768 replies to this topic

[Charlieman]

...who might help with this grasping for straws...

I'm not grasping for straws. To use a different metaphor, I don't have a ferret in the race.

 

I presented a hypothesis: that body builders construct different bodies, if the body is to be painted or unpainted. Technicians (metal bashers) and engineering designers (pencil and numbers folk) make a design work according to simple rules; and they can't change the whole concept one day before it is presented before the public.

[VWV]

I just happened to stumble upon this on Youtube while searching for something else....

 

 

I have no idea if this is actual Rudi Uhlenhaut speaking.

[Henk Vasmel]

The voice is rather higher pitched than I would have expected, but there are other Youtube fragments where it is made clear that the person speaking is Uhlenhaut. He was born in London, so no surprise that his English is pretty good. I do however hear the word Aluminum, which is American English and not British.

He was at Mercedes-Benz in 1934, probably already connected to the racing department which he came to lead in 1936. So that would mean possibly first-hand experience. The recording, however, suggests that it was a story told much later, so contamination by other people's stories is a possibility. Anybody here read the book about him that appeared a few years ago?

[Vitesse2]

While post-race weigh-ins are now the rule, with drivers going round on their slowing-down lap to pick up marbles on the tyres, I'm very sceptical regarding the 'we cleaned off the oil' story. I can't see it having anything to do with the 1934-37 Formula - unless it was connected with a protest. It certainly wouldn't have been practical to weigh cars post-race - for the very reason that they would have had to be drained of all fluids, wheels removed etc.

 

And I don't recall anybody protesting the Mercedes ... apart from von Brauchitsch for his push start in the 1938 Coppa Ciano.

[DCapps]

Well, I am speaking on this issue at the IMRRC on Saturday, 9 June 2018, as part of the Center Conversations series.

[Charlieman]

The voice is rather higher pitched than I would have expected, but there are other Youtube fragments where it is made clear that the person speaking is Uhlenhaut. He was born in London, so no surprise that his English is pretty good. I do however hear the word Aluminum, which is American English and not British.

 

Rudolf Uhlenhait lived in the UK until he was eight years old. The English posh accent in this interview is not that of a man who lived in Germany for most of his life. The interviewee is a posh bloke -- very English. When he struggles to find the right word, the word is always an English one.

 

When the interviewee struggles to continue the interview, the words and tone are english.

[Henk Vasmel]

Rudolf Uhlenhait lived in the UK until he was eight years old. The English posh accent in this interview is not that of a man who lived in Germany for most of his life. The interviewee is a posh bloke -- very English. When he struggles to find the right word, the word is always an English one.

 

When the interviewee struggles to continue the interview, the words and tone are english.

I was only triggered by the word Aluminum. Is that English too, or is it American. I thought Alumin_i_um would be English as well as German. But I am a native Dutch speaker, so it was a sort of question to people with a better knowledge than me.

[Vitesse2]

I was only triggered by the word Aluminum. Is that English too, or is it American. I thought Alumin_i_um would be English as well as German. But I am a native Dutch speaker, so it was a sort of question to people with a better knowledge than me.

https://youtu.be/atjI3Fmjb8Q?t=21

[Vitesse2]

And there's also this tongue-twister:

 

"Are you copper-bottoming them, my man?"

 

"No, I'm aluminiumin' 'em ma'am."

[r.atlos]

The original voice of Rudolf Uhlenhaut in a TV report from the 1965 IAA (from about 1:20 min onwards): 

[uechtel]

I was only triggered by the word Aluminum. Is that English too, or is it American. I thought Alumin_i_um would be English as well as German. But I am a native Dutch speaker, so it was a sort of question to people with a better knowledge than me.

The German word is Aluminium, so it is not far-fetched to use the same word in English if you do not know better. Btw what is the American word for it?

[Vitesse2]

The German word is Aluminium, so it is not far-fetched to use the same word in English if you do not know better. Btw what is the American word for it?

See my link in post 710!

[Henk Vasmel]

I listened again closely and was surprised that I missed something the first time around. At around 1:50 he starts to say alum.... then possibly corrects himself to Aluminium. At 2:10, however he clearly says aluminum. This second occasion triggered me to think the speaker is American or American influenced. 

