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#601 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:48

Please do...

My e.mail address is below:


On its way !

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#602 Rob

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:10

The third picture shows a silver car reflecting a lot of light towards the camera, whilst the brake drums reflect less light, which accounts for the difference in apparent shade.

#603 bradbury west

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 21:04

As a perhaps interesting aside, see the right hand photograph on the middle line on the block of 6 shots on this link from the Transporters thread. They click to a good size for viewing, and it shows the victorious team returning home from the 34 Eifelrennen according to the caption.
http://www.classican...ver_arrows.html
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 15 January 2010 - 21:05.


#604 uechtel

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 16:15

I am still desperately missing the plausible "story".

Imagine for a moment you were Mr. Neubauer in 1934:
You found a new team, have new cars developed, start a big PR campaign.
Then you bring the cars to their first tests - no need to worry about the outfit too much as you are still trying to get them competitive so you concentrate on the technical side rather than on the colour of the cars.
The press brings reports about it, nobody objects the wrong colour.
Meanwhile also your major opponent brings up his cars for tests, also in silver. Again everybody is enthusiastic, nobody cares about colour.
You and your opponent bring the cars to the first race of the season. As you are still in the development phase again nobody cares about colour.
After practise you decide not to let your team start, because the cars are not ready enough for the race.
But your opponent runs in silver livery, starts the race, shows a mediocre performance and finishes third. Together with your retirement finally some reason to worry for the public, but still not about the colour.
After the race you return to your workshop quickly, as even if you think and have expressed your opinion, that you need much longer time for development you get the order, that the cars have to run at the next race a week later under any circumstance for the sake of the marque´s and the nation´s prestige and also for your own career. (still following the current version so far).

Now the first of my questions: If you were Mr. Neubauer, in this situation would you
a) try to invest every piece of manpower and resources to get the cars developed and competitive?
b) prepare your cars diligently, which would include some kind of "quality control" before they leave the factory, including put them on the scales if weight was an important matter?
c) decide that weighting is unnecessary and rather decide, that - even if the rules do not demand this - it is more important to have the car looking good in a new colour, so instead of weighting you tell the mechanics to get some new paint on them?

Correct answer: Of course as a person of perfectionism in a political and economical system in which being on the winner´s side is everything, no matter by which means, you decide for option c)...

Now you bring your cars to the next event. Again your opponent team is still in silver, and nobody cares, but by its last effort your team manages to bring two of your cars to the circuit in new perfect virgin-white colour (or was one of them still silver? The pictures show only one car for which remainss of white paint are said to be "proven"). During practise your cars behave quite promisong, but at the end of the day you learn that your cars (or at least the white one) would be slightly overweight if the new racing formula would have been valid for this race.


Now next question. If you were Mr. Neubauer, would you
a) don´t make any fuss about this as long as nobody outside the team asks you questions about the paint - and if so - play your and your company´s influence on the race organizers not to care about this if they do not want to be responsible for a humiliation of your nation?
b) explain your directors - and if necessary also to the public - that this is a non-formula-race, that you have concentrated on technical development in order to get a competitive car as early as possible, and that of course the 1 kilo will be removed until the next race, which is no problem at all, as there is enough time until then?
c) get into panic, order your mechanics to drop everything else, to stay awake for the night before the race in order to get the white paint removed and after this to fill their remaining spare time by putting a new thin layer of silver paint onto them?

Again the correct answer is of course c) - As a long experienced professional, employed by your country´s most important automobile factory, you have learned that improvisation, contreorder and panic are the keys for success. Suddenly it has become first and only priority to have the cars within rules, even if they maybe still completely unimportant at the moment, but for what sake ever...
So the paint has to go off, and even if you do not have a chance to get it removed from every part - no problem, as certainly nobody will take a look at such hidden parts like the louvres in the bodywork or the wheels, as you have always known that they will all do not care about outfit any more. That is why you also decide not to let them in bare aluminium neither choose a lightweight white paint now, a new silver painting keeps the mechanics fit and is also the better camouflage, even if you do not paint this over the remaining white spots on the car.

