197 replies to this topic

[Afterburner]

Right, seeing as a good majority of the latest posts in the Vettel thread seem to be about the man responsible for the race-winning RB5, RB6, and RB7 F1 cars, I think it's time that Adrian Newey gets a thread dedicated to his career in F1 and the cars he's designed. I searched the forum for a pre-existing thread, but couldn't find one--if the mods think that this is unneeded or could better fit within another thread, then by all means, close it down.

Snippets of Adrian Newey's biography at Red Bull's official website, just to brief everyone:

During 30 years in motorsport Adrian Newey has developed something of a legend. He’s heralded as an original thinker, a maverick designer, the heir to the legacy of Colin Chapman and a softly-spoken genius. But the thing he’s best known for is winning.

His thesis on the science of ground-effect in aerodynamics attracted the attention of the motor racing community and in 1980, shortly after graduation from Southampton University, Newey began working for the Fittipaldi F1 team. He soon moved to March, beginning work as a race engineer in Formula 2 before moving on to design. While Newey is first and foremost regarded as a Formula One designer, his early successes came in American racing: his first sports car design for March won the IMSA’s GTP class in 1983 and 1984, though Adrian had already moved to March’s IndyCar project. His first effort, the March 85C, won both the Championship and the Indy 500, while his follow-up model won the Championship in 1986 and the Indy 500 in both ’86 and ‘87.

Newey briefly left March to work for Carl Haas, first at the FORCE F1 team and latterly back in IndyCar as a race engineer for Mario Andretti. It was a short-lived soujourn and Newey soon returned to March, masterminding the constructor’s return to F1, as technical director. He moved on to Williams at the end of 1990 and began a decade in which everything he touched turned to extremely rapid gold. In partnership with Patrick Head, Newey’s first car for Williams won seven races in 1991; its successors won five Constructors’ titles in the next six years, made world champions of Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve, gifted a fourth title to Alain Prost and introduced a callow youth by the name of David Coulthard to the top step of the podium. When Newey departed Williams for fresh challenges at McLaren, he confirmed his prowess with three further titles, rounding off the decade with the 1998 Constructors’ title and two world championships for Mika Hakkinen.

Newey’s McLarens continued to win races in the 21st Century, taking several championships down to the wire and never failing to win individual grands prix. His final effort in 2005 won ten of the season’s 19 races but somehow managed to dodge both titles. In search of a new challenge Adrian moved on once again, to Red Bull Racing, the attraction of which lay in the potential to create a winning team virtually from scratch.

...

It’s a widely-held belief that Adrian does his best work whenever F1 undergoes one of its periodic regulatory upheavals, moving development away from number crunching and briefly allowing creativity and intuition to come back to the fore. 2009 demonstrated that in ample measure: Red Bull Racing’s breakthrough season had Adrian’s RB5 taking five pole positions and score six victories.

...

The idea of a clean sheet of paper isn’t just a metaphor. Despite the non-stop technological advancement of F1, Adrian still likes to use the drawing board rather than a supercomputer when he’s feeling creative. Away from the office he indulges a passion for classic sports cars, as both a keen collector and amateur racer.

Read his full biography here.

So, what's the best-looking Newey-designed car? Your personal favourite car designed by him? Discuss.

[SCUDmissile]

McLaren MP4 20, coming from a Ferrari fan.

[Wi000]

I support this thread Adrian Newey deserves it

[Zava]

So, what's the best-looking Newey-designed car? Your personal favourite car designed by him? Discuss.

hands down.

[Risil]

It’s a widely-held belief that Adrian does his best work whenever F1 undergoes one of its periodic regulatory upheavals, moving development away from number crunching and briefly allowing creativity and intuition to come back to the fore. 2009 demonstrated that in ample measure: Red Bull Racing’s breakthrough season had Adrian’s RB5 taking five pole positions and score six victories.

And yet Red Bull have got more dominant and more successful the longer we've had the 2009-spec regulations.

