46 replies to this topic

[R.W. Mackenzie]

A topic on another site caused me to trip over the history of this particular chassis.

It apparently first hit the track as a spare for Jim Clark at the 1965 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch. From there it seems to have had a very successful run during the balance of that season:

Syracuse GP 1st Jim Clark
Belgian GP 1st Jim Clark
British GP 1st Jim Clark
German GP 1st Jim Clark
Italian GP 10th Jim Clark
Mexican GP Rtd Jim Clark

In other words, this chassis won four of the six Grand Prix races that took Jim Clark to his second World Championship.

In 1966 this chassis started off with a 2.0 litre Climax engine and ran the following races:

South African GP 1st Mike Spence
Monaco GP Rtd Jim Clark
Belgian GP Rtd Jim Clark
French GP Rtd Pedro Rodriguez

(Between the French GP and the British GP the Climax engine appears to have been replaced with a BRM unit and raced with that brand for the rest of its F1 career.)

British GP Rtd Peter Arundell
Dutch GP Rtd Peter Arundell
German GP 12th Peter Arundell
Italian GP 8th Peter Arundell
United States GP Rtd Pedro Rodriguez
Mexican GP 7th Peter Arundell

In 1967 it again ran with a BRM engine now shown as 2.1 litres in the following races:

BRDC International Trophy 4th Graham Hill
Monaco GP 2nd Graham Hill
Canadian GP 11th Mike Fisher
Mexican GP DNS Mike Fisher

At this point I should give credit where credit is due. All of the above information came from Doug Nye's "The Single-Seat Lotus Formula 1 & Indy Cars". Included in the chassis by chassis history at the back of this fantastic book is the following entry for R11:

"BRM P56 V8 - Team Lotus 1965 - to Earl Chiles 1967 for Mike fisher and Pete Lovely - Paul Scott 1969 fitted Oldsmobile V8, believed retained 1978".

At this point in time I must confess to having a sick feeling in the pit of my gut. Back in 1969 or there abouts I recall seeing a "For Sale" ad in Autoweek for some car advertised as a Lotus with an American V8 stuffed in the back. Believe, me it was not a pretty picture. I sincerely hoped that this was not the fate of this most significant of all Lotus 33's.

The only history I could find beyond this point was at the "OldRacingCars.com" site which listed two events in which it was Entered:

1969

Seattle GP DNQ Paul Scott

1971

Seafair 200 9th Paul Scott

Now I have searched the web and searched this forum and have yet to find the answer to my question:

What has become of this extremely important race car?

Bob Mackenzie

[Davidson10]

According to John Tipler's book on the Lotus 25 and 33 (published 2001), it was brought back from Seattle by Robs Lamplough in the mid-1980s and "passed into obscurity in the private lock-up of a UK collector". It was, apparently, engineless at the time. Tipler also expressed his sadness that that such a significant car was neglected and hidden from view.
Don't know if this is of any help, but no doubt there are folk on here who know more up-to-date information.

[Tim Murray]

This agrees with what Allen Brown posted in this thread in 2005:

OK, let's be systematic about this.

R1, R2, R5, R10 all written off (but two replicated since); R3 disappears into the Parnell team's various wrecks and remaining parts presumably consumed into the 'Parnell' monocoque; R4 used to construct R13; R7 straight from Parnell to Donington in 1969; R11 went off to the US, ran in F5000, returned to the UK and is now in (very) private hands; and R13 went to New Zealand and ended up with the late John Dawson-Damer.

So that leaves R6, R8 and R9 as our contenders for European hill climbs.

[Allen Brown]

Good answer. Couldn't have put it better myself.

(I was drafting an answer but the Allen of 2005 beat me to it. Thanks Tim.)

[D-Type]

Is the very "private lock-up of a UK collector" located at Biggin Hill perchance?

[simonlewisbooks]

Is the very "private lock-up of a UK collector" located at Biggin Hill perchance?

Just what I was thinking! No doubt it's now utterly immaculate...and possibly shrink-wrapped too!

[Macca]

I don't think it's with BCE - if so, he'd probably have commissioned a new FWMV from Tony Mantle or BRM from Rob Hall by now. The owner I last heard of is also noted as the owner of 43/R2.

R3 interests me - the Parnell monocoque F1 1.5L was narrower and different to a Lotus; the 1968 3L F1 monocoque might have enough of a Lotus about it to cause confusion [even to a senior historian/author :-) ] but a photo in Motor Racing in '68 doesn't look like one; and the Parnell sports car had nothing in common. So what happened to R3 after it's shunt in Mexico in '66? I wish someone who knows Tim Parnell would ask him........

