117 replies to this topic

[STORM]

I have my reservations about Michael, for obvious reasons. As a talent, yes, he has some. In some ways I don't think he has the talent anywhere near that Ayrton had, and I only say that because when Ayrton was in a car that wasn't as competitive he was still able to wring something more out of it and to be fighting for the championship. That 1993 season was a case in point, with the customer Ford engine in the McLaren.

1994, Ayrton always beat Michael in qualifying. Michael might have beaten him in the race, but there was always all that controversy about the Benetton having traction control.

The other thing is that Michael makes more mistakes than Ayrton did. He seems more vulnerable under pressure, whereas Ayrton was even stronger then. And his track manners are far worse than Ayrton's ever were. In my opinion he goes to extremes with which I, and many of the other drivers I raced with, would not have been comfortable. What Jacques said is totally right, I think.

He brings his day-to-day mentality to the track. I don't know why he needs to do some of the things that I've seen him do. It's like with Damon in Adelaide; he screwed up when he wasn't even under real pressure. And he did what he had to do. He turned in, but to be honest I don't think he turned in so much that, had Damon not been there, he would have ended up going over the inside curb. That in my opinion was marginal, though he knew Damon was there. What he tried to do to Jacques in Jerez was more blatant.

When we were team-mates, he definitely didn't help me after I'd been close to his pace in the first two races. He told Corinne to stop talking to my wife, Becky, and from the Saturday in Argentina onwards I was never included in the debriefs and never privy to the information that he had. That's what I believe to be the difference when I say that Senna and Prost behaved the correct way with each other off-track. They were never that petty. It always made me wonder just what Michael was afraid of.

It always made me wonder just what Michael was afraid of.
Afraid of Johnny kicking his ass!!

Source: itv.com

[Max Attac]

Hmm,

Well a lot of what Herbert says is true!

Yeah!

[Smooth]

Can you provide a link? The onlyinterview with Johnny re: MS is here: http://www.itv-f1.co...p3?mediaid=3640

Johnny Herbert: BENETTON, 1994-95
“We had some fun times and got on OK, but we didn’t socialise. Michael didn’t want anyone to work out what he was like.

“The only issue I had with him was about our wives. They used to get on OK, and then, suddenly, his wife stopped speaking to mine. That was Michael. It was just another way of distancing himself.

“He was always very selfish, but that’s F1. What I did have a problem with was the team saying yes to him all the time. From the second race I wasn’t allowed to compare his data with mine. His asking for this wasn’t the issue, the issue was that the team said yes. In terms of results, that was my most successful year, but if they hadn’t mucked me about, I could have been much better.

“As a person, Michael was nothing special. I’ve had much better relationships with Rubens [Barrichello], [Alex] Zanardi, Mika [Hakkinen] and [Gianni] Morbidelli. But Michael never wanted that.”


Or are you making this stuff up? Everyone knows JH is a whiner, and was beaten soundly by MS (and several others....) and he is looking for excuses to explain his lack of pace.

[The Swerve]

I couldn't agree more with what Herbert said. If Michael was so confident of his speed then what was the deal with excluding Johnny from seeing the data?

This board is so pro-schumacher now that it is getting so boring. Anybody who has a differing opinion is ridiculed and lambasted.

[alain]

Herbert is a clever man.Says the truth.

[dEMoN]

Originally posted by The Swerve
This board is so pro-schumacher now that it is getting so boring. Anybody who has a differing opinion is ridiculed and lambasted.

Really ? Why don't you go to Frans's forums then ?

[JayWay]

Swerve,

Having been a member of Atlas for a very long time, longer then you, I can tell you that Atlas is not pro Schumi. But I think that the board is going through some what of an evolution. For a long time this board was filled to the brim with Schuey hate propaganda. Now Schuey has succeeded in attaining a new rep as a clean driver, who stays out of mind games. People are changing there opinion on him. I think the result at least temporary is a period (right now) where Schuey is looked apon in no bad light. And also, it now appears that the evolution of driver hating has turned to JV to fill MS shoes.

I suspect this period will wear off (I hope so atleast) because it is a tad boring, but I think the days of Schuey hating to a large degree are over. Things should settle into a nice neutrel state after the season starts

[The Swerve]

Originally posted by JayWay
Swerve,

Having been a member of Atlas for a very long time, longer then you...