[DCapps]

Well, I am speaking on this issue at the IMRRC on Saturday, 9 June 2018, as part of the Center Conversations series.

 

(https://automobilean...cedes-benz.html)

[Vitesse2]

You might want to get Mr Heitmann to correct the typos in paragraphs 8 and 9, Don.

[Tim Murray]

... and paragraph 1.

[Vitesse2]

... and paragraph 1.

Yerss ..

[DCapps]

WATKINS GLEN, N.Y. (May. 21, 2018) - Don Capps, one of the foremost experts on the topic, will present "The Silver Arrows: The 1934 Eifelrennen and Neubauer's Dilemma?" at the International Motor Racing Research Center on Saturday, June 9.

The discussion will focus on the creation tale of the Mercedes-Benz racing cars, the "Silver Arrows" at the June 1934 Eifelrennen by then team manager, Alfred Neubauer. The talk will use photographs and materials directly from the Daimler-Benz archives that are contemporary to the time period.

Part of the IMRRC's ongoing Center Conversations Series, the discussion will be an open forum in which audience participation is encouraged. The talk, sponsored in part by the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of Commerce, will begin at 1 p.m. and is open to all. The Racing Research Center is located at 610 S. Decatur St., Watkins Glen.

The talk will be live-streamed on the Center's YouTube channel or via the Center's live-stream page on the website. The talk also will be archived on the Center's YouTube channel to watch in the future.

"The legend of the Silver Arrows has been propagated for decades," Capps said. "And with all due respect to the immediate success of the cars and thoroughbred lineage that Mercedes-Benz racing has achieved, it may not be all based in fact. Essentially, we take on the legend and correct the tale."

Capps, who has been associated with motorsport activities for more than 50 years, is a member and on the board of directors of the Society of Automotive Historians. He is Chair of its International Motor Sports History Section. The retired US Army Colonel also serves on the IMRRC Historians Council.

"The presentation encourages open discussion and an insider's look at the cars that truly revolutionized the sport of motor racing." Capps added, "Was the story of how Mercedes-Benz achieved unparalleled success an accurate depiction of innovation, selective memory or simply a tall tale for fun? Or a combination of all of these things? That's what we will be there to discuss."

It is historical fact that the Mercedes Benz "Silver Arrows" dominated Grand Prix racing from 1934-39 and again from 1954-55.

The original W25 race car, which was partially funded by the pre-war Nazi government, debuted at the 1934 Eifelrennen. At the time, a new formula for the class limited Grand Prix cars to 750kg. Neubauer recounted in later interviews that he demanded that the paint be stripped from the car to help meet the weight requirement. The car met the weight requirement and driver Manfred von Brauchitsch won the race.

The legend was born.

(http://www.racingarc...y_IMRRC_002.jpg)

The Racing Research Center is an archival library dedicated to the preservation and sharing of the history of motorsports, of all series and all venues, through its collections of books, periodicals, films, photographs, fine art and other materials.

For more information about the Center's work and its programs, visit www.racingarchives.org or call (607) 535-9044. The Center also is on Facebook at "International Motor Racing Research Center" and on Twitter at "@IMRRCatWG.

Edited by DCapps, 24 May 2018 - 15:46.

[Tim Murray]

Almost there:
 

...the paint be striped from the car...

[DCapps]

What is amazing, is that when the original announcement was being put together, all those were correctly spelled....

[Ray Bell]

Blame spell-checkers...

Everyone else does. And I hope it goes well for you on June 9, Don.

[D-Type]

And I hope it goes well for you on June 9, Don.

Seconded

[Lee Nicolle]

While paint adds weight a good percentage actually evaporates away when applied. Depending on how well those alloy panels were finished two litres of paint should be plenty, usually thinned 50/50 with thinners that does mostly evaporate.

However if 'bog' and heavy primer surfaces are used that is a good deal more weight.

Though the driver will probably lose two kilos in the course of the race, nearly as much weight as the paint.

[DCapps]

On the lead up to the short talk I gave at the IMRRC on Saturday, I did a fairly thorough review of the relevant literature (including this thread) and the available archival material regarding this topic.

