Black-flagged for being too slow
#1
Posted 01 August 2011 - 06:36
Are there many other examples of where a driver has been flagged and instructed to retire due to being too slow?
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#2
Posted 01 August 2011 - 06:43
#3
Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:07
#4
Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:24
I know that Milka Duno was warned about her lack of speed in Indycar last season. I believe that her team withdrew her in at least one race, but im not sure if she was black flagged.
Yes, she was black flagged several times at the road circuits. She started the race, but after ten laps or so, when leaders was coming, she was black flagged.
#6
Posted 01 August 2011 - 11:15
AFAIK Fiermonte never did race, but he did have a bit part in Frankenheimer's "Grand Prix".
#7
Posted 01 August 2011 - 13:52
#8
Posted 01 August 2011 - 14:28
*excavates Rueter book from pile by desk*I believe Fiermonte did race the car, in an ARCA event at Roosevelt Raceway on 25 September 1937, stalling at the start, then brushing with another car before handing the wheel to George Rand, who carried on to win
I'd forgotten that. You are indeed correct, although he'd only been allowed to start after some of the other drivers had pleaded with the organizers on his behalf, arguing he'd put in a lot of practice since July! But even then, the handover to Rand was pre-arranged: he was only to be allowed to do half the race at most and it seems they reserved the right to black flag him before that if he proved troublesome. No mention of hitting another car, but he did apparently hit a straw bale.
Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind, given that the only other "real" racing cars were a couple of old Bugattis which Miles Collier managed to beat with an MG and Lem Ladd's "Old Gray Mare".
#9
Posted 01 August 2011 - 19:54
JH
#10
Posted 01 August 2011 - 20:27
Would the Miles Collier car have been his ex Le Mans PA1667? I ask as I've not not got that date & race recorded for the car. Maybe it was a different MG?
JH
Yep ! Photo evidence in Finn's "American Road Racing - the 1930s".
#11
Posted 01 August 2011 - 20:51
Rueter's text doesn't make it clear, but he appears to have been third overall behind Rand and Ladd.Yep ! Photo evidence in Finn's "American Road Racing - the 1930s".
#12
Posted 02 August 2011 - 21:03
#13
Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:49
#14
Posted 23 February 2012 - 18:34
Edited by Rob G, 23 February 2012 - 18:35.
#15
Posted 23 February 2012 - 21:44
She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.
#16
Posted 23 February 2012 - 21:52
#17
Posted 24 February 2012 - 00:04
When he called into the Tower to see what they thought, he was asked if he was having any problems with the car etc as it was so slow - relative to the rest of the field.
He commented that everyone was so fast, that we was spending most of his time watching mirrors and keeping out of harm's way.
Next question - how fast have you gone when driving alone, in private practise etc.? Answer - I hadn't driven the car until today.
Oh - well how competitive have you been driving any other car in either private practise or sprints? Answer - This is my first time ever on a Race Track.
So - after some more talking - he decided not to continue that day - and was never seen again.
I always thought it was a shame that he aimed so high - first ever event being a Round of the Driver to Europe Series - perhaps a more low-key start, and he could have learned and kept on going.
#18
Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:07
#19
Posted 24 February 2012 - 13:37
Edited by stevewf1, 24 February 2012 - 13:38.
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#20
Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:31
Judy Lyons in the Derek Bell Trophy is a candidate for a black flag. Its certainly not the car but the driver. Just because the family take 3 cars to the race dosen't mean she's an exception.
She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.
Had I been a senoir official with the authority to do so then I think she would have at Ruapuna this year
#21
Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:17
The answer to critics is "get out there and show me how it is done in an F5000 or F1"
In other words "put up or shut up"
#22
Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:54
#23
Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:44
Edited by DogEarred, 25 February 2012 - 09:45.
#24
Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:12
She is getting quicker. In 2010 she finally lapped the Brands GP circuit quicker than I did in 1991 (driving a 1600cc Caterham). During flag training at Brands on Sunday we were told to use a white flag for any car travelling at less than racing speed. My reply was "so we need white flags on permanent display when Judy Lyons is racing".
and she deserves special attention from Flag Marshals for her contribution to Historic Racing....end of story!
However, other also rans can be a menace on track
#25
Posted 25 February 2012 - 16:08
To all the "critics" of Judy Lyons - she is out there doing it.
The answer to critics is "get out there and show me how it is done in an F5000 or F1"
In other words "put up or shut up"
I did race about 20 years ago and soon convinced myself that I would be a mobile chicane in such cars. If I had ever the money to run an F1 or F5000 car I would put a competitive driver in it and enjoy seeing it being used properly.
#26
Posted 25 February 2012 - 22:50
I did race about 20 years ago and soon convinced myself that I would be a mobile chicane in such cars. If I had ever the money to run an F1 or F5000 car I would put a competitive driver in it and enjoy seeing it being used properly.
I agree. She's a risk to other drivers without a doubt, even if money talks. An ex F5000 driver agreed with me she's a liability.
#27
Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:41
I agree. She's a risk to other drivers without a doubt, even if money talks. An ex F5000 driver agreed with me she's a liability.
She is slow, but she keeps track of where the others are and gets out of the way when they approach. Risks are much higher in races where high-end lightweight E-types are mixed with small/old/slow touring cars, like in the Nürburgring Marathon or Spa 6-hours.
#28
Posted 27 February 2012 - 14:49
In historic racing the differences are greater as there is a vast differential between the ability and commitment of the top drivers and the rest and between 'period' and 'developed' cars.