And finally, at the next race - the first on the international scene, on "enemy" ground and where now in theory colour should have mattered and with the weight problems obviously been solved in the meantime - now the silver colour is no issue any longer? No need for a "perfect" finish any more?

To me all this sounds not very convincing, but absolutely absurd. So what point do I miss?

Edited by uechtel, 16 January 2010 - 16:51.


#605 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:35

And finally, at the next race - the first on the international scene, on "enemy" ground and where now in theory colour should have mattered and with the weight problems obviously been solved in the meantime - now the silver colour is no issue any longer? No need for a "perfect" finish any more?


Interesting colour story.


Maybe "perfection" in telling fairy tails is more the core competence of the Mercedes PR Department. :lol: :lol:


#606 D-Type

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:51

How about this hypothesis:

White cars practiced. They were found to be marginally over the weight limit. As it wasn't a European Championship race, the weight limit and legality didn't really matter but non-appearance of the cars did matter. So, to show they had done something to reduce the weight they scraped off the paint and filler and claimed this had taken off enough weight. Honour was satisfied and the cars could start the race.
By the French GP when a legal weight did matter they had reduced the weight properly but decided to stick with the silver colour as it looked good.

Edited by D-Type, 16 January 2010 - 19:52.


#607 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:58

How about this hypothesis:

White cars practiced. They were found to be marginally over the weight limit. As it wasn't a European Championship race, the weight limit and legality didn't really matter but non-appearance of the cars did matter. So, to show they had done something to reduce the weight they scraped off the paint and filler and claimed this had taken off enough weight. Honour was satisfied and the cars could start the race.
By the French GP when a legal weight did matter they had reduced the weight properly but decided to stick with the silver colour as it looked good.

You need to substitute "Formula race" for "European Championship race", Duncan. There was no European Championship in 1934.

And the fact remains: there is no testimony from a reliable eye-witness to support the paint-scratching story. Nor one press report that mentions a change in colour between Saturday and Sunday. Nothing, nix, nada.


#608 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:19

How about this hypothesis:

White cars practiced. They were found to be marginally over the weight limit. As it wasn't a European Championship race, the weight limit and legality didn't really matter but non-appearance of the cars did matter. So, to show they had done something to reduce the weight they scraped off the paint and filler and claimed this had taken off enough weight. Honour was satisfied and the cars could start the race.
By the French GP when a legal weight did matter they had reduced the weight properly but decided to stick with the silver colour as it looked good.


That's - more or less - the fairy tail, sorry, story of the MB PR Department.

#609 Rob

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:50

And the fact remains: there is no testimony from a reliable eye-witness to support the paint-scratching story. Nor one press report that mentions a change in colour between Saturday and Sunday. Nothing, nix, nada.


Agreed. Neubauer himself didn't mention it until decades later. Plus, the whole 1933 Tripoli GP shambles that he invented suggests that he was quite partial to bending the truth towards a more romantic view of events.

There is no reliable proof that the cars were ever painted white. So by Occam's Razor, they were always silver.

#610 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 22:48

I'm with Vitesse and Rob amongst others on this. I find this piece of flummery deeply unconvincing. I have to say that I expected greater rigour from this VERY implausible interpretation of those negatives, whose quality is so poor they are in no way typical of the Zoltan Glass photography of which I have had first hand experience. Case still unproven, in my view - and the expressed opinions of both 'Motor Klassik' and of the so-called experts from the Polizei VERY suspect.

There is a world of difference in monochrome photography's rendition of reflections from multi-curvature thin-gauge panelling and of that from flat-plane heavy-gauge surface-machined brake drum material.

It is a huge leap to claim that such implausible differences are 'new evidence' of a white-painted surface versus bare metal. And I have to say that I do not believe a single word of it.

Posted Image

On the evidence of the difference in tone between the 'bare metal' brake drum tone and that of the body panels, these W125s negotiating the first corner of the 1937 Donington GP are plainly white-painted. Yes? Well-known fact? Yeeessss...riiiight... :rolleyes:

Posted Image

Ditto Lang's W154 in the 1939 German GP. Hands up who ever suspected that the works Mercedes-Benzes there were really painted white... Astonishing, isn't it.

