52 replies to this topic

[f1rookie]

Bernie Ecclestone has warned again new power pitlane motor idea of 2014, and he says, it could result in “people being killed” . The new engine rules in 2014 sport will downsize its engines from the existing 2.4litre V8 to a more environmentally friendly 1.6litre V6 hybrid. New engine will use the energy created by braking to power an electric motor which the cars will be forced to run on in the pitlane.

Full news - http://www.formula1o...tric-power.html


It's possible for F1? - electric power run

You will agree FIA's rules?

I think new rules is not possible for F1

[pacificquay]

Not possible?

That's why it's going to happen then?

People on forums know a hell of a lot more than technical directors it seems.

[Andy865]

already confirmed from 2014.

[undersquare]

The contrast will be totally amazing if it happens.

[krapmeister]

The contrast will be totally amazing if it happens.

While I don't accept Bernie's hysteria I do think some kind of audible system will need to be in place to warn people in pitlane that there are cars approaching.

[Gemini]

already confirmed from 2014.

I bet they will change this regulation.

Edited by Gemini, 06 August 2011 - 01:10.

[KOMORI]

I bet Bernie will change this regulation.

Fixed

[Jazza]

While I don't accept Bernie's hysteria I do think some kind of audible system will need to be in place to warn people in pitlane that there are cars approaching.

I thought there already was a horn and alarm that went off when cars entered the pit lane? (although that won't help with cars exiting a pit box as it is now, I'm sure it could be wired up to be activated by teams)

[Dunder]

Yes it is possible and is written into the rules. Cars will run on energy generated from KERS and TERS only in the pitlane.

[pingu666]

might have some issues refiring the cars coming out of the pits then, as hot engines arent so happy to refire up. also what happens if your kers/ters is broken?

[icecream]

what is the point of this?

[senna da silva]

Make pitstops irrelevant and this all goes away. 5 lug nuts and one man to change all four tyres. Sorted.

[pingu666]

with pireli tyres?

it would be ~5sec per wheel, plus movement time, going off nascar...

[David M. Kane]

Why don't we get KERS to work first?

[krapmeister]

I thought there already was a horn and alarm that went off when cars entered the pit lane? (although that won't help with cars exiting a pit box as it is now, I'm sure it could be wired up to be activated by teams)

I think you may be right, and also I agree that it is likely to be cars exiting the pit box which pose the most danger. In fact there was a bill going before the US Congress recently to force cars that make little to no sound - ie. electric cars - to have audible sounds to alert pedestrians to their presence. Perhaps the FIA could mandate them to sound like something from The Jetsons?

Why don't we get KERS to work first?

Red Bull will never leave the pitlane...

Edited by krapmeister, 06 August 2011 - 05:43.

[johnap]

I think you may be right, and also I agree that it is likely to be cars exiting the pit box which pose the most danger. In fact there was a bill going before the US Congress recently to force cars that make little to no sound - ie. electric cars - to have audible sounds to alert pedestrians to their presence. Perhaps the FIA could mandate them to sound like something from The Jetsons?

Red Bull will never leave the pitlane...

I can understand them needs it for road cars, but F1 cars in a pitlane?

Its a one lane environment with one way traffic with cars that are fairly large and noticable. Its not like the cars are as non-descript as a Vauxhall Corsa!*

Of course the best way to reduce the problem is to ban them from changing tyres and have a tyre war again ;)

*Disclaimer: I drive a Corsa

Edited by johnap, 06 August 2011 - 07:35.

[MadYarpen]

I don't mind. And citroen made some electric concept, it sounds awesome for such car, like a jet plane and I've read it is really loud when you see it live. So who knows, maybe it will everything be ok?

[Kraken]

might have some issues refiring the cars coming out of the pits then, as hot engines arent so happy to refire up. also what happens if your kers/ters is broken?

Then you're out of the race. The same as if your primary engine, brakes, wheels, steering or any other component essential to compliance with the rules was to break.

[FireWood]

might have some issues refiring the cars coming out of the pits then, as hot engines arent so happy to refire up. also what happens if your kers/ters is broken?

It will also mean the cars will now need to carry starter motors and power to use them (unless this will come from the KERS battery as well?).

[johnap]

It will also mean the cars will now need to carry starter motors and power to use them (unless this will come from the KERS battery as well?).

The new rules require the cars to have starter motors as well

[undersquare]

While I don't accept Bernie's hysteria I do think some kind of audible system will need to be in place to warn people in pitlane that there are cars approaching.

Yeah I know what you mean. But if some cars are going past on the pit straight how loud would it have to be?

Especially given how deaf F1 people are.

A mega loud warning tone could sound really ugly, so I'm not sure. Maybe people will have to learn to just look.