Paul M

[f1steveuk]

When I worked for the small one, he didn't have any Lotus cars, and while being involved in the Bahrain event last year, there were no Lotus cars on the list of cars he was sending either, so I'd be pretty certain it's not in his hands.

As an aside, is this the car that wone three races on the tro using the same tyres??

[D-Type]

Hmmm, a clear case of signature justification on my part

[Ray Bell]

To answer your question, Steve...

It would seem not. The occasion where a winning car went (as I recall) five races on the trot included a French GP at Reims.

[f1steveuk]

First off, that is the last time I try and post from a mobile device, my typing is much better than that!

My data base for 1965 says

Nurburgring 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11
Circuit van Zandvoort 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R9
Silverstone 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11
Clermont-Ferrand 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R6
Spa-Francorchamps 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11


So blatantly Clark can't have used the same tyres on the same car for five victories. I forget now where I heard this snippet. Did I hear it or is it an old wives tale??

[Ray Bell]

I'm pretty sure Jenks referred to the long string of races on one set of tyres...

I'm not so sure that 'the same car' was mentioned, nor that they all resulted in wins. From my recollection it was an explanation of why Clark was experiencing some slippery handling in some rain in that fifth race.

[f1steveuk]

I'm pretty sure Jenks referred to the long string of races on one set of tyres...

I'm not so sure that 'the same car' was mentioned, nor that they all resulted in wins. From my recollection it was an explanation of why Clark was experiencing some slippery handling in some rain in that fifth race.

That would make sense

[scheivlak]

When I worked for the small one, he didn't have any Lotus cars, and while being involved in the Bahrain event last year, there were no Lotus cars on the list of cars he was sending either, so I'd be pretty certain it's not in his hands.

As an aside, is this the car that wone three races on the tro using the same tyres??

I read that somewhere here about the 1963 season - so not about a 33.

[f1steveuk]

I read that somewhere here about the 1963 season - so not about a 33.

1963 would be

South African East London 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
Mexican Magdalena Mixhuca 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
Italian Autodromo Nazionale di Monza 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
British Silverstone 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
French Reims 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
Dutch Circuit van Zandvoort 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4
Belgian Circuit National De Spa-Francorchamps 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R4

So possibly on that one chassis you could keep the same tyres for a series of three or five races though they're not succesive race results

Edited by f1steveuk, 23 September 2011 - 17:22.

[Garsted]

According to John Tipler's book on the Lotus 25 and 33 (published 2001), it was brought back from Seattle by Robs Lamplough in the mid-1980s and "passed into obscurity in the private lock-up of a UK collector". It was, apparently, engineless at the time. Tipler also expressed his sadness that that such a significant car was neglected and hidden from view.
Don't know if this is of any help, but no doubt there are folk on here who know more up-to-date information.

Robs Lamplough ran a 33 in the Glover Trophy at Goodwood a few times, but it hasn't been seen for a few years. I'm not sure which chassis it was.

Steve

[Macca]

That was R10 (or R10'R' if you prefer - it was rebuilt from the remains of the car destroyed by Clark at the 1965 RoC at Brands) which is currently for sale as are all Robs' racing cars - I suspect he has retired. It was last seen in the Glover Trophy in '09.

Paul M

[Gary C]

It's probably in a lock-up somewhere in London.

[Macca]

Yes, word is the eccentric owner (H*** E*****) has many Lotus's which nobody ever sees and which he will keep until he passes away.

Hopefully they won't be beyond economic restoration by then.

Paul M

[Doug Nye]

I think the concern expressed in this thread would be appreciated. When I last heard a status report R11 was nicely wrapped in dismantled form and preserved in professional, climate-controlled storage.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 23 September 2011 - 20:31.

[Andy Arnold]

I think the concern expressed in this thread would be appreciated. When I last heard a status report R11 was nicely wrapped in dismantled form and preserved in professional, climate-controlled storage.

DCN

Would this be the same collector who has 72/7 another important car with 5 GP wins, I hope whoever has it had it put back to JPS colours and not left in the hideous brown/Orange of Team Gunston.

[Doug Nye]

That was R10 (or R10'R' if you prefer - it was rebuilt from the remains of the car destroyed by Clark at the 1965 RoC at Brands)...
Paul M

...ish.

DCN

[simonlewisbooks]

When I worked for the small one, he didn't have any Lotus cars, and while being involved in the Bahrain event last year, there were no Lotus cars on the list of cars he was sending either, so I'd be pretty certain it's not in his hands.

