26 replies to this topic

[AndyMac]

Hello All...

Could someone outline the current procedure for a driver to start a race in a F1 car ? What is the driver interaction ? Is it all automated ? Drivers inputs, etc, etc, etc.


With that, can someone speculate or tell us why Webber seems to get poor starts.

Edited by AndyMac, 29 August 2011 - 23:08.

[miniq]

To my knowledge its:

Let the car idle (holding one clutch pedal [right side]) (7900rpm idle)
Red lights
Bring the rev's up (13,000rpm)
When lights go off release the clutch pedal slowly (not too fast or slow) & bring revs higher with throttle

Mark webber always kick into anti-stall which automaticly pulls the clutch back in I believe

Which could be either him not using the throttle enough OR the anti-stall settings are wrong

The rev's always seem pretty low for mark

The second clutch pedal is just for when starting the car I think (hold both levers in)

Edited by miniq, 29 August 2011 - 23:26.

[Cenotaph]

rev it up, release one of the clutch levers, keep the other one at a 50% or whatever the ideal is and when the car is really going, release the other lever. He is probably holding the clutch at a bad spot, way past whatever the bite point is, and the car activated the anti-stall.

[AndyMac]

Okay, the next question is then.... Why has he been able to fix it ? I love the guy, its just cruel to see the bloke start so badly all the time. How many wins have been lost due to bad starts ?

[krapmeister]

I don't know why they don't set him up for a bit more revs on launch, rather the car wheelspin a bit than drop into anti-stall/bog down all the time...

[engel]

The only automated parts are the bite point detection software (you can see it in action at the end of the formation laps when drivers do 3 burnouts, that's the software detecting the clutch bite point) and an antistall feature that engages the clutch if the RPM drops below 9000.

Beyond that it's driver operated and driver setup. All drivers have 2 clutch paddles, some have one paddle act just below the clutch bit point (so a slight release of the second paddle engages drive) others have drive engage on the first paddle and the second paddle is phase 1 of the race start, ie after the car starts moving.

Generally what Mark does is spend too long too close to the bite point, which results in the clutch overheating.

[BennyJohnson]

Okay, the next question is then.... Why has he been able to fix it ? I love the guy, its just cruel to see the bloke start so badly all the time. How many wins have been lost due to bad starts ?

Theres not much a Driver can do to prevent Anti-stall.

The 2 above posters are correct in a sense, but the start procedure is not determined by the driver.

Basically it starts when they leave the pit lane on the installation lap, they do a bite-point test by doing a practice start, and this determines the level of clutch that they set mechanically.

Then on the parade lap, the drivers are asked to do burnouts before they arrive at the grid, which determines optimum traction, and this determines the level of RPM the engine should be when starting.

The first of the two clutch levers is the bitepoint, basically the friction point in your road car, and that is a constant, then the other lever is the clutch itself, and that's all down to the driver, that is what can give them a blistering start.

What happened with Webber is that the car went into anti-stall after he released the first clutch, which is all set mechanically by the team, so the RPM level was too low, whether that's Webbers fault or the teams fault I'm not sure.

Should just point out that that is my understanding, and I'm not going off of facts or anything, so if I'm wrong call me up on it.

Edited by BennyJohnson, 29 August 2011 - 23:41.

[Iridescent]

People have explained it well so far. There is one clutch operated via 2 paddles by the driver. These are under the same mapping and must be fully open/closed at each end of travel i.e. operate by the driver and not preset by software. One is hold at the biting point and gradually released while the other is released immediately. Antistall is when the clutch kicks in to prevent stalling the engine. This could be activated due to various reasons such as no clutch engaged, too slow/fast release of the paddle, lower RPMs, incorrect choice of biting point or clutch settings in general.

Edited by Iridescent, 29 August 2011 - 23:52.

[krapmeister]

Theres not much a Driver can do to prevent Anti-stall.

The 2 above posters are correct in a sense, but the start procedure is not determined by the driver.

Basically it starts when they leave the pit lane on the installation lap, they do a bite-point test by doing a practice start, and this determines the level of clutch that they set mechanically.

Then on the parade lap, the drivers are asked to do burnouts before they arrive at the grid, which determines optimum traction, and this determines the level of RPM the engine should be when starting.

