58 replies to this topic

[Russell Burrows]

I thought a separate thread for early stuff could be interesting. I had no idea that bikes once roared around Monaco :
http://mcm.asso.mc/M.../GPMonaco48.htm

[fil2.8]

Yes , why not ?? , surprised it hasn't been mentioned before , Russ

[Russell Burrows]

Is Monneret on a pre war R7 Ajay?

[omobono]

Is Monneret on a pre war R7 Ajay?

Exhaust pipe looks a little KTT ish

[Russell Burrows]

Exhaust pipe looks a little KTT ish

Right, now that the petrol bomb chuckers and the riot police have moved down the street.... Yes, I intially thought it looked a bit Velo like but after blowing it up (which I now can't seem to repeat) it does resemble an R7.

[rotrax]

I thought a separate thread for early stuff could be interesting. I had no idea that bikes once roared around Monaco :
http://mcm.asso.mc/M.../GPMonaco48.htm

Hi, In Surtees book of Motor Racing Heroes published by Pirelli there is a super photo of Tazio Nuvolari on an early single cylinder Indian-the one with the cylinder sloping rearwards. By all acounts he was "A bit of a daredevil" and realy got going after joining Bianchi in 1925. I believe it was Nuvolari who brushed a wall in the TT and found a good sized bit of his little finger in his glove when he took it off. He castigated his boss Enzo Ferrari for buying return tickets. He said you must always allow for the possibility of being killed in a race. A hard,focused character by the sound of it!

[Herr Wankel]

Right, now that the petrol bomb chuckers and the riot police have moved down the street.... Yes, I intially thought it looked a bit Velo like but after blowing it up (which I now can't seem to repeat) it does resemble an R7.

I think the Monnerets were Velo agents ?

HW

[Russell Burrows]

Anyone want to have a go at this pre war www?

[Russell Burrows]

Hi, In Surtees book of Motor Racing Heroes published by Pirelli there is a super photo of Tazio Nuvolari on an early single cylinder Indian-the one with the cylinder sloping rearwards. By all acounts he was "A bit of a daredevil" and realy got going after joining Bianchi in 1925. I believe it was Nuvolari who brushed a wall in the TT and found a good sized bit of his little finger in his glove when he took it off. He castigated his boss Enzo Ferrari for buying return tickets. He said you must always allow for the possibility of being killed in a race. A hard,focused character by the sound of it!

Yes, when men were men and two strokes were (mostly) slow.

[Russell Burrows]

I think the Monnerets were Velo agents ?

HW

Don't know, Herr. The picture caption says its an 500 AJS and when I somehow managed to enlarge the area around the motor it did seem to show a cam chain cover.

[larryd]

Anyone want to have a go at this pre war www?

What do you think, Russ?

Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps, July 25 1937.

From the left:

26 John White ("Crasher") 350 Norton - 1st in the 350

2 Fred Frith 500 Norton - 2nd in the 500

1 Jimmy Guthrie 500 Norton - 1st in the 500.

They are lining up for the Handicap race, peculiar to the Belgian GP, which featured the first two finishers from each class - 175cc, 250cc, 350cc & 500cc.

Now - for an unspecified bonus - who knows the pipesmoker?

And what happened to him in the GP?

I'll give you 24 hours . . . . . . . . .

[Rennmax]

What do you think, Russ?

Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps, July 25 1937.

Now - for an unspecified bonus - who knows the pipesmoker?

And what happened to him in the GP?

I'll give you 24 hours . . . . . . . . .

Wild punt...a young Fergus Anderson ??

[larryd]

Wild punt...a young Fergus Anderson ??

You are too good, Renn - Fergus A indeed!


Any idea what he had been riding, and what happened in the race?

[Rennmax]

You are too good, Renn - Fergus A indeed!


Any idea what he had been riding, and what happened in the race?

Not really Larry. I only know that he rode DKWs amongst others, but not as early as '37 ?

[larryd]

Not really Larry. I only know that he rode DKWs amongst others, but not as early as '37 ?

