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Mercedes and paint-stripping


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#101 Michael Müller

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:28

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Michael, who is the mysterious admirer of Caracciola? She stands opposite Neubauer, looking down at the left front tire. ;)

Absolutely no idea...

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Oh, ...the car at Klausen was silver, better to be seen in the side shot below.

If we know that it was silver, we would have no doubt, but what if we would know it was white?? Frankly spoken, IMHO both pictures do not proof the contrary...! Especially if we consider that the German numberplates of the period had been more ivory than white.

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#102 Michael Müller

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:34

And the doubts about the silver colour of the W25 will even rise if we look at these pictures, same event, most probably even same camera...

Posted Image

Posted Image

#103 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:39

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Hum, are you sure Doug? Poor Charly met her death, buried by an avalanche, during the winter
1933-1934 (I haven't my notes with me) and Klausen hill-climb was on August 5 1934.

Late January 1934 - Rudi's book doesn't give the exact date. The lady in the picture does bear a remarkable resemblance to Charly though - even the hairstyle is very similar.

#104 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:56

I am doing well - :blush: - I responded in haste but she IS Charly's double...

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#105 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 14:03

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...I responded in haste but she IS Charly's double...

Doug, initialy I had thought exactly the same, but then it could not have been since Charly had found her destiny half a year before in that avelanche (Feb. 2, 1934.)

#106 JaviM

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 14:55

The face,nose and hair style lead me to think she is Charly at 90% ,but she was dead at that date,so ,can we think she is Baby Hoffman?.The girlfriend, in that moment, of Louis Chiron and finally Rudi´s wife.
Are the sources about the death date of Charly reliable? (sorry,the girl of the photo is very very very similar to her)
:rolleyes:

#107 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 15:03

Originally posted by JaviM

Are the sources about the death date of Charly reliable? (sorry,she´s very very very similar to her)


Absolutely reliable, Javi - her death is described in Caratsch's autobiography: at the time he was still recuperating from his crash at Monte Carlo in 1933.

#108 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 15:54

That picture of course most probably IS 'Baby' Hoffman, not only since Charly was obviously deceased by that time but also 'Baby' was similarly slender and lean-featured. Old 'Caratsch' had pretty good taste...

DCN

#109 oldtimer

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 19:17

Originally posted by Michael Müller
And the doubts about the silver colour of the W25 will even rise if we look at these pictures, same event, most probably even same camera...

Posted Image

Posted Image


Writers about that era tell us about drivers sitting close to the wheel so that they can put their shoulders into steering effort. Stuck shows us how.

And those are German spectators behaving like Italians. Just revisited the two sets and noticed the really enthusiastic arm-spread fellow is in both the MB and AU shots.

Silver or white, I'm just enjoying these old pics!!

#110 Michael Müller

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 19:21

Originally posted by oldtimer And those are German spectators behaving like Italians.

No, they are Swiss..., or at least the major part of them. Which makes their behaviour even more surprising...

#111 Brun

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 23:53

Originally posted by Michael Müller
And the doubts about the silver colour of the W25 will even rise if we look at these pictures, same event, most probably even same camera...


Well, how about a direct comparison by putting them next to eachother:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Some comments on this. The light is the same (see the sharp shadows under the cars), the event is the same, the place is the same, as is the track. The spectators are also identical: look at the guy in his light-coloured suit, no hat, waving enthousiastically with both arms.

Now, for the fun stuff. The AU-picture has had a little more exposure than the Mercedes one, it is clearly brighter. I've used the mountains in the back and the guy in the suit as references to slightly darken the Stuck-picture, compensating for the difference in exposure. The left picture is the original one, the right is my corrected Stuck:

Posted ImagePosted Image

We know for a fact that the Auto Union was silver/grey. There's very little difference with the Mercedes. If the latter had been white, it would really stand out in this comparison. But even its number plate has a darker tone than Stuck's overall, the papers that people in the back are waving and the shirts they're wearing. So I'd say the Mercedes was either matt silver or light grey, not white.

