4762 replies to this topic

[BRK]

Too soon?

Reasonably certain the 2012 challenger will be named the W03.

Bell, Willis, and Costa are now on board, bit of a boost in the technical department. Hopefully translates to better in-season development next season, whatever the starting point, and consistent pace at all tracks.

Primary design focus? A chassis that's easier on the tyres? Better cooling solutions?



Discussion thread for the car and Mercedes GP's prospects in the 2012 F1 season.

[GoRacing]

Too soon?

Reasonably certain the 2012 challenger will be named the W03.

Bell, Willis, and Costa are now on board, bit of a boost in the technical department. Hopefully translates to better in-season development next season, whatever the starting point, and consistent pace at all tracks.

Primary design focus? A chassis that's easier on the tyres? Better cooling solutions?



Discussion thread for the car and Mercedes GP's prospects in the 2012 F1 season.

Design must already be well advanced for Costa to have any influence. Willis might be of help on the aero side. Definitely more downforce required, I believe they have solved the overheating and tyre degradation issues, it's just plain lack of performance.

[KiloWatt]

Hopefully translates to better in-season development next season, whatever the starting point,

I don't think the in-season development this year was anything to be ashamed about. Brawn said a while back that they are slowly catching up on the front runners and I think we can see that. It seems that every race there is a merc to ruin one of the big three's races (which is good for us, but supremely annoying for them, I'm sure).

The tire degradation issue has been solved
The overheating issue has been solved
The EBD they tried on worked a charm
The Grand Daddy Mk III wing is being used
A new diffusor has been added a while back

Those are just the upgrades that worked that we can see (and that I can remember off the top of my head). I'm sure there are many more under the skin that we don't even know of. Even though the top 3 are still somewhat ahead, they're NOT pulling away - which means that if we can start on an equal footing, we can keep up as well. And that's a very positive thing and I think my man Bobby-B has got a lot to do with that.

I do feel positive for next year though. Although on the face of it, this year has been comparatively worse for Merc in terms of results, I get the feeling that they're working a lot more cohesively. So if they get the basics right next year, perhaps they can trouble Red Bull and co a little more. Especially with the new guys back in brackly.

In addition, it seems merc has finally got it in their heads that they need to spend some $$ for this project to work out. Very much looking forward to seeing the W03.

[Pizdek]

Everything need to be sorted out.

We must grab at least 1 win.

From Nico, ofc.

Edited by Pizdek, 05 October 2011 - 11:13.

[dren]

I don't think the in-season development this year was anything to be ashamed about. Brawn said a while back that they are slowly catching up on the front runners and I think we can see that. It seems that every race there is a merc to ruin one of the big three's races (which is good for us, but supremely annoying for them, I'm sure).

The tire degradation issue has been solved
The overheating issue has been solved
The EBD they tried on worked a charm
The Grand Daddy Mk III wing is being used
A new diffusor has been added a while back

Those are just the upgrades that worked that we can see (and that I can remember off the top of my head). I'm sure there are many more under the skin that we don't even know of. Even though the top 3 are still somewhat ahead, they're NOT pulling away - which means that if we can start on an equal footing, we can keep up as well. And that's a very positive thing and I think my man Bobby-B has got a lot to do with that.

I do feel positive for next year though. Although on the face of it, this year has been comparatively worse for Merc in terms of results, I get the feeling that they're working a lot more cohesively. So if they get the basics right next year, perhaps they can trouble Red Bull and co a little more. Especially with the new guys back in brackly.

In addition, it seems merc has finally got it in their heads that they need to spend some $$ for this project to work out. Very much looking forward to seeing the W03.

I have to agree with that 100%. Merc as a team performed well this year, they just didn't have a great car at the start.

[One]

Design must already be well advanced for Costa to have any influence. Willis might be of help on the aero side. Definitely more downforce required, I believe they have solved the overheating and tyre degradation issues, it's just plain lack of performance.

I bet they wil make big difference, as Ross might have know what he would want to do for 2012. It is the last year of Michael's contract, Ross will not let this go.

Meaning, in terms of design, Ross could have opened 'details' to flow into the frame; the tub design suspension, CofG etc should be very well at the end, but aero, cooling (besides efficiency), body works wings all should be still an open card, this perhaps includes definitive gearbox design. So lot can be changed. The tam changed the nose concept drastically since the first Brawn. Ross mastered the periscope exhaust so could be interesting. Especially the effects on exhaust could make huge differences in performance.

[BRK]

I don't think the in-season development this year was anything to be ashamed about. Brawn said a while back that they are slowly catching up on the front runners and I think we can see that. It seems that every race there is a merc to ruin one of the big three's races (which is good for us, but supremely annoying for them, I'm sure).

Agree 100%, said the same thing on the W02 thread. By better I meant the sort of development that would close the gap to the front runners more rapidly and allow them to challenge for podiums and wins by mid-season.

[Wade]

During 2010 and this current season, I have learned to expect the worst and just hope for the best.

Hopefully, if not wins - regular podiums may finally be tasted next season. These past couple of seasons aren't exactly that great for us Merc fans - but I never gave up supporting on this team. I got a strong feeling we can finally see something to cheer about and look forward to (for real this time) next year. Here's hoping!

[ivand911]

I think this is last year for Grand Daddy front wing. Or maybe not. I hope they started fresh with nothing from the old car. I hope they forget double radiators. Longer car, finally. I am still not decided yet, can they do it alone or better copy very well RB7. Nose will be lower. After reading all other new car threads, I start to get pessimistic. Words like innovative, WOW, amaze. I think nothing can stop Costa and Willis to work on new car already. Even if they don't work for MGP yet. Not that they will forgot what they know for 1 month more.