Take this as coming from a genuine anorak, Renn - he was on a KTT Velo belonging to Jack Adams, and it ran a main bearing on lap 12 . . . . . . . .

[Russell Burrows]

Take this as coming from a genuine anorak, Renn - he was on a KTT Velo belonging to Jack Adams, and it ran a main bearing on lap 12 . . . . . . . .

Oh, didn't I say, anyone except you, Larry. The caption on the pic says it's a pre practice line up ?

[larryd]

Oh, didn't I say, anyone except you, Larry. The caption on the pic says it's a pre practice line up ?

Oh dear, Russ - it's confession time.

I have that photo, uncropped, and it shows 7 riders lined up across the road:

From the right: Guthrie, Frith (500s); White & Ted Mellors (1st & 2nd in the 350; Walfried Winkler (DKW - 1st 250); Bernhardt Petruschke (DKW - 1st 175); and Ivan Goor (Benelli - 2nd 250).

Missing is van Geert, who was 2nd 175 on a Rush - maybe he's had enough for the day.

A thought occurs - if it were practice, then it would be a hell of a coincidence to get all the race winners plus three of the runners-up in a line.

Plus - why would Fergus be standing smoking his pipe?

Prosecution rests - no further questions of this witness.

[Russell Burrows]

Oh dear, Russ - it's confession time.

I have that photo, uncropped, and it shows 7 riders lined up across the road:

From the right: Guthrie, Frith (500s); White & Ted Mellors (1st & 2nd in the 350; Walfried Winkler (DKW - 1st 250); Bernhardt Petruschke (DKW - 1st 175); and Ivan Goor (Benelli - 2nd 250).

Missing is van Geert, who was 2nd 175 on a Rush - maybe he's had enough for the day.

A thought occurs - if it were practice, then it would be a hell of a coincidence to get all the race winners plus three of the runners-up in a line.

Plus - why would Fergus be standing smoking his pipe?

Prosecution rests - no further questions of this witness.

A post race line up seems reasonable, Larry. For a fleeting moment there thought you were suggesting it was the start ;) Is you pic from a biog piece on Fergus ?

[larryd]

A post race line up seems reasonable, Larry. For a fleeting moment there thought you were suggesting it was the start ;) Is you pic from a biog piece on Fergus ?

No, Russ, it's from an excellent book by the late Helmut Krackowizer called "Motorrad Album" publ.1990 and subtitled (My translation!) "Fascinating photos from six decades of Motorcycle Sport". I just happened to recognise FKA standing behind.

Worth having if you can find it.

Very occasionally he gets his captions in a slight twist, but not often! This one he gets right - "Sieger-Handicap-Lauf" (Winners' Handicap Race")

Edited by larryd, 15 August 2011 - 19:50.

[Rennmax]

No, Russ, it's from an excellent book by the late Helmut Krackowizer called "Motorrad Album" publ.1990 and subtitled (My translation!) "Fascinating photos from six decades of Motorcycle Sport". I just happened to recognise FKA standing behind.

Worth having if you can find it.

Very occasionally he gets his captions in a slight twist, but not often! This one he gets right - "Sieger-Handicap-Lauf" (Winners' Handicap Race")

According to the caption in the 'Motorradalbum' the shot was taken at Floreffe and not in Spa. Do you think it's one of the 'slight twists' Larry ?

[larryd]

According to the caption in the 'Motorradalbum' the shot was taken at Floreffe and not in Spa. Do you think it's one of the 'slight twists' Larry ?

I wasn't going to confuse matters further, Renn, by mentioning that, but yes I'd spotted that error!

The Belgian only ran at Floreffe once, in 1936 - the opinion of everybody, including the riders, was that it was too bl**dy dangerous for a Grand Prix, with bumpy, twisty, narrow and tree-lined roads.

So - 1937, back to Spa!

I take it that you have the book, Renn - what do you think of it?

[Rennmax]

I wasn't going to confuse matters further, Renn, by mentioning that, but yes I'd spotted that error!