Posted Image

Ditto Caracciola's W154 in the 1939 Swiss GP. Bear in mind here that if I had tinkered a little more with the Photoshop settings, these three images really would have shown a car which was even whiter than white...judging by these latest standards of comparison.

Pull the other one...do I hear ringing bells? As I said in the beginning. I expected better...

Copyright Photos from or via: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 16 January 2010 - 22:51.


#611 ensign14

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 22:56

And silver IS white. Heraldically speaking. The one represents the other. So a silver car is representing Germany as much as a gold one would represent Belgium. Of course no country ever had silver as its official racing colour as a distinction to Germany's white.

And the above all ignores the earlier von Brauchitsch silver Avus special.

#612 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:44

Well, I am glad that the discussion started again on these points.
After posting my thoughts after reading the Motor Klassik, I have thought that maybe I was the only one who found their new verdict strange since it was rather quiet for afew days.
Especially, since this is - as far as I see it - probably current MB-speak ? On the other hand, I have not yet seen any official word from MB about this new development found by their history expert.
I cannot resist to think that somehow tis might be connected with the return of the "real" Silver Arrows in F1 - maybe they will offically tell their new old story at the soon to follow team presentation for 2010 ? Just my thought, of course...

Cheers,
Ralf

#613 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:15

First, my thanks to Ralf for sending me the article. I very much appreciate your doing that and I thank you.

Second, I must reiterate that I see nothing in the article nor any additional evidence presented on this thread to suggest that the Neubauer story has any credibility.

Third, I would suggest that this is an excellent example of the the Jackets Corollary:

The Jackets Corollary: It is practically impossible to kill a myth once it has become widespread and reprinted in other books all over the world.


This corollary is derived from this statement by former RAF Squadron Leader L.A. Jackets, the former chief historian to the Air Ministry, as quoted in Richard J. Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, p. 169: "It is practically impossible to kill a myth of this kind once it has become widespread and perhaps reprinted in other books all over the world."

#614 Duc-Man

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 16:13

Gentlemen I suggest to let this subject rest. The eye-witnesses are either dead or to old to have a reliable memory.

I read this Motor Klassik article as well and I don't know what to make out of it.

Unless somebody pulls out colour pictures or film from that race weekend...any argument about it is nonsense.

#615 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 16:26

So, the study of history is nonsense? Well, I'll have a lot of time on my hand from now on... :rolleyes:

#616 Duc-Man

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 16:43

I don't say that the study of history is nonsens. This is just like any argument about the Wembley-goal 1966. Tenthousands of people saw it and there is still no proof if the ball was in or not...

#617 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 17:00

Gentlemen I suggest to let this subject rest. The eye-witnesses are either dead or to old to have a reliable memory.

I read this Motor Klassik article as well and I don't know what to make out of it.

Unless somebody pulls out colour pictures or film from that race weekend...any argument about it is nonsense.



I regret to inform you, but that you seem to be unable to make anything out of it is completely irrelevant. The clear preponderance of the evidence -- Tony Kaye being seriously mistaken in this case -- is that the machines were not white at the Eifelrennen and any chance of white paint being scraped from them to make the weight limit would be astronomical. The real, underlying issue here is exactly what is contained in the Jackets Corollary -- that this myth got started and then grew like kudzu, few ever questioning it. However, once someone took the trouble to begin looking closely at the alleged incident, the likelihood of what Neubauer claimed occurred began to be very, very questionable at best, and not true at worse. Unfortunately, it is the latter that is the case.

#618 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 19:39

No, it's not. It's immaterial what the ten thousand people saw, the referee acknowledged the goal (or not - I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to football), and that's the end of it. The rest is just stupid conspiracy theories.

With the silver arrows, they were either white or not white at the Nürburgring, and to this day no one has ever provided convincing evidence that they were, so it is the historians duty to refute these stories.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 17 January 2010 - 19:40.


#619 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 22:54

I'm inclined to thing there would be records in the Mercedes-Benz library that would refute it...