 

One of the questions asked at the talk and one of the questions that keeps becoming apparent as one looks and considers the material is, of course, just what was Neubauer thinking? Aligned with that query is why has Daimler/Mercedes embraced such a -- to be blunt -- silly story in the first place?

 

Here is the note (English translation) that was sent out in the wake of the July 2007 symposium by then DaimlerChrysler:

 

Conclusions from the Symposium "Eifelrennen 1934"

 

On 24 July 2007 Mercedes-Benz held a symposium at the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center in Fellbach/Stuttgart to discuss the alleged and legendary incident of the paint stripping off two W-25 race cars during the night before the Eifelrennen in 1934.

 

What appears to be an eclectic topic to discuss at first sight has caught the eye of the brand community since the German publication Motor Klassik questioned the story in 1994. It has since turned out to affect the claim to authenticity and trust of the Mercedes-Benz brand in a subliminal fashion. The latest wave of media input on the matter occurred in June 2007 which is accompanied by discussions on the internet since 2002 caused changes on how the story of Mercedes-Benz racing is represented on the Wikipedia.

 

Two major lessons were learned at the symposium.

 

1) The often and easily drawn connection between the alleged paint stripping of white paint off to Mercedes-Benz race cars in order to confirm with weight regulations has nothing to do with the "birth of the silver arrows."

 

The company never officially claimed the deduction of the term "silver arrow" and protagonists of the era always offered much more detailed explanations of it dereived from. To our knowledge it was first used in derivative form ("silberner Pfeil") by radio reporter Paul Leven in 1932 commenting on Manfred von Brauschitsch's winniong of the German GP in his Mercedes-Benz SSKL with a silver streamlined body.

 

Although many attempts to somehow label the new class of 750-kg race cars after they were introduced in 1934 have to be the term "Silberpfeil" ("silver arrow") was not widely used until 1938.

 

2) The paint stripping incident is a very good story which took on a life of its own after it was first communicated in 1955. The public as well as our company "jumped on it."

 

There are good reasons to doubt the story -- or part of it -- as it has been transmitted through the decades as well as there are good arguments in its or in part of its support. We therefore want to call it legendary until further notice.

 

For Mercedes-Benz, however, the 1934 Eifel race is most important as the beginning of a historic series of motor sport victories which continued until 1939 and was revived from 1952 to 1955.

 

Mercedes-Benz encourages and supports the ongoing debate openly and without reserve.

 

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

January 2010: Press Release for Launch of the Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Team

 

The event opened with a welcome speech by Dr. Dieter Zetsche, CEO of Daimler AG and Head of Mercedes-Benz Cars before Michael Schumacher and Nico Rosberg presented the new Silver Arrows livery for the 2010 season on last year’s car. The team’s 2010 car, the MGP W01, will make its track debut at the first Formula 1 test in Valencia on Monday, February 1.

The legacy of the Silver Arrows goes back to the 1934 Eifelrennen when, on the evening before the event, the white paint was sanded off the Mercedes W25 race cars to meet the weight regulations of 750kg formula and the silver colour of the aluminium surface of the car appeared. This season, with the return of the Silver Arrows, the MGP W01 will shine in silver combined with a flow of iridescent silver shading. On the nose and on other parts of the car traces of black carbon fibre visible are visible.

 

////////////////////////

 

Links

 

https://www.mercedes...nniversary-w25/

 

https://www.mercedes...nz-w-25-750-kg/

 

 

//////////////////////////

 

I guess I must have missed the "further notice" regarding the change from "legendary" to "factual."

 

////////////////////////////////

 

Seriously, Tony Kaye and the others believers to the contrary, there simply does not appear to be any (as in none, nothing, zero) credible evidence that the W25 cars were white at the Eifelrennen or for that matter prior to that event.

 

For Mercedes-Benz, it appears that this is an issue of corporate ego, that is, its "brand."

 

Call the Neubauer story exactly what it is: a good story, but one that is not true. One might politely wish to consider it a "legend" or a "myth," but that still does not make it true.