The first of the two clutch levers is the bitepoint, basically the friction point in your road car, and that is a constant, then the other lever is the clutch itself, and that's all down to the driver, that is what can give them a blistering start.

What happened with Webber is that the car went into anti-stall after he released the first clutch, which is all set mechanically by the team, so the RPM level was too low, whether that's Webbers fault or the teams fault I'm not sure.

Should just point out that that is my understanding, and I'm not going off of facts or anything, so if I'm wrong call me up on it.

Apparently Seb was very very close to having the same thing happen to him, so I'm inclined to think that perhaps the rpm level was set too low for both cars...

[Bruce]

Mark Webber is sitting in his cockpit on the grid of the 2011 Belgian Grad Prix when a thin, reedy,voice disturbs his concentration via the radio receiver in his Helmet....

"Maark?" (accompanied by the sound of papery fingers being rubbed together)

MW (huh?)

"Mark - rhemember ze end of ze race in Angland? Vhere we askt you to hold ze position?" (accompanied by the sound of asthmatic wheezing, and a white cat being stroked)

MW "(huh? What - the lights are coming on! Strewth!)

"Please to enjoy zee start Mark... ha ha ha (receding) {click}"

Edited by Bruce, 30 August 2011 - 00:06.

[AndyMac]

Why doesn't Webber have the same issue from the pitbox ?

[Alfisti]

TBH I find the whole thing odd, very, very bloody odd. This is a sport where the teams look into the most minute details to get everything right and god knows that of all people Newey is a detail freak.

So why has this been allowed to go on for so damned long?

Webber himself came from Queanbeyan, Queanbeyan FFS, to get to F1. He's likely not the most talented bloke on the grid and christ knows he had no money or sponsor so he methodically worked at his weaknesses to get himself where he needed to be. I remember in 06 he decided to go real wide into T1 and get a good run for T2 so made up places after poor starts in 05.

So why has he allowed this to go on for so damned long?

It's baffling, something is going on we are not being made aware of.

[FTATRWeSaluteYou]

Webber has never been good at starts. Its hard to recall any races where he makes up more than two places from the start. Its hard enough to find races where is able to hold postion.

Seb hasnt really been able to start well either. So it points to Reb Bull never quite understanding or perfecting their start procedures.

Webber has been at the Red Bull team for most of his Career, Before Red Bull it was Jaguar. So its obvious to me that the Milton Keynes team has never been able to get this right. Marks never been in a fast starting car like the Mclaren, Renault or Mercedes/Brawns. So being crap at starts and also coupled with the fact that Red Bull Jaguar have never been good starting cars then its a big problem. I dont think it will ever get better unless Red Bull can find out the system that Mercedes, or Mclaren or Ferrari use.

[engel]

TBH I find the whole thing odd, very, very bloody odd. This is a sport where the teams look into the most minute details to get everything right and god knows that of all people Newey is a detail freak.

So why has this been allowed to go on for so damned long?

Webber himself came from Queanbeyan, Queanbeyan FFS, to get to F1. He's likely not the most talented bloke on the grid and christ knows he had no money or sponsor so he methodically worked at his weaknesses to get himself where he needed to be. I remember in 06 he decided to go real wide into T1 and get a good run for T2 so made up places after poor starts in 05.

So why has he allowed this to go on for so damned long?

It's baffling, something is going on we are not being made aware of.

Webber was burning clutches up since his Jaguar days, methinks it's him not another RB conspiracy

[HaydenFan]

I swear a thread only a month or so ago was about this, but DC has a good explanation.

[Alfisti]

Webber was burning clutches up since his Jaguar days, methinks it's him not another RB conspiracy

Oh I don't think it is, i just don't see how two parties with a reputation for looking into and solving such things cannot get on top of it.

[PNSD]

As some will say, the same reason Rubens got all the poor starts in 2009

[primer]

Webber prolly just has a brain fade due to the pressure at the start. I doubt it is something sinister otherwise Webber and his media pals would be moaning like a ***** in heat right now.

Edited by primer, 30 August 2011 - 04:14.