#112 Michael Müller

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 00:21

Interesting...! 2 remarks:
The German numberplates in the 30's had not been white, but more light ivory.
And on the Stuck photo the colour of the car is darker than that of the road, on the Caracciola picture it's nearly the same.
No misunderstanding, I don't want to say that the W25 is white, I only want to give an example how difficult it is to see the difference between white and silver on b/w photos.

#113 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:22

I will go on with the discussion white or silver and who was first. AU or MB.

Here some pictures from the Avus and from the Eifelrennen:

1. This picture shows Momberger before the Avus race:
Posted Image

2. Same car, same place:
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3. A Focus at the airintake to compare it with Dougs pictures:
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4. And last but not least a focus on Stucks car at the Eifelrennen:
Posted Image

I determine, the AU was already silver in Berlin and not white for the Eifellrennen.

#114 Leif Snellman

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 12:50

Posted Image
I'm amazed no one has made any comment on the color of the wheels on this picture. Not only does it show the contrast between the white (rear wheel) and the silver (body-front wheel) but to me it is also the best evidence yet that the decision to change to silver was made in a hurry as obviously there has not been time to prepare complete sets of "silver" wheels. Note that the team changed (at least) the rear tyres once during the race.

#115 Leif Snellman

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 12:55

... that is the cars + wheels were stripped of paint before been weighed but no one cared at that time to strip the paint from the extra wheel/tyre sets.

#116 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 13:45

Good arguements Leif!

#117 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 14:17

Well, I cannot agree at all. White rear wheels? Well, I only can see a "colour" which ranges from very bright to very dark, depending on the angle of light, and the same shades - from very bright to very dark - can be seen on car's bodywork. The only fully bright (white) item is the driver's overall and dust cap. Silver front wheels? I only see a dark front wheel, which has no colour similarity at all with the bodywork (I'm talking not about the brake drum). So all I can see on this picture is that the right front wheel is considerably darker than the right rear wheel. May be it is red already, which was later MB's standard wheel colour? What about brake dust, which due to the higher brake pressure on the front axle always is thicker on the front wheels?

I also want to draw the attention on this picture, obviously taken under studio conditions, considering the oiled tyres and the paravant in the background. So it is unlikely that it has been taken after a chaotic Nürburgring paint scratch action.

Posted Image

Stripped bare metal bodywork, but still white wheels, but most probably taken already at th factory before the Eifelrennen.

#118 Brun

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 14:45

Originally posted by Michael Müller
What about brake dust, which due to the higher brake pressure on the front axle always is thicker on the front wheels?


I can't imagine brake drums throwing so much brake dust around... not the way disc brakes do. After all, the drums are closed.

#119 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 14:51

Michael, your picture looks like a modern Studio shot by Peter Vann? Do you know, when the picture first appeared? And when it was taken? :confused:

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#120 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 14:57

For sure it's a contemporary photo...!
Holger, have a look at the right lower corner: 20147 is the archive number of Daimler-Benz. The photo of van Brauchitsch at the start of the Eifelrennen has # 20502 (or something like that), a good evidence that it has taken somewhat later.

#121 Leif Snellman

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:04

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Well, I only can see a "colour" which ranges from very bright to very dark, depending on the angle of light

I guess the angle of light should be the same for both the front and rear wheels, shouldn't it?
With "silver" wheels I meant, non-white painted ones.

#122 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:23

Should a small number be a sign for a true studio picture. I checked once again the whole story you wrote at retrorace.nl, and found this small picture with white rear wheels.

Looks like a testrun, but where? In Nürburg?
Posted Image

#123 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:34

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Should a small number be a sign for a true studio picture.

No. But it is a confirmation that it is a contemporary photo from the Daimler-Benz archive.

Not much is known to me about that small photo, it is claimed to be taken at the Nürburgring, but when and under which circumstances is unknown. Probably on the way from the team accomodation and garage to the track.

#124 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:40

Originally posted by Michael Müller

Probably on the way from the team accomodation and garage to the track.


I would agree, AFAIK the situation around the Ring the car comes down the road from the village Nürburg and is now going further to the entrance of the Nürburgring.