[Charlieman]

The paint stripping incident is a very good story which took on a life of its own after it was first communicated in 1955. The public as well as our company "jumped on it." ...

 

Mercedes-Benz encourages and supports the ongoing debate openly and without reserve.

The obvious conclusion is that M-B recognises that "scraping paint" is a daft legend and changes its internal legend.

 

That is hard to achieve. M-B has to write a new load of promotional puff stories about the firms, M-B ad writers have to write according to the new stuff and nobody is presumed to have read lousy journalism.

[Vitesse2]

Don - I tried watching the live stream on YouTube, but it crashed at about 11 minutes in and despite several reloads I never managed to get it any further. I see there is now an archived version of the stream on YouTube, but it seems to commence at some time after the crash point and is just over 40 minutes long, so I guess there may be a chunk missing - will the whole thing emerge eventually?

[DCapps]

Don - I tried watching the live stream on YouTube, but it crashed at about 11 minutes in and despite several reloads I never managed to get it any further. I see there is now an archived version of the stream on YouTube, but it seems to commence at some time after the crash point and is just over 40 minutes long, so I guess there may be a chunk missing - will the whole thing emerge eventually?

 

Apparently, technology struck back, as it has a disturbing tendency to do at times, during the talk, so that there is a part one and a part two to the talk. The first part does not capture all of the beginning of the talk and there seems to be a gap to the second part of the talk.

 

Hopefully, the entire talk will be made available soon. (https://www.youtube.com/user/IMRRC)

 

Nothing really new or revealing during the talk, simply some aged, failed academic droning on and on....

[Bikr7549]

I was curious just how much weight the paint on a car like this could be. Using information from Pomeroys book on the W25B and some approximations and assumptions regarding dimensions, shape and paint properties I came up with an estimate of 213 square feet (20 m^2) painted area and 3.7 lb (1.7 kg) of paint for one coat for this. Primer and filler would certainly increase this. Post 193 suggests a change in weight after the supposed removal of 2.5 kg by scraping the paint off, so certainly in the ball park. I am not saying in any way that this adds substantiation to the old story, it is just interesting.

Edited by Bikr7549, 16 June 2018 - 17:06.

[D-Type]

When this was discussed previously, the general feeling was that the potential weight saving came as much from the filler, often lead, as it did from the paint itself.

[Lee Nicolle]

When this was discussed previously, the general feeling was that the potential weight saving came as much from the filler, often lead, as it did from the paint itself.

You would not be using lead to fill an ally body. Incompatible.

From what I understand prewar they had some type  plastic filler even then,,, bog for us Aussies and Bondo for the yanks.

And I doubt that  many panels produced semi production line would be blemish free. Quicker and cheaper too fill the imperfections. And ofcourse the gravel would tear the hell out of raw ally,,  as it does paint.

I suspect for this race they may have used some spare unpainted panels to phsych out the opposition.  Something that has happened in the sport forever!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 18 June 2018 - 03:14.

[tsrwright]

You would not be using lead to fill an ally body. Incompatible.

 

Oh really?

 

Try:

 

[jcbc3]

https://www.autospor...livery-revealed

[DCapps]

https://www.autospor...livery-revealed

 

Pathetic is perhaps the kindest word that crosses my mind regarding the story of the "birth of the silver arrows"....

[jcbc3]

Yeah, I grew up with the myth and was saddened when you guys shattered my illusions. You should think that Mercedes themselves would know better.

[JoBo]

Whatever happened - important is/was that the Mercedes and Auto Union cars became (almost) unbeatable. They would have been (almost) unbeatable even in purple with yellow spots.

 

JoBo

[Vitesse2]

Yeah, I grew up with the myth and was saddened when you guys shattered my illusions. You should think that Mercedes themselves would know better.

This is the West, sir: when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

 

We won't go into whether the 1894 Paris-Rouen was actually a race - which is a whole other conversation - but at least Autosport have inserted 'alleged' into the story.

[jcbc3]

Ensign made that happen. Now we just need a real journalist to ask Toto, why they are perpetuating the myth......

[JoBo]

Ensign made that happen. Now we just need a real journalist to ask Toto, why they are perpetuating the myth......