On the other hand it probably suits Red Bull just fine to have people put down all their success to one man, when they have a team that's as well funded and staffed as any other.

[btw when was Newey race engineer for Andretti? During the last years where he could be described as a major, championship-contending driver, 1987 and 1988? He seemed to get a little stronger in those years, although for the first one he also had one of the few Ilmor-Chevys.]

Edited by Risil, 03 August 2011 - 19:53.

[midgrid]

And yet Red Bull have got more dominant and more successful the longer we've had the 2009-spec regulations.

If you remove Brawn from the 2009 season, then Red Bull's performance advantage through the year would have been at least as great as this year or last. The form of the Mercedes team has proved that the performance of Brawn was due to several special circumstances co-inciding, namely (a) Honda channelling an unprecedented level of resouces into the RA109/BGP 001; (b) the nature of Honda's withdrawal allowing the extremely fast car to skip winter testing, thus giving rivals such as Red Bull less opportunity to understand/copy it, and also allowing the team to accept a supply of more competitive Mercedes engines; and © the double-diffuser row.

In addition, Red Bull's main competitors, Ferrari and McLaren, have closed the deficit since 2009, and have done so in no small measure by copying elements of Newey's design philosophy, to the current extent in which the RB7 is arguably no longer the fastest car, at least in race trim.

[Bunchies]

The MP4-20 was so damn fast that its biggest enemy was itself.

Beautiful car, disappointing final result.

[Bunchies]

hands down.
[img]http://www.emercedes...nSuzuka3Big.jpg[img]

Good choice on Grand Prix too.

[midgrid]

The OP may wish to refer to this thread.

[Secretariat]

Definitely a fan of the MP4-20. Also, intrigued by the ill-fated MP4-18 in which I recall Newey saying it was the most research and development he had ever done on a car. In regards to the 20, McLaren failed to capitalize when everything seem to line up for them. In my mind it is probably one of the most underrated failures in F1 for them not to have won either title in 2005.

[Afterburner]

The MP4-20 was so damn fast that its biggest enemy was itself.

Beautiful car, disappointing final result.

Agreed. Awesome on its day, but just not reliable.

The OP may wish to refer to this thread.;)

Well, this thread is about Newey and his career in general (e.g. posts like this one and this one) as opposed to just his cars--I just suggested discussion of cars he's built to get the thread started, lol.

[Risil]

If you remove Brawn from the 2009 season, then Red Bull's performance advantage through the year would have been at least as great as this year or last. The form of the Mercedes team has proved that the performance of Brawn was due to several special circumstances co-inciding, namely (a) Honda channelling an unprecedented level of resouces into the RA109/BGP 001; (b) the nature of Honda's withdrawal allowing the extremely fast car to skip winter testing, thus giving rivals such as Red Bull less opportunity to understand/copy it, and also allowing the team to accept a supply of more competitive Mercedes engines; and © the double-diffuser row.

That still leaves us with Newey, the supposed master of these regulatory transitions, being beaten precisely because he didn't understand the nature of the regulatory transition as well as Brawn did. Renault also seemed to adapt quicker to the No Tyre Changes rule in 2005 than Newey's Mclaren did.

It would've been interesting to see how Honda/Brawn would have managed if they'd managed to keep the team that designed the 2009 car together. The way they had to end the contracts of half their workforce (or something) really damaged the organisation.

Incidentally, is there anything on record about how much of what Newey learnt from the 2003-5 experiments made its way into today's Red Bull designs? It would be sad to think that all the effort and trouble and compromised performance that went into the MP4-18 and 19 should have resulted in just one failed title challenge for him.

[Zava]

It would've been interesting to see how Honda/Brawn would have managed if they'd managed to keep the team that designed the 2009 car together. The way they had to end the contracts of half their workforce (or something) really damaged the organisation.

but an engine 45-50 bhps more powerful probably helped them.;)
I think they said that the RA109 would have been (only a) constant q3 participant with honda engine, or the other way, RA108 would have been a constant q3 participant with mercedes engine, I'm not sure.