The team is famous for having done things methodically and logging what they did. I can't imagine that they did something as time-consuming as this without recording it and reporting it in their post-race brief to the directors of the company.

If their report to the heads following this race meeting doesn't mention it, then it simply didn't happen.

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#620 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 23:21

I'm inclined to thing there would be records in the Mercedes-Benz library that would refute it...

The team is famous for having done things methodically and logging what they did. I can't imagine that they did something as time-consuming as this without recording it and reporting it in their post-race brief to the directors of the company.

If their report to the heads following this race meeting doesn't mention it, then it simply didn't happen.

I think you mean a lack of records, Ray.

I wonder if the mechanics' timesheets still exist? Surely they must have claimed overtime for that overnight paint scraping session?

That was a joke, BTW.

Edited by Vitesse2, 17 January 2010 - 23:24.


#621 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 23:50

Look at that... a typo and all...

Should read 'I'm inclined to think...'

Don't understand what you mean here, Speedy... is there a lack of such records? Or are you saying a lack of records has allowed the story to prevail?

#622 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:06

I regret to inform you, but that you seem to be unable to make anything out of it is completely irrelevant.


Are you trying to tell me to shut up?
I said that I can't make anything out of that article in Motor Klassik. That doesn't mean I don't have my own opinion.

The clear preponderance of the evidence -- Tony Kaye being seriously mistaken in this case -- is that the machines were not white at the Eifelrennen and any chance of white paint being scraped from them to make the weight limit would be astronomical....


What preponderance of evidence?
I know that there is one photo of a sure white W25 and tho pictures of possibly white W25s at the AVUS the week before the Eifelrennen. I know there are pictures of silver W25 that were taken before the AVUS race. And there are this two photos of possibly white cars at the practise at the Nürburgring.
And there are lots of photos of silver cars during the race and afterwards.

And they are all b/w photos.

BTW: if the LKA or BKA analyses a photo to find out the colour of whatever...don't doubt the result. The german police is damn good in what they do and they are barely wrong with stuff like that.


#623 Rob

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:19

I know that there is one photo of a sure white W25 and tho pictures of possibly white W25s at the AVUS the week before the Eifelrennen. I know there are pictures of silver W25 that were taken before the AVUS race. And there are this two photos of possibly white cars at the practise at the Nürburgring.


Really? I've never seen a photo of a white W25. Even Mercedes admit that the vehicle at the press launch was silver.

#624 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:28

This looks pretty white for me.
Posted Image

#625 David McKinney

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:36

Yes, it does look white
But, as the huge weight of evidence now proves, we know it was actually silver

Have you read the whole thread?

Edited by David McKinney, 18 January 2010 - 11:36.


#626 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:40

Well I guess I overread that part.

But why did Caraciola describe the car as 'small and WHITE'?

#627 Rob

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 12:26

This looks pretty white for me.
Posted Image


That looks pretty reflective to me. Meaning that it was metallic, even silver :)

#628 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 14:12

BTW: if the LKA or BKA analyses a photo to find out the colour of whatever...don't doubt the result. The german police is damn good in what they do and they are barely wrong with stuff like that.


There is always room for doubt, which would certainly seem to exist in this instance.

Well I guess I overread that part.


I would suggest your actually reading the thread and once you have done that, then begin to carefully consider the evidence that has been generated over a period of years. After that, you might begin to see why what we are saying is based upon a close examination of the evidence as well as the discussion that has been generated over a rather lengthy period of time.

Contrary to Tony Kaye's assertions from several years ago, the likelihood of this paint-scraping episode having actually occurred during the Eifelrennen event is infinitesimal. The evidence generated so far simply does not support the story as related by Neubauer. Time and again we have waited for evidence that would contradict what has been presented thus far, evidence that would lend credence to what Neubauer related to Rowe. It just has not happened. It is very doubtful that it will happen.

Historians are still historians even if the milieu happens to be something as insignificant as the history of automobile racing. This tale was accepted without much in the way of questioning for many years, during which time it became embedded into the myth and lore of racing. Unfortunately, although it is a great story, it seems to be exactly that, a story. As Michael Ferner points out, it is the duty of historians to point out those items which simply do not seem to be true, to question them, to raise doubts, and then attempt to get to the bottom of things, to determine what actually took place. To allow something such as this to continued to be accepted as being true despite the many, many doubts that have been raised is something that one simply cannot stand aside and allow to happen. It is just that simple.