Yes O wiseone, by about 8 weeks!

Sorry, I disagree. I think Readers Comments is absolutely full of 'Schumacher Police' or those that hate him. You seem to have to be one or the other, and there is no room for the middle way (myself) who neither worship him in a homoerotic fashion or think he's the devil incarnate.

dEMoN's post is a classic example of this - I dare to say that perhaps Johnny might have a point, and suddenly I am tarred with the same brush as Frans.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that it makes very boring reading. I think that we might agree on that.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Heh Schumacher seemd to be up to the mind games and questionable driver even this year

He's a Ferrari champion though so somehow that's 'better'

[Max Attac]

Well,

Schumacher drives dirty. Herbert was right

Schumacher stand and stood no chance to Senna. Herbert right again.

Schumacher was afraid of giving data to Johnny. Herbert is right.

All is about Johhny telling what he believes and suddenly some persons start to insult other writers?? What is the matter with you Schumacher-fans? You are so hostile!!

[HartleyHare]

You are quite right, Swerve, and utterly wrong, Jayway.

And I suspect my first appearance predates either of you by some way.....

Herbert made the point then and he has made it now. MS is manipulative and uses dodgy methods to castrate his teammates. Herbert got stuffed in an underhand way, Eddie Irvine signed a contract agreeing to it, just to get the cash. And there are still MS fans so blinkered they cannot accept it? It is just laughable!

The Benetton was proved to have had traction control, but we won't let the facts stand in the way of worship, will we? There are legitimate reasons to be a fan of MS - he is quick and committed; but ignoring all the other qualities he displays and acts he commits in the name of fandom is blinkered and facile. But be my guest, carry on as before...

[B.Traven]

Johnny who?
Isn’t that little envious bastard that inherited three winning just by luck?
Small Johnny is just that - small. A poor devil that has not the nobility of character to admit something that everybody knows : Schumcher is simply a much better driver than he is. Michael is an F-1 legend, while Herbie is just a naught , both as a driver and as a human being. While Herbie will be totally forgotten tomorrow morning, Schumacher is one of the great ever.
Meaningfully, the really important teammates Schaumacher had totally disagree with Herbie. Especially those with prestige like three times World Champion Nelson Piquet or Ricardo Patrese.
Johnny Doe , simply does not mater.

[The Swerve]

Making derogatory comments about Johnny's worth as a human being is beyond pathetic.

I stopped reading after that....

[Brent]

This board is so pro-schumacher now that it is getting so boring.

Wrong. All F1 forums rave about Schumacher. Can't get away from it.

What really amazes me is why don't some of you guys just sit back and watch him while you can? What will you moan about when he retires?

[The Swerve]

No one is moaning about Schumacher, I neither despise or like the man, as previously stated. I am complaining about the abuse dished out on those who don't think the sun shines out his arse.

Of course, you would have known that if you read the thread properly.

[Brent]

oh ok, sorry.

[Raelene]

A REAL PRO SCHUMACHER FORUJM ???

Yeah, one that let's Frans post blatent lies and then edits the posts from people calling him on it.... and leaves his messages untouched...

[Brent]

Yeah i hear ya Raels! How's the weather over your side of town?

[The RedBaron]

My point entirely Raelene

[Pacific]

I think Herbert is telling the truth, but that's all a well-known fact, what he did. Apparently Herbert said the problem wasn't with Michael asking, it was with the team saying yes. That shows that Benetton was not committed to Johnny. It doesn't really put Michael down in any particular way, he's an F1 driver trying to gain an advantage, but the fact that Benetton let him wither on the vine...that's a legitimate beef that Johnny has.

Thus, you can't really compare Michael and Johnny based on their time together at Benetton. Michael is probably still the superior driver, but not by the large margin most people believe. At least the margin most Schumacher and Johnny-bashing fans believe he is. I still think Johnny was immensely talented, and did quite well considering his 1988 accident forced him to change his style because his feet and ankles were so messed up. No doubt having less sensitivity with the pedals hurt Johnny a lot. But he can't turn back time, so...

It's interesting that all these people slag Herbert, when Steve Matchett, a man in-the-know, says Herbert may have been nice to a fault.