[Cenotaph]

it's not like Webber fails so dramatically everytime. Interestingly enough, he did the exact same thing last season at Spa from pole. So maybe he can't handle the Spa start setup well and that's all there is

[AirWebber]

There is a classic story about lauch metods told by Rubens in his British F3 times against DC.

Rubens had the better race pace, but DC strated better and was often accused of jump start.

Rubens used to start by the traditional method.
Rev the engine over the max torque RPM and then modulate the thrpttle to avoid wheelspin [= less traction].

After being owned by DC a couple of times, one day when RB started right beside DC, RB observed DC procedures.
DC used to rev his engine to the max RPM and then release the clutch at once.
Rubens strated to use the same technique and became the series champion, by cancelling DC's strong points.

As seen several times and again in Spa, maybe Webber should do the same.
Instead of starting at around 14.000 rpm, go to 16-17k and release the clutch and the engine won't stall.
It's not the best start, but it is constant.

[taran]

There is a classic story about lauch metods told by Rubens in his British F3 times against DC.

Rubens had the better race pace, but DC strated better and was often accused of jump start.

Rubens used to start by the traditional method.
Rev the engine over the max torque RPM and then modulate the thrpttle to avoid wheelspin [= less traction].

After being owned by DC a couple of times, one day when RB started right beside DC, RB observed DC procedures.
DC used to rev his engine to the max RPM and then release the clutch at once.
Rubens strated to use the same technique and became the series champion, by cancelling DC's strong points.

As seen several times and again in Spa, maybe Webber should do the same.
Instead of starting at around 14.000 rpm, go to 16-17k and release the clutch and the engine won't stall.
It's not the best start, but it is constant.

And let's not forget, Barrichello had similar (repeated) problems when driving the Brawn in 2009 which arguably cost him the world championship. And Brawn wasn't able to solve that either.

So its not as simple as twiddling with the settings, changing revs or the bite point....

[marcoferrari]

And let's not forget, Barrichello had similar (repeated) problems when driving the Brawn in 2009 which arguably cost him the world championship. And Brawn wasn't able to solve that either.

So its not as simple as twiddling with the settings, changing revs or the bite point....

Strange that it happens only to "unofficial no. 2 drivers"...

[Gridfire]

Frankly given Vettel's pace and pitstop strategies, Mark would probably have won this race with a better start. He lost so much time due to the poor start and then the resulting traffic, that the 4 second gap at the end to Vettel would surely not have been enough even if Vettel was managing his pace from the front. It does make you wonder what is happening in this team, and I'm not usually a tinfoil hat wearer.

[SpeedRacer`]

There is a classic story about lauch metods told by Rubens in his British F3 times against DC.

Rubens had the better race pace, but DC strated better and was often accused of jump start.

Rubens used to start by the traditional method.
Rev the engine over the max torque RPM and then modulate the thrpttle to avoid wheelspin [= less traction].

After being owned by DC a couple of times, one day when RB started right beside DC, RB observed DC procedures.
DC used to rev his engine to the max RPM and then release the clutch at once.
Rubens strated to use the same technique and became the series champion, by cancelling DC's strong points.

As seen several times and again in Spa, maybe Webber should do the same.
Instead of starting at around 14.000 rpm, go to 16-17k and release the clutch and the engine won't stall.
It's not the best start, but it is constant.

That sounds like it would create a lot of wheelspin

[AirWebber]

That sounds like it would create a lot of wheelspin

Indeed, but even considering the wheelpin handicap I really doubt Webber's launch would be any worse in Spa.

[sesku]

http://www.heikkikov.../12?blog_id=142

hope it help.

[GerhardBerger]

Mark Webber is sitting in his cockpit on the grid of the 2011 Belgian Grad Prix when a thin, reedy,voice disturbs his concentration via the radio receiver in his Helmet....

"Maark?" (accompanied by the sound of papery fingers being rubbed together)

MW (huh?)

"Mark - rhemember ze end of ze race in Angland? Vhere we askt you to hold ze position?" (accompanied by the sound of asthmatic wheezing, and a white cat being stroked)

MW "(huh? What - the lights are coming on! Strewth!)

"Please to enjoy zee start Mark... ha ha ha (receding) {click}"