Does he have a particular dislike of Lotus (maybe of ACBC?)? Considering the quality and diversity of his collection it seems a very strange omission

[Catalina Park]

Does he have a particular dislike of Lotus (maybe of ACBC?)? Considering the quality and diversity of his collection it seems a very strange omission

Probably something that happened in 1970.

[Macca]

I think the great majority of his F1 cars fall under (1) Brabhams that he's kept ever since he owned the team, and (2) Ferraris that he acquired as the Albert Obrist collection, selling all the sportscars but keeping the F1s.

I don't know how or why he acquired the Mercedes, Auto Union, Connaught or Vanwall; but the last 2 have connections with his friend Stuart Lewis-Evans.

Paul M

[kayemod]

Does he have a particular dislike of Lotus (maybe of ACBC?)? Considering the quality and diversity of his collection it seems a very strange omission

It's not just Lotus though, how many McLarens does he have?

[nmansellfan]

BCE bought the Vanwall from Tom Wheatcroft, there's a cracking story about it (all of them in the book are!) in Tom's book, of which i can't remember for the life of me what its called at the moment!

Edited by nmansellfan, 28 September 2011 - 14:12.

[kayemod]

BCE bought the Vanwall from Tom Wheatcroft, there's a cracking story about it (all of them in the book are!) in Tom's book, of which i can't remember for the life of me what its called at the moment!

Thunder in the Park I was flattered when the copy I bought from Donington arrived autographed by Tom, I thought he must have remembered our brief chat, but I found out later that he'd autographed every single copy in the shop.

[Tim Murray]

My copy is also autographed, and I didn't buy it from Donington. I suspect that, just as with Life at the Limit, unautographed copies are few and far between.

[kayemod]

My copy is also autographed, and I didn't buy it from Donington. I suspect that, just as with Life at the Limit, unautographed copies are few and far between.

Some years ago, I remember seeing an item on a bookseller's lists, I think it might have been Edward Heath's Sailing a Course of my Life. It was described as "A very rare un-autographed copy", but despite that Tom's signed book has added value as far as I'm concerned. It's a cracking read as well, my favourite story is how he drove to some Leicester building site, unsilenced and along public roads in Sir Stirling's Monaco winning Lotus 18, which had arrived at the museum that morning on a trailer.

[f1steveuk]

It's not just Lotus though, how many McLarens does he have?

Three that I can recall. His F1 collection is a bit bigger and more varied than most people know. I know he had a huge soft spot for the 79, once saying to me "if Gordon had given me that I'd have put him up for a sainthood", but he just hasn't got any!

[Michael Oliver]

Would this be the same collector who has 72/7 another important car with 5 GP wins, I hope whoever has it had it put back to JPS colours and not left in the hideous brown/Orange of Team Gunston.

No, it's still orange and brown, or was when I interviewed the owner for my Lotus 72 book in 2002... I actually quite like those colours, a bit different from the multitude of black and gold cars around...

[Paul Parker]

To answer your question, Steve...

It would seem not. The occasion where a winning car went (as I recall) five races on the trot included a French GP at Reims.

From memory this would be R4 at Reims, but I repeat, from memory.

[mfd]

No, it's still orange and brown, or was when I interviewed the owner for my Lotus 72 book in 2002... I actually quite like those colours, a bit different from the multitude of black and gold cars around...

I guess the 72 has to hold something of a record for having appeared in no less than five tobacco colours

[barrykm]

No, it's still orange and brown, or was when I interviewed the owner for my Lotus 72 book in 2002... I actually quite like those colours, a bit different from the multitude of black and gold cars around...

Thanks Michael. I can tell you that the orange and brown Team Gunston colour scheme still means a great deal to South African fans, representing as it does a magical era in ZA motorsport, even if it does not appeal to all.

Edited by barrykm, 31 October 2012 - 15:23.

[JtP1]

First off, that is the last time I try and post from a mobile device, my typing is much better than that!

My data base for 1965 says

Nurburgring 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11
Circuit van Zandvoort 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R9
Silverstone 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11
Clermont-Ferrand 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 25-R6
Spa-Francorchamps 1 J Clark GBR Lotus Climax 33-R11


So blatantly Clark can't have used the same tyres on the same car for five victories. I forget now where I heard this snippet. Did I hear it or is it an old wives tale??

Twas 63, 4 races Monaco, Belgium, Holland and France all with R4. The thin tread left was a varied advantage in the changeable weather during France.

At the risk of calling DCN and Theme Lotus wrong, but my feeble memory says Arundell used a 43 at Zandvoort in 66?