#629 uechtel

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 22:22

"The" LKA is a very vague institution. First, which of the 16 LKA was it? Was it an official research or did they just ask "somebody" at the LKA? On what method, how sure? For well-foundated journalism on such a disputed issue I would expect such informations. Also I would at least expect a statement about the contrary position in the article. To me it reads as if the magazine has taken over the article from somebody without further own research.

White car at the Avus: And even if one of the cars would have been white, the story would have only made sense if all of the cars gad been white. In the tale´s own logic, if one car had been silver it would have passed the weight check and Neubauer wouldn´t have anything to be afraid of.

But the text itself confirms, that Mercedes brought silver cars to the Avus. Caracciola´s remembering of a white car was from the test drives before that event. So if there had indeed been some paint scratching it must have happened already before Avus, not thereafter.

Finally, I think the article contains a logical error. The tale is, that after scratching the cars were covered in a layer of light silver paint. Now one of the argument is, that on the one picture (with the reflexions) remains of white paint are visible in the openings of the bodywork. So what does this tell about the expertise if it states the possibility of white spots on the car when we know everything had been covered silver in the meantime?

Edited by uechtel, 18 January 2010 - 22:23.


#630 Duc-Man

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:32

Dear HDonaldCapps,

I just went back to the start of this again to see if I missed something (I got to page 6 by now). I think I'm NOT the one missing the point here!
I insist that you read the original topic before you start bitching at me.
Here we go:

In the Eifelrennen in 1934 Mercedes Benz had problems passing the weight limit. Their car was too heavy with the brake fluid (which had to be in the car during the check). As a result they removed the white paint. This helped them to gain weight and thus the 'Silver Arrows' was born. In stead of the traditional German whit national colours they used Silver from then on.

My question is : Auto Union also switched to Silver. When did this happen, what decided them to switch also from the national white to silver ?

PS : Does anyone know the national racing colour of Sweden ?

PS 2 : Whitney Straight, born in the States but lived in England almost all his life : what was the colour he used to race in ? I have seen pictures of him in a white Maserati but also in a green one ?


So William Hunt didn't ask if the paintscratchinglegend is true or not...

To uechtel: since MB is based in Stuttgart I would guess it was the LKA in Stuttgart that did that analysis.

Would anybody doubt that result if the analysis would have been done by FBI or Scotland Yard? How about a conspiricy between MB & the police?

To answer the original when: AU showed up at the AVUS (one week before the Eifelrennen) with silver cars.

BTW: I read through MvB's book 'Kampf um Meter und Sekunden' and he writes about the Eifelrennen about the white red and blue cars getting pushed into their starting positions... :drunk:

Edited by Duc-Man, 19 January 2010 - 11:40.


#631 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:03

Starting positions?

There you go... proof they weren't 'scratched' between practice and the race...

#632 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:10

Duc-Man: there was actually no weight limit in force for the 1934 Eifelrennen. As you read further through this thread you will discover that the race was actually run to Formule Libre - as had been all major races in 1932 and 1933. Therefore there was no need to weigh the cars.

So the whole myth is based on a totally false premise.

#633 uechtel

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 17:26

To uechtel: since MB is based in Stuttgart I would guess it was the LKA in Stuttgart that did that analysis.


Exactly. Is this serious journalism?

Would anybody doubt that result if the analysis would have been done by FBI or Scotland Yard? How about a conspiricy between MB & the police?


So far we don´t have a statement from the police, only from somebody who claims he has one. Therefore my question, whether it was an offical request or whether somebody only asked "somebody" at the LKA? And can we really be sure that a Stuttgart policeman is not even a little bit biased by local patriotism in a case like this. Would the answer have been the same if they had asked for example at the LKA at Munich?

