the Le Mans start & he then caused a roadblock to the faster cars trying to come through. It all came to a head at Deer's Leap on the second lap when Mayers' Cooper tried to get past & hit a stone gatepost. Smyth's Connaught then hit the wreckage. Both drivers were killed & a number of others had miraculous escapes from the ensuing accident including Wharton, Russell & Macklin.

Coming close after Le Mans, Macklin then retired from racing.

Deer's Leap hasn't changed much as can be seen from recent Ulster GP Youtube videos .

Edited by longhorn, 02 March 2012 - 20:08.

[richie]

As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?

Here here; its hardly entertainment for spectators to see someone trundling around being lapped so often. She's not even featured in the family line up of racing pictures, probably too embarrassing for husband and son, who are the racers.

[elansprint72]

As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?

A way out of this might be if she were to be allowed to give demonstration runs during the lunch break- then she would not have to look in her mirrors and the racers would not have to try to calculate when they might come up on a near-motionless object.
I think that if the rules of racing were to be strictly adhered to, a white flag would have to be shown to all approaching cars.

[Frank S]

It's down to the race organizers: no matter what she wants from it, they must want something enough to allow her to continue. Surely they have the right, power, and obligation to stop it?

[HiRich]

Given that we're talking about amateur historic racing, surely the other drivers have the first say?

The one time I've seen the 5000s (at the first Croft Historic), the other 8-odd drivers seemed to appreciate her subsidising their racing (and the prime garage space they had managed to negotiate). If the other drivers are happy, who are we to complain? If they are unhappy, they could have a quiet word in Mike & Judy's ear and suggest it's time to step down. Maybe when the series becomes more popular and competitive that will happen. And maybe they prefer a friendly mobile chicane to recruiting certain win-at-all-costs drivers who would crash into them for the sake of a £5 glass coaster.

At the amateur level, it's far better if they self-regulate.