[Tim Murray]

I fear your memory is letting you down again, JtP. According to both Motor Sport and the F1R Black Book Arundell used only the BRM-engined R11 at Zandvoort. Clark also practised it briefly. It would appear that Lotus took no 43s to Zandvoort.

[Spa65]

Twas 63, 4 races Monaco, Belgium, Holland and France all with R4. The thin tread left was a varied advantage in the changeable weather during France.

I don't have a copy anymore, but it may have been in Clark's autobiography, "Jim Clark at the Wheel" I distinctly remember him writing that Rheims was the fifth race on the same set of tyres in 1963. It was a calculated risk as well worn tyres were faster on the straights (his words).

Rheims was a very high speed cicuit so I can see the thinking. However his secret weapons he said, were the high speed curves around the back of the circuit that he said he went through faster than he thought possible. Don't think I'd fancy that on dodgy tyres.

[Doug Nye]

During the 1966 Dutch GP I walked around three-quarters of the circuit, and back, on the inside verge. At one point I came upon R11 pulled off the track with Pete Arundell digging around frantically in its vitals in an attempt to revive it. With a friendly Dutch marshal and despite a typically unfriendly Dutch copper we helped Pete as best we could, but R11 steadfastly refused to fire up again. I think the mechanics subsequently found that a wire had come off one of the ignition trigger poles beneath the bell housing. With the car standing in knee-high lush dune grass there was no way of looking under there...even if I for one had had the knowledge to attempt it - which I most decidedly did not. It was another low point in poor Arundell's painful season. I thought he took it well, considering. In retrospect the truth was that he did not...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 14 March 2013 - 21:30.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Spa65
I don't have a copy anymore, but it may have been in Clark's autobiography, "Jim Clark at the Wheel" I distinctly remember him writing that Rheims was the fifth race on the same set of tyres in 1963. It was a calculated risk as well worn tyres were faster on the straights (his words).

Rheims was a very high speed cicuit so I can see the thinking. However his secret weapons he said, were the high speed curves around the back of the circuit that he said he went through faster than he thought possible. Don't think I'd fancy that on dodgy tyres.

I don't know which race reports mentioned the five races on the one set...

In those times I read GP reports from Jenks, H. N. Manney III, in Motor Racing, Sports Car Graphic and Car & Driver, so it could have been any or all of them. I'm sure at least one implied that Chapman was doing things on the cheap by running these tyres so many times.

To know that they realised they might well be quicker at Reims makes a lot more sense. On the straights would be a no-brainer, but around the fast corners makes even more sense when you fast-forward eight years and everyone did the same.

And I don't think the tyres would have been 'dodgy' either.

Edited by Ray Bell, 14 March 2013 - 23:50.

[kayemod]

I don't know which race reports mentioned the five races on the one set...

I doubt that they did. Motor Racing's race report said that Clark's tyres had done three previous races.

"Just after a quarter distance Clark's Climax V8 became rough and was loth to rev higher than 8,500 rpm. He hoped for rain, so he could nurse his engine, and rain it did... only to bring a further problem, since he was using the same tyres as in the first three GPs, and their balding tread gave little drainage."

Hardly what you'd need at a wet Reims.

[Ray Bell]

Three previous Grands Prix, so this was their fourth Grand Prix...

But I feel sure that there was a race in Britain that was included that wasn't a Grand Prix.

And yes, it would be a problem in the rain under those circumstances!

[David Lawson]

I have almost all the reference books but there is no mention other than in John Tipler's Lotus 25 & 33 book, of the gearbox used in the Lotus BRM 2.1 litre R11 and I am keen to know what was fitted to the car at the 1967 Monaco Grand Prix.

In Tipler's book he states that R11 had a Hewland gearbox at the 1967 Silverstone International so I assume this would have been so at Monaco but could anyone please confirm this.

Thanks for any help.

David

[David McKinney]

Motorsport says Hewland at Monaco

[David Lawson]

Thanks very much.

David

[Roger Clark]

There's a photograph in Autosport that confirms this.

[Roger Clark]

I doubt that they did. Motor Racing's race report said that Clark's tyres had done three previous races.

"Just after a quarter distance Clark's Climax V8 became rough and was loth to rev higher than 8,500 rpm. He hoped for rain, so he could nurse his engine, and rain it did... only to bring a further problem, since he was using the same tyres as in the first three GPs, and their balding tread gave little drainage."

Hardly what you'd need at a wet Reims.

By way of contrast, Motor Sport said that Clark's second lap at Rheims was "2min 21.9sec on new tyres and with a full tank of petrol".