[shanakar]

Well I think it will make the sport more interesting. Hey hey, hold your horses, don't sharpen your swords before I finish. At least we'll start seeing more pitlane fires from overheating electrics. Might even see a driver get electrocuted to death. And people said Bernie doesn't know how to liven up the show. He's not only living it up with this, he'll even light it up, and a few drivers with it...literally.

Now on the serious note. I think its completely stupid, just as stupid as the electric starts that have been proposed. Bernie needs to get his head out of his ass long enough to smell the fresh air and let his brain run on oxygen for a change. He's starting to become senile in his old age.

[Wi000]

Bernie needs to get his head out of his ass long enough to smell the fresh air and let his brain run on oxygen for a change. He's starting to become senile in his old age.

I don't think Bernie's senility is the problem here but your lack of comprehensive reading might be. You do realize it's not Bernie proposing this but him opposing it?

Guess it's all part of the green technology image FIA are trying to give F1, I don't think it's a must do idea but can't see the problem of it lacking sound. There's already a warning sound when cars enter the pitlane but frankly you don't hear that when cars pass at speed on the straight just like you don't hear cars in the pitlane when another one is passing on race speed.

Reason Bernie opposes is probably not so much the safety reason than him looking to pick a fight with Todt.

[F1matt]

Why would people be killed? There was a greater risk during the refuelling era, or when pit lane crew didn’t wear fire proof clothing, or when useless drivers like Jerome D’Amboise (sp) come into the pits sideways, that is more of a risk than cars coming into the pits using KERS, as mentioned above the cars only travel in one direction, at pretty much set times and the pit crews are facing the way the cars travel. The pit lane is a very restricted area so it shouldn’t be a problem, as for the issue of drivers getting electrocuted why don’t they get electrocuted when they push the KERS button now? The teams know they have to make more reliable KERS systems when the new regulations come into force, no different form when the limited engine and gearbox rules came into force, or the testing ban was introduced, the outcome was the same, the teams coped with the issue and made it work, some better than others.
Bernie is merely scaremongering and maximising the publicity when a F1 story is hard to come by dues to the enforced summer break, it’s a political issue of his rather than a sporting issue, and a blatant attack on the president of the FIA, who so far is doing a much better job than his best mate!

[Red17]

Yeah I know what you mean. But if some cars are going past on the pit straight how loud would it have to be?

Especially given how deaf F1 people are.

A mega loud warning tone could sound really ugly, so I'm not sure. Maybe people will have to learn to just look.

An electric engine just for pits is too complicated and expensive in my opinion, if they are going to add it, let teams use it in the race.

It may have changed but I recall going to Estoril and there was this loud buzz that would go off everytime a car entered pitlane.
This was in the 90's but I cant see why it would be rulled out.

But Bernie's excuse is a bit odd, isnt pitlane a reserved area already? Im sure people who are in pitlane must be constantly reminded to be alert and avoid dive acts like in Canada.

Edited by Red17, 06 August 2011 - 11:28.

[primer]

Im sure people who are in pitlane must be constantly reminded to be alert and avoid dive acts like in Canada.

The noise helps in situational awareness. The noise acts as a cue. No one can be constantly 360^ovigilant, you simply tire out after a few minutes. A car pulling away from a pit stop silently is more dangerous than a noisy car.

This whole electric/hybrid thing is stupid.

[Secretariat]

Yeah I know what you mean. But if some cars are going past on the pit straight how loud would it have to be?

Especially given how deaf F1 people are.

A mega loud warning tone could sound really ugly, so I'm not sure. Maybe people will have to learn to just look.

People should be paying attention. I was discussing this in F1's green future thread. However there are reasonable tones that can be used and should be quite audible when you consider that the pitlane would not have engines running. I seen a video of V8 Supercars where their warning signal was kind of like a phone ringing.

Edited by Secretariat, 06 August 2011 - 11:30.

[dau]

what is the point of this?

Force all the teams to run a reliable KERS, i guess.

[DrProzac]

While I'm not a fan of hybrid powered F1, I don't mind this rule as long as they won't have to retire or get DTs when they won't be able to run on the electric engine due to reliability problems. Though this rule is a bit pointless.

The only really good thing about these rules is that they will be able to restart the engine using the MGU. But anti-stall usually takes care of this problem anyway.

already confirmed from 2014.

Nothing is confirmed in F1. Especially rules that are presented as a "draft" or "proposal".

While I don't accept Bernie's hysteria I do think some kind of audible system will need to be in place to warn people in pitlane that there are cars approaching.

For sure. They use such systems in motorcycle racing.

Perhaps the FIA could mandate them to sound like something from The Jetsons?