[Risil]

I think they said that the RA109 would have been (only a) constant q3 participant with honda engine, or the other way, RA108 would have been a constant q3 participant with mercedes engine, I'm not sure.

I think the first of those things was widely accepted. But what if Mercedes had bought the team a year early, in the 2009 preseason?

In any case, all these what-ifs are only serving to point out that Brawn in 2009 weren't in a fair fight, they were undergoing a huge downsizing and restructuring process. Red Bull, meanwhile, were beginning to reap the fruits of years of well-managed investment.

Edited by Risil, 03 August 2011 - 21:55.

[DanardiF1]

Just as an aside to Newey's F1 work, has he designed anything other than racing cars in his career? I've heard he likes yachts and would do that when he retired, but has he done anything in his spare time that isn't F1-related?

[skinnyman]

[pingu666]

he races historics occasionaly too

[ClockworkRacing]

MP4-20 no doubts,i´m not a Kimi fanboy but that car suited his driving style just fine

[Afterburner]

Just as an aside to Newey's F1 work, has he designed anything other than racing cars in his career? I've heard he likes yachts and would do that when he retired, but has he done anything in his spare time that isn't F1-related?

I believe he once said he wanted to design an America's Cup contender, yes. And though it wasn't a 'real' project, he did design the Red Bull X1, a fictional car on the video game Gran Turismo 5.

[DanardiF1]

I believe he once said he wanted to design an America's Cup contender, yes. And though it wasn't a 'real' project, he did design the Red Bull X1, a fictional car on the video game Gran Turismo 5.

The X1 is badass, though I got the impression that Kaz and Polyphony had given Adrian the outline of the car, but they then asked him about what tech he'd have on it, and also about 'Red Bullifying' the design up a bit, as you can in it's nose and sidepod shapes.

[Kubiccia]

That still leaves us with Newey, the supposed master of these regulatory transitions, being beaten precisely because he didn't understand the nature of the regulatory transition as well as Brawn did. Renault also seemed to adapt quicker to the No Tyre Changes rule in 2005 than Newey's Mclaren did.

Brawn 09 only was superior in the early races because of the ILLEGAL DDD which FIA allowed for political reasons.

When RBR fitted their DDD, they trashed the Brawn car.

[zepunishment]

The mp4/20 looked beautiful, with a brutal edge to it. Fantastic car and a shame it never took any titles.

Edited by zepunishment, 04 August 2011 - 00:03.

[Risil]

Brawn 09 only was superior in the early races because of the ILLEGAL DDD which FIA allowed for political reasons.

When RBR fitted their DDD, they trashed the Brawn car.

Could we say the same about the famous second brake pedal on Newey's 1998 Mclaren? Adrian Newey's Williams team were caught out badly by regulations changes in 1994, and the delay in getting the 2005 Mclaren up to speed cost them a great deal of points to Alonso and Renault. In 1998 Newey's Mclaren was astonishingly quick at the opening race, 2009 was probably a score draw. Some you win, some you lose.

The point remains that Red Bull have not gotten appreciably weaker from 2009 to 2011. In fact Red Bull were weakest in the beginning of the 2009 season. I'm not going to go into the details of why, as it's not really the point I'm making, but it doesn't suggest Newey to be the man who shines when regulations are overturned. He was, however, right not to pursue KERS. Even towards the end of that year, the team was still having the sort of off-days (Spa, Monza, possibly Monaco) that simply haven't happened since. Vettel's won more races so far this season than he did in either of his last two. This is not the sign of a team with a genius designer battling against the odds and only succeeding until 'the establishment' grinds out a better solution, this is the sign of a genuinely strong team whose parts are all working extremely well. Including Newey.