#29
Posted 27 February 2012 - 15:06
All I wanted to say is that I am getting fed up with all the bickering about the speed of Ms Lyons (in particular since it seems to be coming from the 'experts' on the other side of the armco) while at the same time it is considered fully acceptable with vast differences in speed in other classes / races without anyone complaining.That's the nature of sports/touring car racing. Picture the Mulsanne in, say, 1955 with a Ferrari passing a Porsche that is passing a DB Panhard with a 5o km/hr speed differentuial between each. The same scenario applies 30 years either side - simply change the makes of car. Single seater "formula" races are different - there shouldn't be that much difference between the front runners and the back of the grid.
In historic racing the differences are greater as there is a vast differential between the ability and commitment of the top drivers and the rest and between 'period' and 'developed' cars.
#30
Posted 27 February 2012 - 15:42
Judy Lyons in the Derek Bell Trophy is a candidate for a black flag. Its certainly not the car but the driver. Just because the family take 3 cars to the race dosen't mean she's an exception.
She's a mobile road block. Puts other drivers at risk.
As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I KNEW there would be a reference to Judy Lyons !
Edited by southcoast, 27 February 2012 - 15:43.
#31
Posted 27 February 2012 - 22:45
She is slow, but she keeps track of where the others are and gets out of the way when they approach. Risks are much higher in races where high-end lightweight E-types are mixed with small/old/slow touring cars, like in the Nürburgring Marathon or Spa 6-hours.
Glad she's using her wing mirrors.
"she is out there doing it" - but why? You could drive faster in an average road car.
#32
Posted 01 March 2012 - 19:11
She is out there because SHE ENJOYS IT!Glad she's using her wing mirrors.
"she is out there doing it" - but why? You could drive faster in an average road car.
Maybe Frank will give her a run in his/their new FW07...
Edited by Rob Ryder, 01 March 2012 - 19:17.
#33
Posted 02 March 2012 - 00:21
If she has neither speed nor competence, well, then...
#34
Posted 02 March 2012 - 00:33
Edited by Thundersport, 02 March 2012 - 00:39.
#35
Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:42
rms you clearly know nothing about racing to make such a stupid comment.
I see that the superiority attitude is alive and well and with a fair amount of ignorance !!
#36
Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:57
Edited by elansprint72, 02 March 2012 - 11:53.
#37
Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:44
There is doing it for the fun of it, and then being plain dangerous and the faster the car you are racing the more you have to look at yourself and think I should not be out here (not co I don't have the cash (I clearly do) - but because I could cause a nasty crash and get other injured).
Any youtubes of how slow she is?
#38
Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:58
Race 1 pole = 55 sec, this well off lady 1:21 - ER THAT IS 49% slower than Pole!!
Race 2 in only an 8 lap (under 1 min laps for faster cars), lapped TWICE!!!
This is just wrong and is clearly Bloody Dangerous in such F1 / F5000 spec cars.
#39
Posted 02 March 2012 - 14:12
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#40
Posted 02 March 2012 - 14:19
#41
Posted 02 March 2012 - 14:33
Yes indeed - here's Graham's own account, from Life At The Limit:Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?
Even today, when I go to address a motoring club there's always someone with a good memory in the audience who wants to put the World Champion in his place and asks, 'Do you remember the occasion at Brands Hatch in 1956 when you spun four times on four consecutive laps?' If I ever happen to forget it there will be plenty of people around ready to remind me. Eventually I got black-flagged by the RAC steward in charge of the meeting and had to come in. I asked, 'Can't I continue slowly?' And he said, 'No, there must be something wrong with the car for you to keep spinning like that, and it would be dangerous to continue.' I was bitterly disappointed, but I had to retire.
#42
Posted 02 March 2012 - 14:39
She should get a Horse.As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?
#43
Posted 02 March 2012 - 16:10
Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?
My memory is Brands Hatch with a Lotus 7 that became known as the Yellow Peril.
#44
Posted 02 March 2012 - 16:10
Wasn't Graham Hill black flagged once for spinning a few times? Think I read that somewhere here and wasn't sure if it was for spins or inexpereince - I believe it was in his early carreer?
My memory is Brands Hatch with a Lotus 7 that became known as the Yellow Peril.
#45
Posted 02 March 2012 - 17:04
#46
Posted 02 March 2012 - 17:36
Coming close after Le Mans, Macklin then retired from racing.
Deer's Leap hasn't changed much as can be seen from recent Ulster GP Youtube videos .
Edited by longhorn, 02 March 2012 - 20:08.
#47
Posted 02 March 2012 - 19:51
As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?
Here here; its hardly entertainment for spectators to see someone trundling around being lapped so often. She's not even featured in the family line up of racing pictures, probably too embarrassing for husband and son, who are the racers.
#48
Posted 03 March 2012 - 20:42
As regards Judy, quite apart from her being a danger, I can't see what pleasure she gets from it, particularly if she has to spend most of the time looking in her mirrors, she is not actually racing anyone. She must realise what the spectators think of her. With their money surely she could just hire a circuit for a day and drive round at her own pace without danger to anyone else?
A way out of this might be if she were to be allowed to give demonstration runs during the lunch break- then she would not have to look in her mirrors and the racers would not have to try to calculate when they might come up on a near-motionless object.
I think that if the rules of racing were to be strictly adhered to, a white flag would have to be shown to all approaching cars.
#49
Posted 03 March 2012 - 21:10
#50
Posted 04 March 2012 - 13:05
The one time I've seen the 5000s (at the first Croft Historic), the other 8-odd drivers seemed to appreciate her subsidising their racing (and the prime garage space they had managed to negotiate). If the other drivers are happy, who are we to complain? If they are unhappy, they could have a quiet word in Mike & Judy's ear and suggest it's time to step down. Maybe when the series becomes more popular and competitive that will happen. And maybe they prefer a friendly mobile chicane to recruiting certain win-at-all-costs drivers who would crash into them for the sake of a £5 glass coaster.
At the amateur level, it's far better if they self-regulate.