Lastly, this often is not Herbert calling a press conference to say this, it's the media contacting him so they can get a story out to publish something contraversial or more interesting to the gossip type F1 fans.

[Raelene]

Brent

just went outside for a smoke and the sun is out and the boys have gone to the pool for a swim... how about you.

When the season starts up you;ll have to come over for our GP nights... you far from Papatoetoe?

Red Baron

I messaged Andy to ask why my message had been edited ... no response as yet. Can't understand why it was edited though - I just said that he had posted blatent lies and inaccuracies... I;ve never been on a forum where someone edited my posts. I thought "Atlas was one for free speech.... I guess I was wrong... big brother is watching!!!

[The RedBaron]

Raelene, I'm currently in correspondance with Pascal. I can't elaborate further, other than that I pointed out similar concerns to you, otherwise this message will also get deleted.;)

Papatoetoe.....are you serious? Is that a name of a town? [p][Edited by The RedBaron on 02-03-2001]

[Raelene]

Thanks RB

I wont' get too concerned, I have other forums which you are actually allowed to post your opinion without getting censored (and no it's not Daily F1 ;-)))

I much prefer forums without big brother watching.. and which people actually discuss facts, not what some hater has poster...

admins....feel free to delete... I'm sure youw ill anyway.

[BuzzingHornet]

Originally posted by The Swerve
This board is so pro-schumacher now that it is getting so boring. Anybody who has a differing opinion is ridiculed and lambasted.

Agreed.

[The RedBaron]

Similar gripe to DC & JV....if Herbert felt he was being treated unfairly, why didn't he confront Michael or the Management face-to-face???. If your job is on the line that's the least one would be expected to do. All these comments many years later doesn't show Herbert in a positive light IMO.

[Daemon]

I usually hold every F1 dirver in high regard, but after Johnnys outburst, I'll remember him as a whiner who couldn't make the grade, so chose to lay the blame for his failures at others doorsteps.

The main question I have is: "If Herbert was so close/better/infinitely superior, then why did he not use his OWN techniques, telemetry, skill, and go out there and beat Schumacher".

Feel free to answer with any explanations, I'd be interested to hear them. My own answer to the question - Because he simply could not. If Johnny was even close to the speed and skill of Schumacher, then why does Schumacher have 3 WDC, and Herbert 3 race wins?

Johnny was very unlucky when he was on the verge of F1, with that massive debilitating crash in F3000. He was so impressive in the Junior Formulae, that he looked to be a definate WDC ofr the future. He never seemed quite the same afterwards, although he was definately and above average driver who earned and proved his spot in F1. He was very popular and respected, so Its a shame he had to come out with such a personal broadside for no apparent reason.

[The Swerve]

Obviously he wasn't going to go into details about the situation while he was still under contract AND relying on the team for his race situation.

Flav had made his choice, Johnny knew it and Johnny had to shut up and put up with it.

I don't think Johnny is trying to kid himself and say that he was the better driver but the point he made was that he wasn't allowed to compete with Michael on an equal footing.

ALSO, this whole nonsense has sprung from a few comments made casually in an interview - which most of you have not read. I posted a link to it a few weeks ago, but nobody read it because it was more fun to slag the guy off rather than find out what he really had to say.

[Nikolas Garth]

JH's accident before he entered F1, destroyed him essentially. That is a mini-tragedy if Herbert was as good as The D'Mouse stated.

His F1 career was filled with frustration, for him and his fans.

[Brent]

Papatoetoe.....are you serious? Is that a name of a town?

hehee try Maingatainoka or Paikakariki for size?

I'm at Westharbour Raelene so it's a bit of a hike but i'd love to come over one night (although i'm in Melbourne next month). I'll email you

[The Swerve]

I love reading peoples private messages.

[Raelene]

good for you Swerve - just ignore this one

Brent

We'll be in Melb next month too for the GP

[Brent]

voyeur?

[The Swerve]

Not by choice....

[Paste]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet

Originally posted by The Swerve
This board is so pro-schumacher now that it is getting so boring. Anybody who has a differing opinion is ridiculed and lambasted.

Agreed.

Yeah, me too.

[Ricardo F1]

Count me in. The most annoying thing is that 90% of the non Schu worshippers still think he's the best driver but the pro-Schumi crew don't see that as being enough!!! You're not allowed to mention another driver in the same breath . . . .