[Dunder]

Could we say the same about the famous second brake pedal on Newey's 1998 Mclaren? Adrian Newey's Williams team were caught out badly by regulations changes in 1994, and the delay in getting the 2005 Mclaren up to speed cost them a great deal of points to Alonso and Renault. In 1998 Newey's Mclaren was astonishingly quick at the opening race, 2009 was probably a score draw. Some you win, some you lose.

The car had some issues in the early races but I am not sure that being outperformed by a car equipped with an illegal traction control system equates to "caught out badly".

[fastlegs]

Could we say the same about the famous second brake pedal on Newey's 1998 Mclaren? Adrian Newey's Williams team were caught out badly by regulations changes in 1994, and the delay in getting the 2005 Mclaren up to speed cost them a great deal of points to Alonso and Renault. In 1998 Newey's Mclaren was astonishingly quick at the opening race, 2009 was probably a score draw. Some you win, some you lose.

The point remains that Red Bull have not gotten appreciably weaker from 2009 to 2011. In fact Red Bull were weakest in the beginning of the 2009 season. I'm not going to go into the details of why, as it's not really the point I'm making, but it doesn't suggest Newey to be the man who shines when regulations are overturned. He was, however, right not to pursue KERS. Even towards the end of that year, the team was still having the sort of off-days (Spa, Monza, possibly Monaco) that simply haven't happened since. Vettel's won more races so far this season than he did in either of his last two. This is not the sign of a team with a genius designer battling against the odds and only succeeding until 'the establishment' grinds out a better solution, this is the sign of a genuinely strong team whose parts are all working extremely well. Including Newey.

Thank you Mr. Wizard for your great assessment.

[George Costanza]

If Newey stayed with Williams from '97 until today, Williams would be right there with McLaren and Ferrari and the likes.... Its pretty simple.

[velgajski1]

And yet Red Bull have got more dominant and more successful the longer we've had the 2009-spec regulations.

That's because RBR has Newey AND Ferrari/McLaren kind of resources.

[Johnrambo]

If Newey stayed with Williams from '97 until today, Williams would be right there with McLaren and Ferrari and the likes.... Its pretty simple.

If if. Would never have happened because Patrick Head's ego. I think the story was Newey could never become technical director at Williams and the only way to go forward was to leave.

[Johnrambo]

the delay in getting the 2005 Mclaren up to speed cost them a great deal of points to Alonso and Renault.

What was wrong with them before Imola?

[mrmusicman]

Montoya's Mp20 was very reliable, so its unfair to lay blame on the car for failing to win the titles.

[Peat]

To give him his dues, he has penned alot of succesful cars.

But, as a design engineer, i get a bit hacked off that the general fanbase attributes a car's design to just one bloke.....

[Zava]

Montoya's Mp20 was very reliable, so its unfair to lay blame on the car for failing to win the titles.

Montoya's MP4-20 also had failures (I recall him failing the hungaroring from the lead for example?) also Montoya's MP4-20 collected about the half of Kimi's MP4-20's points.

[mrmusicman]

Montoya's MP4-20 also had failures (I recall him failing the hungaroring from the lead for example?) also Montoya's MP4-20 collected about the half of Kimi's MP4-20's points.

1 failure out of 19 races is not unreliable and the dominant speed of that car more than made up for it. Great car the best of the season.

[EdwardCullen]

1 failure out of 19 races is not unreliable and the dominant speed of that car more than made up for it. Great car the best of the season.

LOL, Alonso fanboy desperately trying to discredit Kimi's 2005 season , so that Alonso gets all the credit

[Baddoer]

Yep, BGP001 was an awesome car
Oh, wait...

[rolf123]

The Williams dominance was due to active suspension, was it not?

Are we attributing that to Newey now?

He's either a great organiser or a specialist innovator. He's not both. He's not Superman.

[GerhardBerger]

The Williams dominance was due to active suspension, was it not?

Are we attributing that to Newey now?

He's either a great organiser or a specialist innovator. He's not both. He's not Superman.

Williams were still very succesful even after active suspension was banned.