BTW: I read through MvB's book 'Kampf um Meter und Sekunden' and he writes about the Eifelrennen about the white red and blue cars getting pushed into their starting positions... :drunk:


I wonder then how the expert of the LKA comes to the verdict they were silver at this point? Do you think there is indeed a conspiracy between Mercedes and the police?

#634 Duc-Man

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:38

Starting positions?

There you go... proof they weren't 'scratched' between practice and the race...


...and also proof they were not even silver through the race...
Here is a scan from the page:
Posted Image

I don't know about the structure of the LKAs. I kind of doubt that each one has a full lab to examine everything they have to. Just look at the cost-performance ratio.
It wouldn't suprise me if that photo was analysed in Hamburg for example.
Considering the expense of a proper analysation to get any proof I'd say it was an official request by MB. And I'm sure they got a nice big bill for that as well.

#635 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:55

The comment was about the Eifelrennen, was it not?

That's what Duc-Man says in post 681...

#636 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:57

So, a reference to 'weiss' on the AVUS grid, casually recalled at some range by yet another of this saga's provenly unreliable witnesses. In explanation of a white car on the grid, one might wonder what colour was Pete de Paolo's Miller?

DCN

#637 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 10:53

That's actually a description of the Eifelrennen grid, Doug.

So here we have the self-serving MvB writing in 1953 that there were white cars on the grid, which Duc-Man accepts as proof. Strange, that, considering that Neubauer claimed in 1958 that scraping the paint off was actually Manfred's idea. Funny how Manfred couldn't remember that then. I don't think he ever confirmed it in so many words either.

#638 retriever

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:20

Seems this subject has found its way into the Letters page of the Times. A Gareth Tarr of Chertsey, Surrey recalls the story of Mercedes removing the white paint in a comparison with the new Sky cycle team painting only 25% of the frame of their bicycles to save weight.



#639 Duc-Man

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:22

...and also proof they were not even silver through the race...


Gents, that was ment in a sarcastic way. Speaking for my self: I don't really know what to think.
Like I said before: as long the are no colour photos...there will be no solution to that mystery

MvB menrions only once (for 1934) the colour of the cars. That is when he was asked to do the testing near Milano.
"Ich war dazu ausersehen auf der Autostrada von Mailand nach Varese mit diesem silber gleißenden Fahrzeug die ersten 'Gehversuche' zu machen."
That's it! Nothing more about the colour of the W25 after that sentence. Nothing about removing paint, nothing about any changes of the colour between then and the Eifelrennen.

I think back in the day white might have been a synonym for silver and the other way around and should not be taken literally. That would also explain the famous Neubauer quote that disagrees with it self.

Edited by Duc-Man, 20 January 2010 - 11:28.


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#640 Otto Grabe

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 12:48

The DaimlerChrysler Historic section have generously made the following photographs available from their extensive archives. Some are familiar old favourites, seldom available before in decent quality - but some are new. There are dozens of them, but here I have just selected a few.

Posted Image
2 - The Fuhrer examining the new car at a special viewing - both Josef Goebbels and Alfred Neubauer standing to the left - plainly a silver-finished car, uncertain if it's painted but the finish is, I promise you, not particularly great. For example, note the uneven spacing of the nose grille bars.



Addition: Clearly the same presentation in Munich, February 1934. Source: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, Heinrich Hoffmann ("Leibphotograph des Führers")

Posted Image

#641 Rob

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 09:14

Now Norbert Haug is voicing the paint scraping story.

"In 1934 paint was scratched off because the car was too heavy. This reminiscence experience will also be on the new car. If you take off the paint, carbon fibre will appear. There will be some parts on the car which will reveal some bare carbon fibre parts.""


http://www.motorspor...t_10012501.html

#642 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 09:20

I cannot resist to think that somehow tis might be connected with the return of the "real" Silver Arrows in F1 - maybe they will offically tell their new old story at the soon to follow team presentation for 2010 ? Just my thought, of course...

Cheers,
Ralf


See - just as I have expected.
Why should suddenly there be new evidence.. :rolleyes:
Of course - today at 11.00 o clock German winter time you can see for yourself.
The team presentation is live somewhere on the www.