[The RedBaron]

RicardoF1, your beginning to sound like Herbert!

[Ricardo F1]

Damn! I think you're right . . . is that why my foot aches?

[selena]

Being a fan of Schuey and also Herbert, I can see things in a balanced manner. JH is airing his grouse that the team always said yes to MH. He is only giving an account of what happened to him during his days with MS and the Benetton team when they were team-mates. I do not take anyone's side in this matter.

[The RedBaron]

That's my point B.Tavern....same as DC and JV.....they both complain and play to the media. When Senna had a problem with a driver, he approached them after the race and balled them out! Same with Schuey when he was punted off by Zonta last year..." I will have to have words with Ricardo" without being to specific. By contrast when Zonta punted Jax off, what was Jax response? It was the " The guy is an idiot" and who was his audience? Did he approach Ricardo? ...no, it was once again in front of the media.

[Pacific]

Now a person can say "If Herbert was so good, how come he didn't use his own telemetry, etc..." Well, he did. The question then becomes, why is it Schumacher had to use his AND Herbert's when Herbert only got to use his own and when Herbert wasn't included in team meetings and the like? You can't hold Herbert to one standard and then completely disregard Schumacher.

As far as confronting management, what is he going to do? They already informed him he wasn't getting Schumacher's telemetry and stuff anymore. That was THEIR decision with Michael's. Management had spoken. There was no middle man about this, the Benetton team undermined their own driver.

And then Schumacher left and ever since then they've been going down hill. That's what happens when you put all of your eggs into one basket and then the basket leaves and paints itself red.

We'll see what Benetton/Renault can do this year, but so far in testing Jenson and Giancarlo haven't been too high up, but it doesn't necessarily mean a WHOLE lot. Obviously we'll see as the season goes on.

And again, I must agree with some others here that many Schumacher fans are not tolerant of other people liking other drivers and even questioning that other drivers are close to Schumacher. Like Hakkinen and JV for instance...the JV fans and the Schumi fans get along great. Of course, the JV fans tend to not be overly understanding with the fans who like other drivers either. Oddly enough, drivers' fans start to reflect the perception of that driver. Needless to say, MS and JV (not Jos Verstappen) have non-track/media personnas. MS is the arrogant one and JV is the big-mouthed one. (But that's only the side we get presented...still, that perception seems to be reflected by many of the fans of both of those drivers.)

I guess I kind of like all of the F1 drivers. I can see faults in all of them, and I can see positive things in all of them as well. I like some F1 drivers more than others, but there's no F1 driver I dislike. I just wish that certain fans wouldn't go nuts when non-superstar F1 driver's fans talk positively about their driver. Even if we don't mention Schumacher or whomever.

It's like, how dare I think Gaston Mazzacane earned his sponsorship. He may not be the greatest, and he's not my most favorite, but he's widely slagged and people just seem to glance over how good Mazzacane did at the track everybody was new at, Indy.

Everybody knows Gaston is going to get second-class treatment at Prost. Let's see, fast Frenchman who is a friend of Alain's or the improving, non-big-name Argentinian...Mazzacane would have been better of staying at Minardi/European Racing, because he'd have at least gotten good treatment. But PSN had other plans.

[Williams]

I found one point that Steve Matchett made was interesting. Benneton made the mistake of never keeping an experienced #2 driver on staff. They always were let go after one season. In 94 they went through three drivers, although admittedly there was not a lot of choice with JJ Lehto. Instead of developing a good steady number two who could have perhaps pushed Schumacher a bit, picked up more points in his wake, and perhaps even become good enough to have provided some continuity after he left, they were constantly canning drivers. Herbert was another victim of that policy.

Having said that, I don't think Herbert is gaining anything by his post-career whining, though I suppose he could be making excuses to increase his chances of getting into CART someday. Sorry Johnny, but if you were willing to hang in at Benneton for that long under those conditions, then you have to accept some of the blame for the state of your career. As soon as the team came to him with this crap about not sharing telemetry, he should have started making other plans, early, while he reputation was still intact. I think Johnny was being a bit of a doormat here.

[Brent]

A remark here by Pacific.

As far as confronting management, what is he going to do? They already informed him he wasn't getting Schumacher's telemetry and stuff anymore.