The Belgian only ran at Floreffe once, in 1936 - the opinion of everybody, including the riders, was that it was too bl**dy dangerous for a Grand Prix, with bumpy, twisty, narrow and tree-lined roads.

So - 1937, back to Spa!

I take it that you have the book, Renn - what do you think of it?

Hi Larry, nice compilation of rare shots, would be even better in a bigger format, recommendable if you get it for a reasonable price

[terryshep]

Anyone want to have a go at this pre war www?

Jimmy Guthrie on the right?

[Russell Burrows]

Yes Terry, here's the other half of the post race line up.

[Rennmax]

Bernhard Petruschke (No 71) was later involved in the MZ squad, Heinz Rosner was a bit imprudent when he mentioned during the GP at Imatra in '61 that Finland was quite a nice place. This was reported by Bernhard to the 'officials' which resulted in a 4 year long ban for western races for Heinz...possibly their nerves were still on edge after Degner's defection

Edited by Rennmax, 17 August 2011 - 06:46.

[omobono]

Here's a contribution to Early Days. WWW ???

[jaybee49]

I would not have clue who they are but simply great and wonderful and atmospheric pics. A wonderful addition to the forum. More please... Freddie Frith looks like a bit of a gangster, all mean and moody . Great pics again. Thanks.

[larryd]

Here's a contribution to Early Days. WWW ???

On the grid for the 1925 Senior TT.

Alec Bennett on his works Norton chatting to Freddie Dixon, whose factory Douglas is seen behind, No 14.

19 is the Montgomery of the (later) Velocette genius Harold Willis.

In the Fair Isle pullover and trilby hat might be Nigel Spring, but I wouldn't put too much money on that one

[omobono]

[quote name='larryd' date='Aug 18 2011, 01:37' post='5232199']
On the grid for the 1925 Senior TT.

Alec Bennett on his works Norton chatting to Freddie Dixon, whose factory Douglas is seen behind, No 14.

19 is the Montgomery of the (later) Velocette genius Harold Willis.

In the Fair Isle pullover and trilby hat might be Nigel Spring, but I wouldn't put too much money on that one
[/quote)

Alec Bennett it is. :clap: Would that be a Model 18 Norton ? The caption says the other rider is Rex Judd (who didn't ride in the 1925 Senior). It does look like Freddie Dixon

[larryd]

Alec Bennett it is. Would that be a Model 18 Norton ? The caption says the other rider is Rex Judd (who didn't ride in the 1925 Senior). It does look like Freddie Dixon

Not sure if they called it the Model 18 at that time, but it's certainly the ohv works racer - won't be long before the camshaft motor appears!

Not only does it look like Freddie D, No 14 is definitely his factory Douglas.

Further, I'm now convinced that it is Nigel Spring in the background!

[omobono]

[b]Not sure if they called it the Model 18 at that time, but it's certainly the ohv works racer - won't be long before the camshaft motor

Yes. May have been a record at the time. Senior winner on a Side Valve, OHV and OHC in the space of five years

[Russell Burrows]

Anyone want to have a punt on this one? Sorry about the quality - think my scanner is on its last legs.

[GD66]

Brands Hatch when it first became a roadrace track : and is that a young John Surtees on pole on his Triumph Tiger 70 ? If so, it could be his first meeting...

[Russell Burrows]

Brands Hatch when it first became a roadrace track : and is that a young John Surtees on pole on his Triumph Tiger 70 ? If so, it could be his first meeting...

I'm impressed, Glenn. Yes, the first ever road race at Brands, Easter Sunday, 1950. It was a 250 heat and could well have been Surtees' first ever race. How's about the guy with the flag?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 20 August 2011 - 07:29.

[GD66]

Yeah, no idea mate : Tom Arter ?

[Russell Burrows]

Yeah, no idea mate : Tom Arter ?

It's the then current 500 World Champ, Les Graham. 80% Glenn, a good 2:1.

[Russell Burrows]

Anyone want to have a go at this pre war www?