#643 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 11:12

Now Norbert Haug is voicing the paint scraping story.

http://www.motorspor...t_10012501.html


Am Ur-Silberpfeil von 1934 wurde der Lack abgekratzt, weil das Auto etwas zu schwer war. Diese Reminiszenz wird man am neuen Auto auch erleben. Wenn man jetzt den Lack herunternimmt, kommt die Kohlefaser hervor. Es wird Stellen am Auto geben, die die Kohlefaser zeigen. Es sind natürlich ein schöner Mercedes-Schriftzug und ein Chrom-Stern drauf. Mir gefällt's! -- Norbert Haug


This is the sort of ridiculous nonsense that makes it very clear who actually controls automobile racing "history" -- it is certainly not the scholars and historians it would seem, but the publicists and journalists*, who seem determined to see to it that facts and truth never get in the way of a story, good or otherwise.

Ralf was correct it seems....

I cannot resist to think that somehow this might be connected with the return of the "real" Silver Arrows in F1 - maybe they will offically tell their new old story at the soon to follow team presentation for 2010 ? Just my thought, of course...

See - just as I have expected.
Why should suddenly there be new evidence.. rolleyes.gif


* There are some exceptions, fortunately, to the notion of journalists being manipulators of history through either simple ignorance or gross stupidity -- to say nothing of malice aforethought in cases such as this one; however,that is why the exceptions are called exceptions, their being so few and far between.

#644 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 14:58

From the Racing Comments thread on the Mercedes launch of their new formula one machine:

Get your facts right. I think Haug knows more than us.


The legend goes that Mercedes built the ultimate racing car in time for the 1934 season, the W25. But there was just one small problem: the car was overweight by just one kilogram. At the time, the cars were racing in Germany's traditional racing colour of white, and Alfred Neubauer hit upon the idea of saving weight by removing all of the white paint, so the car ran in its unpainted raw silver bodywork. It's basically the origin story of how Mercedes came to be known as the Silver Arrows, though some people claim that this was just a story Neubauer liked to tell.


When the car rolled out in 1934, it was silver. Look at the photos. Mercedes themselves admit this.


Nice try, Rob, but....

#645 Holger Merten

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:31

After MB presented the new F1 car yesterday, we know, why Motor Klassik had to support the presentation weeks before with the discovery of the Zoltan foto material. :evil:


Who wants to know, how the paintscratching story was enacted on German TV has to have a look here (German). :rolleyes:

Sad, that journalists just copy/paste press releases without any research. :cry:

But a very good job by the Mercedes Marketing department, now we can close this thread.

#646 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 10:36

Any idea what size that download is?

It's been almost an hour and I only have a few seconds of it through...

#647 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 10:43

Ray - I have just been watching it - it is about 4 and a bit minutes, so download should not take that long.
But not really anything important you would miss - abit corporate talk etc. plus, of course a short talk about the paint scratching in 34 and the connection to the new paint job.
It is an interview of Norbert Haug by a lady from German TV, done two hours before the presentation in front of thw W25.


#648 Rob

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 12:24

If an article was to be written, would a magazine like Autosport be receptive to running a story that debunks the myth?

#649 Holger Merten

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 14:36

Ray - I have just been watching it - it is about 4 and a bit minutes, so download should not take that long.
But not really anything important you would miss - abit corporate talk etc. plus, of course a short talk about the paint scratching in 34 and the connection to the new paint job.
It is an interview of Norbert Haug by a lady from German TV, done two hours before the presentation in front of thw W25.


I think the importance starts with the cars in the background and the story Haug want's to sell - tell - us. That teh paint scratching is the thruth. But finally you are right, it's nothing to write home about.


#650 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:55

If an article was to be written, would a magazine like Autosport be receptive to running a story that debunks the myth?


It the sort of story far more attuned to Motor Sport or Vintage Motorsport rather than Autosport. Indeed, Autosport would be one of the last places I would expect it to appear, this not being the sort of thing that would be best rendered within the few words that would be allocated, to say nothing of having to be written for their target audience.

Actually, there is an "article" that has been written, but given the yawning lack of interest when it was suggested to several publications, it is still sitting on the shelf.