Pacific, everything i've seen you post has been pretty much spot-on, but i'd like you to prove this comment. Go on, have a go.

[Billy]

Johnny Herbert on telemetry data at Benetton 1995

"I think that only started because in Brazil I qualified fourth, just behind him. We went straight to Argentina and it all started there. He came up to me and said: 'This thing of the data. There's probably things that you do special which you don't want me to see, and there's things I do that I don't want you to see, so has Ross [Brawn] spoken to you about changing it?

"I understand it from Michael's point of view. I think what he does is how a racing driver needs to be - very selfish. He doesn't give the other guy a chance to get close to him.

"But Flavio should have told him it was a team effort. My engineer would sometimes call up his data and I'd be looking at it out of the corner of my eye while he was on the other side of the desk. Pathetic really. But he never left the room. Even if you stayed there till 9.30 at night he'd still be there. Later on in the season I could see the data but by then I wasn't a threat."

On Flavio Briatore:

"They weren't expecting me to win a race. Flavio and Michael used to do their jumping around bit and all the cuddling. Flavio was there when I came down off the podium at Silverstone but you could just see in his face it wasn't honest at all.

"Then I won Monza. It was the long walk from the parc fermé down to the podium. He pulled a sort of little sneer. He went onto the podium, took his trophy and went. That was it. He didn't even say a word. But I was chuffed."

[Pacific]

Thanks Billy.

Again, what Herbert says is so much a damnation of Michael Schumacher as it is the Benetton team, the way I see it. Because Herbert qualifies that as "the way a driver probably should be."

I still think Herbert was one of the most talented youngsters back in the late 80's, a definite future WDC, but that wreck ruined things. The doctors nearly amputated, but they all decided against it. (Certainly Johnny was against it.) The fact Herbert came back and was rather fast I think says a lot about Johnny's determination, character, and his love for auto racing and F1 at that time. But, over all of those years, I think Johnny got sick of the politics of F1 and last season with Jaguar...I'm not certain Herbert was completely focused, not to mention Irvine was getting most of the attention. And what do you expect, Irvine is the driver on the multi-year contract who is in charge of developing this team as a driver and Herbert was in his last season, so...

It's too bad that Herbert wasn't able to get a CART ride, I was looking forward to it, but also, I'll enjoy seeing Marcel Tiemann at Zakspeed, because I don't know him as well and it'll be fun/interesting to see how he develops. It's always neat to see younger drivers get a chance. (Marcel isn't THAT young, but still...) The whole CART line-up is very interesting this year. We look to have 34 cars at each race! That's mighty impressive. If only Swift could get their team off the ground, we'd have 36 cars. And PRG should be much better this season since they have a more experience AND they've had all this time to prepare. Even though they'll be using year old Ilmors...I'd expect Luiz Garcia and Michael Krumm to do a decent job for PRG. (PRG was the worst team last season, basically what I'm saying is I expect the field to be a bit tighter than last season with even more cars!!)

[Bob Nomates]

GO JOHNNY GO
JOHNNY BE GOOOOOOOOOOOODA!

[Rudolf]

Johnny just go. Go Away! Johnny really is doing my head in. Like come on! Same old story. You'd think that by him retiring that would be it and you won't have to hear him complaining any more, but just like Damon Hill, he just doesn't seem to go away. Please, just spare me and GO! :yawn: :yawn:

[TailHappy]

Raelene,

Hi there. Couldn't help notice you saying you're from Ackl. I'm down south a couple of hours in the sunny bay of plenty.

Just a neigbourly hello.

Cheers
TailHappy

[Brent]

Thank's Billy and Pacific.

And hi TailHappy.

[HartleyHare]

Excellent stuff, Pacific. JH was an amazing talent blunted by an horrific accident who still won 3 GPs despite not always having the best equipment. Compare his achievements and opportunities to the rather more vaunted Jean Alesi and then review your opion of JH if you think ill of him. He will be sadly missed. I am reassured to read that I am not alone on the board in thinking so.

And the suggestions he should disappear and shut up are crazy. Are you people not interested in F1 at all?! Don't you appreciate the insight? Shame on you.

[Gladiator]

Johnny H, has his opinion and I respect it and I think he ís right in every word he said.