I have a better idea - let every driver record their own engine sound:

[F1 Mike]

I have a better idea - let every driver record their own engine sound:

Yes, this is the answer! They must have a loudspeaker fitted the same as a cop car, and they have to do their own car noises into the microphone in their helmet

[byrkus]

Yes, this is the answer! They must have a loudspeaker fitted the same as a cop car, and they have to do their own car noises into the microphone in their helmet

Too bad Montoya isn't in F1 anymore. His sound effects could have epic potential.

[se7en_24]

Well I think it will make the sport more interesting. Hey hey, hold your horses, don't sharpen your swords before I finish. At least we'll start seeing more pitlane fires from overheating electrics. Might even see a driver get electrocuted to death. And people said Bernie doesn't know how to liven up the show. He's not only living it up with this, he'll even light it up, and a few drivers with it...literally.

Now on the serious note. I think its completely stupid, just as stupid as the electric starts that have been proposed. Bernie needs to get his head out of his ass long enough to smell the fresh air and let his brain run on oxygen for a change. He's starting to become senile in his old age.

Maybe you should go back and actually read the article.

[Ise]

Hope Racing tried a hybrid system at Le Mans this year, which meant they were only powered by electricity down pit-lane. They had a lot teething troubles early on (Hybrid teams had to perform a shakedown during the April tests, where the car's had to travel the length of the pit-lane solely on hybrid power, Hope failed their first test.) but managed to get the system working for the event. Not only that but it actually worked well.

I'd like to see this sort of technology make its way into F1, even in some small, almost insignificant role. Hope's pit-lane system would be a great route to nessel into, only issue would be to make sure the system reliable.

[undersquare]

Hope Racing tried a hybrid system at Le Mans this year, which meant they were only powered by electricity down pit-lane. They had a lot teething troubles early on (Hybrid teams had to perform a shakedown during the April tests, where the car's had to travel the length of the pit-lane solely on hybrid power, Hope failed their first test.) but managed to get the system working for the event. Not only that but it actually worked well.

I'd like to see this sort of technology make its way into F1, even in some small, almost insignificant role. Hope's pit-lane system would be a great route to nessel into, only issue would be to make sure the system reliable.

Interesting.

I think it would be fun.

[icecream]

Force all the teams to run a reliable KERS, i guess.

ah, ok. but a more reliable KERS system does not mean a more efficient (and useful) KERS system, right?

surely if they simply raise the max power contribution (2014?) it would be enough to force usage.

[Morbus]

A kind of small siren for each car would be relatively simple to implement, and the sound would be whatever we'd like.

Now, people arguing that electric cars (for the street) should make an artificial sound to alert pedestrians of their presence are probable the same kind of people that get in front of cyclists and joggers because they can't be bothered looking where they're going. Well, considering it's America, they probably physically can't look where they're going

[ClockworkRacing]

JA posted an article about this,and he wrote that this is probrably Todt´s idea,since Bernie doesn´t want F1 cars to be eletrical,which i personally think is rubbish,he also thinks that Toyota will be the supplier,they already have an eletrical car that has set an astonishing time at the Nurburgring

[Fastcake]

ah, ok. but a more reliable KERS system does not mean a more efficient (and useful) KERS system, right?

An unreliable KERS is pretty useless. It's an image thing really, to show F1 is capable moving with the times.

[Willow Rosenberg]

My money is on Patrick Head as the first casualty.

[krapmeister]

Hope Racing tried a hybrid system at Le Mans this year, which meant they were only powered by electricity down pit-lane. They had a lot teething troubles early on (Hybrid teams had to perform a shakedown during the April tests, where the car's had to travel the length of the pit-lane solely on hybrid power, Hope failed their first test.) but managed to get the system working for the event. Not only that but it actually worked well.

I'd like to see this sort of technology make its way into F1, even in some small, almost insignificant role. Hope's pit-lane system would be a great route to nessel into, only issue would be to make sure the system reliable.

Didn't realise that hybrids were onyl supposed to use electrical power in the pitlane at Le Mans - cheers for that

I certainly don't have an issue with using electric power only, as long as it doesn't make it any riskier for those in pitlane...

Now, people arguing that electric cars (for the street) should make an artificial sound to alert pedestrians of their presence are
probable the same kind of people that get in front of cyclists and joggers because they can't be bothered looking where they're going. Well, considering it's America, they probably physically can't look where they're going

Umm... blind and/or visually impaired people? Hello?

Edited by krapmeister, 07 August 2011 - 05:45.

[Slowinfastout]

Technically it's a massive challenge, so much that I wouldn't be surprised to see the rules being changed.

I don't think F1 will tolerate races being ruined by that, if the engines fail to restart a couple of times or if any of the big teams can't make it out of the pits more than once.

For us it's gonna be bizarre watching the cars get out of the box slowly and silently...lol

Personally I'm not a big fan of it, what's the next step after that you reckon?

[mrmusicman]

An idea so stupid, only F1 could think of it.