Old US-newspaper journalists wisdom: "If you need to chose the truth or the legend - take the legend!"

[Sterzo]

Yeah, I grew up with the myth and was saddened when you guys shattered my illusions. You should think that Mercedes themselves would know better.

No doubt they do, but their marketing people are 110% passionate about developing truth-adaptation strategies for the optimisation of global brand margin return.

[Vitesse2]

No doubt they do, but their marketing people are 110% passionate about developing truth-adaptation strategies for the optimisation of global brand margin return.

Congratulations. You win today's meaningless bullshit marketing speak award.

[JoBo]

No doubt they do, but their marketing people are 110% passionate about developing truth-adaptation strategies for the optimisation of global brand margin return.

 

...oh...thats a good one!

[Vitesse2]

Given today's happenings at Hockenheim, with both Hamilton and Bottas spinning off when the back end broke away, perhaps we can assume that putting the extra weight of all that white paint on the front upset the balance of the cars ...

 

A race Mercedes will no doubt wish to forget, although I have to say that the words hubris and schadenfreude both come to mind.

[DCapps]

 

Mercedes unveils special white F1 livery to commemorative 125 years of motor sport by Graham Keilloh on 25th July 2019 / Motor Sport

 

The white paint at the front of the car commemorates the traditional colour for German racing cars, which Mercedes originally raced with. Further back, the paint appears to have been scraped away to reveal silver metal underneath - a nod to the legend behind the creation of the 'Silver Arrows'.

 

As the (fictional) story goes, the team switched to silver for its W 25 car at the Eifelrennen in June 1934 because it was struggling to get the car under a maximum weight limit. The solution was to scrape off its white paint to make it lighter, leaving only the bare metal beneath. 

Traditional red numbers, plus a vintage badge and script also appear on the car.

 

Good heavens, even Motor Sport now realizes and recognizes that it is yet an example of Alternate Facts....

[Vitesse2]

Softy, softy, catchee monkey ...

[DCapps]

I have a question for Tony Kaye, if he is still here.

 

At Watkins Glen in the summer of 2018 and again in Melbourne in October 2019, I presented lectures on this topic.

 

In doing so, I reexamined the material that has been generated regarding the topic, especially that which Daimler Benz provided me from their archives.

 

As the folks from Mercedes did at the 2007 symposium, I used your "court briefing" as a guide to doing so.

 

Tony, do you still stand by your opinion as presented in your "brief to the court" that what Neubauer suggested happened in June 1934 was true?

 

As well as the belief of the W25 cars being white prior to that time?

 

For that matter, how about any others? I know that Karl still does, for instance.

 

Despite all my research and analysis into this issue, making sure that I was using the "Kaye Brief" as a guide, the scenario of events as presented by those supporting the Neubauer version of history does not survive the facts of the matter.

 

Using a wealth of Alternate Facts is the only way that the Neubauer story could possibly be true.

[Vitesse2]

Well, lookee here. MB Classic have built a replica of the Flying Cucumber. Guess what colour it is ... or rather isn't!

 

[ReWind]

From the archive of the "Süddeutsche Zeitung":

 
For the eagle-eyed ones: What do you see in this picture?

Edited by ReWind, 30 April 2020 - 17:58.

[Vitesse2]

Well, obviously a general training/practice session for the Eifelrennen. Not much going on, so maybe the unofficial session on Wednesday? We can see cars from both the main race and the voiturette class. Schmidt's Bugatti T35 #38 in the pits and Stolze's #18 T51A on track; although apparently with a mechanic and a wheel on board - which seems a bit casual for an official practice session. Off to help someone who's had a puncture out on the circuit?

 

And what appears to be a silver W25 in the distance. It certainly doesn't look the same colour as Stolze's.

 

TBH I'm more intrigued by that Alfa in the pits. Minozzi? He was a DNS. And that offset car at the front. A Monza? Widengren?

[raceannouncer2003]

I am getting the message, "Sorry, this image cannot be displayed."

 

Vince H.

[Tim Murray]

I am getting the message, "Sorry, this image cannot be displayed."

Vince H.

Is this any better for you, Vince?