Crasher White was one of racing's more unusual characters. A Cambridge graduate who taught in a public school, he somehow wangled time off during term time to take his place with the factory Norton team at the TT and GP's. A DR trainer during the War, he returned to the schoolroom after hostilities had come to an end. I don't think he ever resumed his racing career though. Anyone know this for certain, or what happened to Crasher in the years that followed?

Just answering my own question : http://www.suite101....m-rider-a251700 Norton restricted his rides and didn't pay him!

Edited by Russell Burrows, 20 August 2011 - 17:15.

[Rennmax]

Some DKW PR vid




Not sure about the circuit in the 1st part of the footage, though at 2:50 it looks very much like Sachsenring's Queckenberg Kurve

Edited by Rennmax, 24 August 2011 - 10:58.

[graham houlihan]

Crasher White was one of racing's more unusual characters. A Cambridge graduate who taught in a public school, he somehow wangled time off during term time to take his place with the factory Norton team at the TT and GP's. A DR trainer during the War, he returned to the schoolroom after hostilities had come to an end. I don't think he ever resumed his racing career though. Anyone know this for certain, or what happened to Crasher in the years that followed?

Just answering my own question : http://www.suite101....m-rider-a251700 Norton restricted his rides and didn't pay him!

Crasher never got paid by Norton, but he got to keep prize money and any personal bonuses from oil companies. etc. Racing earned him between £400 and £500 a year at a time when his annual schoolmaster salary was £400, so it was a good earner for him. In his retirement he lived for many years in Steeple Aston, near to my old Oxfordshire home.

[Russell Burrows]

Crasher never got paid by Norton, but he got to keep prize money and any personal bonuses from oil companies. etc. Racing earned him between £400 and £500 a year at a time when his annual schoolmaster salary was £400, so it was a good earner for him. In his retirement he lived for many years in Steeple Aston, near to my old Oxfordshire home.

That's interesting, Graham, did you by chance ever meet him?

[graham houlihan]

That's interesting, Graham, did you by chance ever meet him?

No, unfortunately never met him. By the time I knew he was living nearby he had Alzheimers and shortly afterwards moved into a home in Oxford. A friend of mine met him when he was in the home and heard loads of stories, but Crasher was getting a bit confused, saying he had seen Jimmie Guthrie the week before!

[Russell Burrows]

Crasher never got paid by Norton, but he got to keep prize money and any personal bonuses from oil companies. etc. Racing earned him between £400 and £500 a year at a time when his annual schoolmaster salary was £400, so it was a good earner for him. In his retirement he lived for many years in Steeple Aston, near to my old Oxfordshire home.

Perhaps Crasher should have ditched the mortar board and concentrated on racing and he too might have reached Stanley's level of income:
http://velobanjogent...01_archive.html

Any old racers out there who reached the stage of being paid to race, want to talk about money?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 25 August 2011 - 18:19.

[driverider]

Right, now that the petrol bomb chuckers and the riot police have moved down the street.... Yes, I intially thought it looked a bit Velo like but after blowing it up (which I now can't seem to repeat) it does resemble an R7.

Pierre Monneret is attributed with finishing third on an AJS
They had a run round in 2008 commemorating the race

[Russell Burrows]

Pits stops are for whimps: can anyone ID this bloke?

[Rennmax]

Somewhere in Sweden according to the Shell 'Bensin' Russ ?
I guess his transponder has come adrift....

[fil2.8]

I guess his transponder has come adrift....

Nice one , Renn

[Hasselhoff]

Here are 3 guys talking about some early days...... http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

Edited by Hasselhoff, 01 September 2011 - 06:56.

[Rennmax]

Here are 3 guys talking about some early days...... http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

These 3 guys are youngsters by our standards Yep, some snippets from the Newcombe film, thanks

[Russell Burrows]

Pits stops are for whimps: can anyone ID this bloke?

Jimmy Simpson providing the entertainment, somewhere in Sweeden. Late 20's Norton?

[Rennmax]

Any idea ?