And you'll agree, white wheels

#125 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:56

Originally posted by Holger Merten
And you'll agree, white wheels

It seems so. However, if the paint scratching story in fact is true, it should have happened in the night from Saturday to Sunday, when the cars had been in the paddock (Fahrerlager) already. So how to explain a bare metal car with white wheels and registration plate to drive around on open roads? In my opinion there are 2 possible scenarios:
(1) Picture has been taken Wednesday/Thursday/Friday before the Eifelrennen. If so, the PSS is nonsens.
(2) Test runs at the Ring even before the AVUS-Rennen, car still unpainted. This would confirm nothing at all, because it was usual to test racing cars in unfinished sic unpainted condition.

#126 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:58

BTW and nearly OT, I couldn't open the links from the thumbnails of the AAZ - Edition Wien on your retrorace.nl page. But I like to reread the article.

#127 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 16:20

(2) Test runs at the Ring even before the AVUS-Rennen, car still unpainted. This would confirm nothing at all, because it was usual to test racing cars in unfinished sic unpainted condition.


While I wrote several articles about the early days of the Silverarrows I scanned all sources for the dates and places of the testdrives of both teams (AU and MB). And as far as I can remember without my notes, there were no testdrives in spring/summer - or let's say before the Avus- oder Eifelrace. But what I can identify by the trees on the picture, it must have been a nice early summer day. So the picture must have been taken before the Eifelrace?

#128 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 16:27

Originally posted by Holger Merten
BTW and nearly OT, I couldn't open the links from the thumbnails of the AAZ - Edition Wien on your retrorace.nl page. But I like to reread the article.

REPAIRED...

#129 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 16:36

Ahhhh.... thank you.

#130 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 14:48

On the 70th anniversary of the 1934 Eifelrennen and its attendant 'paint-stripping/Silver Arrows' fairy tale - just thought I'd celebrate by reviving this old thread. Didn't want anybody to miss the occasion....

DCN

#131 Brun

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 16:00

Good one, Doug.

*silent moment*

#132 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 23:09

I somewhere read recently -possibly in another forum- where someone stated in rather vague terms that Hermann Lang supposedly had made statements to the effect that paint had indeed been stripped from the cars before the 1934 Eifelrennen. At that time he still worked as a mechanic for the Mercedes-Benz team, which would make his statement just the more credible. No sources were given. Therefore I classified this yarn just as another piece of modern fiction. :cool:

#133 Holger Merten

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Posted 04 June 2004 - 06:39

Originally posted by Doug Nye
On the 70th anniversary of the 1934 Eifelrennen and its attendant 'paint-stripping/Silver Arrows' fairy tale - just thought I'd celebrate by reviving this old thread. Didn't want anybody to miss the occasion....

DCN


Thank you Doug. There will be a time, when we will know the truth, I hope.

#134 Felix Muelas

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Posted 06 June 2004 - 18:46

Posted Image

#135 Holger Merten

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 08:22

I don't think that a poster will be a good proof for an answer to our question.

But what I can add on is a picture of the P-Wagen before the SRA at Avus in march.

Consider the silver polished body of the car.

Posted Image

#136 Felix Muelas

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 09:01

Don´t get angry with me, Holger. ;)
I just thought this is the place where the poster belongs...it is not supposed to bring an answer with itself (If anything it might just prompt some more questions)
un abrazo

#137 Rob29

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 16:08

Can anyone identify the flags on that poster? No sign of the usual Nazi flag.

#138 VAR1016

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 16:38

Originally posted by Rob29
Can anyone identify the flags on that poster? No sign of the usual Nazi flag.


I too noticed these on that wonderful poster. I thought that they might be regional flags.

More worrying is what appears to be a cross-roads portrayed in the background. I would say that the Nurburgring was quite dangerous enough without the addition of intersections!

PdeRL

#139 Wolf

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 19:00

Originally posted by Rob29
Can anyone identify the flags on that poster? No sign of the usual Nazi flag.