I don't think he has to be one or the other - it's more than possible that he could be both a great organiser (as most good technical directors have to be) and an innovator.

[cilurnum]

The Williams dominance was due to active suspension, was it not?

Are we attributing that to Newey now?

Yes because Newey is very demanding of those around him. He knew that he could do a lot with the aerodynamics if active suspension was made to work so he pushed Patrick Head into doing it.

It was the same with Renault. They ended up with the most powerful engine out there because Newey wouldn't compromise on downforce. He simply pointed at the engine people when drag was mentioned and asked them what they were doing.

[Secretariat]

The Williams dominance was due to active suspension, was it not?

Are we attributing that to Newey now?

He's either a great organiser or a specialist innovator. He's not both. He's not Superman.

I think a specialist innovator. In opinion Geoff Willis is someone that helped things get organized at Red Bull and facing the right direction. Yes. As others have mentioned it is rarely ever a one man show.

Edited by Secretariat, 04 August 2011 - 11:56.

[TennisUK]

Brawn 09 only was superior in the early races because of the ILLEGAL DDD which FIA allowed for political reasons.

[APR824]

To give him his dues, he has penned alot of succesful cars.

But, as a design engineer, i get a bit hacked off that the general fanbase attributes a car's design to just one bloke.....

So true, Newey design every little thing that goes on the car, he'll design the car and what ever really major updates need to be done, like the floor, but the front wing additions and other bits get designed by the staff that Newey is head of. He is the chief technical officer, so most of his work is designing the full car and hiring the smartest engineers he can find to design everything else. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[DanardiF1]

So true, Newey design every little thing that goes on the car, he'll design the car and what ever really major updates need to be done, like the floor, but the front wing additions and other bits get designed by the staff that Newey is head of. He is the chief technical officer, so most of his work is designing the full car and hiring the smartest engineers he can find to design everything else. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

That's true, the Chief Designer at Red Bull is a chap called Rob Marshall, another expensive purchase by RBR for their aero team, which also includes the highly-rated Peter Prodomou who worked with Newey at McLaren...

These three guys are expensively assembled, but crucial to what Red Bull have done in the last 3 years.

[GerhardBerger]

That's true, the Chief Designer at Red Bull is a chap called Rob Marshall, another expensive purchase by RBR for their aero team, which also includes the highly-rated Peter Prodomou who worked with Newey at McLaren...

These three guys are expensively assembled, but crucial to what Red Bull have done in the last 3 years.

out of interest, which team did they get Marshall from?

[bogi]

Marshal designed 05-06 renault.

[bogi]

Maybe this is the right place to post this.

I'm the winner of the Haynes Owners Workshop Manual signed by Adrian and also Webber, Vettel and Horner. I'm really honored to have book about RB6 signed by Adrian Newey:

[cilurnum]

That's true, the Chief Designer at Red Bull is a chap called Rob Marshall, another expensive purchase by RBR for their aero team, which also includes the highly-rated Peter Prodomou who worked with Newey at McLaren...

Rob Marshall is not an aerodynamic guy but a mechanical one, and is widely credited with the mass damper.

Rob is there to work mechanical miracles for the benefit of the aerodynamics.

Edited by cilurnum, 05 August 2011 - 11:07.

[fololo]

Rob Marshall is not an aerodynamic guy but a mechanical one, and is widely credited with the mass damper.

Rob is there to work mechanical miracles for the benefit of the aerodynamics.

theres 1 better than newey. Rory byrne. He killed Newey

[gillesthegenius]

RBR's secret is evolution - Lewis
http://m.espnf1.com/news?storyNo=57285


A couple of interesting quotes...

"They [Red Bull] have had a car since 2009 that's almost been the same car, it's just evolved,"

''I may be wrong, but I have no doubts that they will be very strong next season.''

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 August 2011 - 15:33.

[wingwalker]

Awesome, Bogi!!!

[George Costanza]

Marshal designed 05-06 renault.

The 2005-2006 Renaults were designed by Tim Densham.