[krapmeister]

Technically it's a massive challenge, so much that I wouldn't be surprised to see the rules being changed.

I don't think F1 will tolerate races being ruined by that, if the engines fail to restart a couple of times or if any of the big teams can't make it out of the pits more than once.

For us it's gonna be bizarre watching the cars get out of the box slowly and silently...lol

Personally I'm not a big fan of it, what's the next step after that you reckon?

What makes you think they will get out of the box slowly?

[Slowinfastout]

What makes you think they will get out of the box slowly?

How many horsepower are we talking about? I don't remember who it was, but someone mentioned there would not be enough power to spin the tires, Scarbs maybe.. (?)

But even then, that's not the biggest issue. To carry the car around the whole pitlane is the issue. And since the KERS output are supposed to be greater, it means it affects the normal race pace and strategy even more. It may mean having to carry around a bigger battery pack than you may need for normal usage, it means not using KERS for a period of time before pitting, etc..

There are so many unknowns and new things to figure out about it, I'm not seeing F1 suddenly adopting that from one season to the next.. we see F1 as cutting edge but it's actually pretty conservative in a strange way.
There's too many ways to get burned with that one, it could easily ruin a team, even a top one, if they don't get on top of it.. and for that reason alone I predict the rules will be changed.

(obviously Bernie has also openly said it will get changed but I tried to avoid that while forming my opinion.)

[byrkus]

How many horsepower are we talking about? I don't remember who it was, but someone mentioned there would not be enough power to spin the tires, Scarbs maybe.. (?)

700 kg racecar, doing 120 kph in pitlane... About 30 horsepower should be more than enough.;)

[F1matt]

Not sure why it is so important to wheel spin in the pit lane unless I am missing something? Maybe it will make pit stops safer when cars get released! Electric cars are usually pretty quick from a standing start because they are direct drive and don't have a gear box, I remeber that from jumping on the back of milk floats on the way to school but I hop F1 has a far more advanced system.

[Slowinfastout]

Err.. ok, forget about the wheelspin comment.. that was hardly the gist of my argument.

I think it would look undramatic at any given moment to have the car at 20% of it's maximum propelling power, at best, but that wasn't the point.

[Concorde]

Technically it's a massive challenge, so much that I wouldn't be surprised to see the rules being changed.

I don't think it's that much of a technical challenge, to be classified as a hybrid for Le Mans cars need to be able to travel the length of the pit-lane on electric power so I'd expect F1 to manage too.

Ironically iirc Le Mans hybrids didn't have to use it during the race because the ACO like Bernie, deemed it too dangerous having cars run in the pit-lane without noise.
Of-course during Le Mans we're talking about 50+ stands and more pit-stops.

I think it's a way to boost the green image of F1 if that's deemed essential by the powers that be but I'm rather indifferent about it.

[Slowinfastout]

I don't think it's that much of a technical challenge, to be classified as a hybrid for Le Mans cars need to be able to travel the length of the pit-lane on electric power so I'd expect F1 to manage too.

Ironically iirc Le Mans hybrids didn't have to use it during the race because the ACO like Bernie, deemed it too dangerous having cars run in the pit-lane without noise.
Of-course during Le Mans we're talking about 50+ stands and more pit-stops.

I think it's a way to boost the green image of F1 if that's deemed essential by the powers that be but I'm rather indifferent about it.

That's a bit too simplistic for my taste. Red Bull F1 were anal about packaging to the point of having a nearly non-working KERS.

If you tell them they have to run one pitlane with one KERS to get the idiots off their back for the season, they'll figure out a way.

Hi BTW, lost the old password again?

[krapmeister]

How many horsepower are we talking about? I don't remember who it was, but someone mentioned there would not be enough power to spin the tires, Scarbs maybe.. (?)

But even then, that's not the biggest issue. To carry the car around the whole pitlane is the issue. And since the KERS output are supposed to be greater, it means it affects the normal race pace and strategy even more. It may mean having to carry around a bigger battery pack than you may need for normal usage, it means not using KERS for a period of time before pitting, etc..

There are so many unknowns and new things to figure out about it, I'm not seeing F1 suddenly adopting that from one season to the next.. we see F1 as cutting edge but it's actually pretty conservative in a strange way.
There's too many ways to get burned with that one, it could easily ruin a team, even a top one, if they don't get on top of it.. and for that reason alone I predict the rules will be changed.

(obviously Bernie has also openly said it will get changed but I tried to avoid that while forming my opinion.)

I don't see the technical challenge being too much for F1 - well, apart from RBR perhaps...

Not too bothered about how fast they leave the pitbox, because it's unlikely that they will crawl away - and the cars only have to get up to the pitlane speed limit anyway.

You could however argue about the cost of it at a time that F1 teams are trying to supposedly reduce their spend, and whether it actually brings anything to the racing for the additional cost.