I think the upper one is NSKK flag. I haven't seen one but the eagle with swastika (in wreath of a sort, might be oak leaves) in claws and 'scroll' (with NSKK written on it) is consistent with NSKK emblem (and in this picture is almost identical to the one I saw). The other one should represent 'old-fashioned'* (and modern version) of eagle, with crossed stripes of german natinal flag colours (still black-white-red, IIRC, in that time), so could represent some of the state-authorities...

* to be fair, I have seen emblems with eagle with folded wings holding a swastika in claws, but from what I can see this one *does not*.

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#140 anjakub

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 20:13

The upper flag is NSKK House Flag (Hausfahne Nationalsozialistisches Kraftfahrkorps, NSKK). Down probably is flag of the Der Deutsche Automobil-Club e.V.

#141 GIGLEUX

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 20:25

Not specially from "my" archives but from Le Leggendarie Auto Union by Cancellieri-de Agostini. Less darker than the one from your archives, Holger.

Posted Image

#142 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 06:02

My one is an original photographie of the time, which I scanned perhaps a little bit too dark. :blush:

Anyway, I try always to scan the pictures without changing their character. So, if a picture is too dark, I wouldn't change too much, it would stay a dark picture.

#143 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 07:24

For me totally new, a quote from the austrian Erwin Kommenda website :

When Hitler came to power in 1933, he financed Porsche’s development of a racing car, which Porsche then offered to Auto Union. In addition to Erwin Komenda, aerodynamics expert Josef Mickl worked out the design for the bodywork of the legendary Porsche-Auto Union racing car. Ferry Porsche considered Erwin Komenda the founder of the ‘silver arrow era’; Komenda designed the bodywork for the first Auto Union racing car made from a special corrosion-resistant aluminium alloy, which did not have to be painted.  This meant that an extra 2.5kg of weight was not added to the car and thus the car met the requirements for the 750kg racing class. It is said that when the Mercedes engineers saw the shiny, silver racing car, they immediately had the paint scraped off all Mercedes racing cars!




Porsche and Hitler beside the Auto Union GP car:
Posted Image
Picture shows the P-Wagen after the SRA at AVUS in march 1934 on the motorshow in Berlin. Left to Hitler perhaps Hühnlein and at the completely right side of the picture Auto Union member of the board Detlov von Oertzen, who was very interested to get the Auto Union GP car on the track for the AU.

#144 Brun

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 19:45

:eek: Holger!

That's one entire new lead to follow up...

#145 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 20:13

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Not specially from "my" archives but from Le Leggendarie Auto Union by Cancellieri-de Agostini. Less darker than the one from your archives, Holger.

Posted Image


Oooppss, didn't consider the "my" in your post. What do you mean? Do you want to see the original photo in "my" archive? That would be no problem. Perhaps it's original and not prepared for printing in books it may looks a little bit dark.

#146 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 20:14

Originally posted by Brun
:eek: Holger!

That's one entire new lead to follow up...


Brun, I found this quote and thought, I wil post it here. Don't know, if it could be important, but interesting to discuss. :confused:

#147 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 21:37

HOLGER!!! :love: What a fantastic quote to find.... Now that scenario really would make sense...

DCN

#148 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 22:15

Originally posted by Doug Nye
HOLGER!!! :love: What a fantastic quote to find.... Now that scenario really would make sense...

DCN

[cold water pouring mode]
It could make sense, but it could also be someone making up a story to fit the (perceived) facts: source?
[cold water pouring mode]

:)

#149 GIGLEUX

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 22:29

Oooppss, didn't consider the "my" in your post. What do you mean? Do you want to see the original photo in "my" archive? That would be no problem. Perhaps it's original and not prepared for printing in books it may looks a little bit dark.

Holger, what are you searching which doesn't exist. I thougtht my sentence was rather clear but apparently it was not, so I explain:

-you put on this thread a picture with your copyright and the indication it comes from your archives.

-I put exactly the same picture but specify it is not from "my" archives and indicated my source.

Quod erat demonstrandum...

So where is the matter? After all you are free to think what you want, but...! Is it allright now?

#150 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 06:13

Allright.