[Starish]

The small rule changes shouldn't hurt MGP, the EBD removal should actually help them. I would rather see a fast unreliable car than a slow reliable one, so primary focus DOWNFORCE!!! Let the tyres and Cooling come in as an afterthought, the cooling alone should e a fundamental thing and not a big problem for a top F1 team.

[ivand911]

The small rule changes shouldn't hurt MGP, the EBD removal should actually help them. I would rather see a fast unreliable car than a slow reliable one, so primary focus DOWNFORCE!!! Let the tyres and Cooling come in as an afterthought, the cooling alone should e a fundamental thing and not a big problem for a top F1 team.

Cooling was big problem for MGP. Destroyed the season.

[GoRacing]

They should not have the same approach as this year. Starting with a plain vanilla car and having a massive upgrade for the last test and not optimizing it well enough for the first couple of races. I hope at the outset they start with a really aggresive, innovative car.

[BRK]

Cooling was big problem for MGP. Destroyed the season.

Yeah, who can forget the burnt bodywork, the duct tapes or the quickfix holes on the cars!

They've had the low nose last season and a higher version this year, I think they've got it covered by now. Expecting to see a W01-esque nose on the W03.

[apoka]

I don't think the in-season development this year was anything to be ashamed about. Brawn said a while back that they are slowly catching up on the front runners and I think we can see that. It seems that every race there is a merc to ruin one of the big three's races (which is good for us, but supremely annoying for them, I'm sure).

The tire degradation issue has been solved
The overheating issue has been solved
The EBD they tried on worked a charm
The Grand Daddy Mk III wing is being used
A new diffusor has been added a while back

Those are just the upgrades that worked that we can see (and that I can remember off the top of my head). I'm sure there are many more under the skin that we don't even know of. Even though the top 3 are still somewhat ahead, they're NOT pulling away - which means that if we can start on an equal footing, we can keep up as well. And that's a very positive thing and I think my man Bobby-B has got a lot to do with that.

I do feel positive for next year though. Although on the face of it, this year has been comparatively worse for Merc in terms of results, I get the feeling that they're working a lot more cohesively. So if they get the basics right next year, perhaps they can trouble Red Bull and co a little more. Especially with the new guys back in brackly.

In addition, it seems merc has finally got it in their heads that they need to spend some $$ for this project to work out. Very much looking forward to seeing the W03.

I somewhat agree, but on the other hand the gap is still quite big. They are often 1-2 seconds slower than the McLaren/Red Bull, so I am unsure whether they will already close this gap (or at least bring it down to a point where they can challenge for race wins) in 2012.

[muramasa]

W03 to be a car that has "duh" factor

[King Six]

Reasonably certain the 2012 challenger will be named the W03.

Now that you've mentioned it, it's probably going to end up being named something absurd. I don't know, just look at Ferrari, it could be literally anything and they'll name the car after it. Depending on how desperate the team are to get PR or make execs happy and such, and Mercedes seem like a very desperate team from day one.

[One]

W03 to be a car that has "duh" factor

[Zava]

Now that you've mentioned it, it's probably going to end up being named something absurd. I don't know, just look at Ferrari, it could be literally anything and they'll name the car after it. Depending on how desperate the team are to get PR or make execs happy and such, and Mercedes seem like a very desperate team from day one.

well, who knows... this year was the 125th anniversary of mercedes and still the car wasn't named "W125 degrees deutschland"

[EdwardCullen]

well, who knows... this year was the 125th anniversary of mercedes and still the car wasn't named "W125 degrees deutschland"

[KiloWatt]

well, who knows... this year was the 125th anniversary of mercedes and still the car wasn't named "W125 degrees deutschland"

Made my day!

[AvranaKern]

Lots of messages but no one has mentioned GILLS yet.

Ivan?

[ivand911]

Lots of messages but no one has mentioned GILLS yet.

Ivan?

No gills ,thank you. It is a car, not a shark.

Edited by ivand911, 06 October 2011 - 07:32.

[Owen]

Big splash in Autosport (print) today on the new tech structure.

[Augurk]

According to F1 2011 (the game), in the second season of career mode (which should be 2012), McLaren seemed fastest and MGP challenging right behind it! Genuine podium contender!!!

[Myrvold]

Keep dreaming For me Ferrari is fastest, in front of Red Bull, McLaren, Renault, Sauber, Force India, Mercedes, Torro Rosso, Lotus, Virgin, Williams and HRT ;)

[King Six]

well, who knows... this year was the 125th anniversary of mercedes and still the car wasn't named "W125 degrees deutschland"

That ...would have actually been a brilliant name

[BRK]

Now that you've mentioned it, it's probably going to end up being named something absurd. I don't know, just look at Ferrari, it could be literally anything and they'll name the car after it. Depending on how desperate the team are to get PR or make execs happy and such, and Mercedes seem like a very desperate team from day one.

That's because they're Ferrari, most other teams follow a logical progression. I'd like to think Mercedes are a bit more sens...I mean less passionate than the reds. Hope so, at least.

125 degrees Deutschland is a terrible name for a car, sounds like a weekly German news round up programme or something.

[ivand911]

I just wonder how much from BGP 001 we will see in W03? Low nose and high exhaust cars?
http://www.ultimatec...1-Mercedes.html
But, we don't have to forget what make BGP 001 strong car. Without DD will be they stronger than McLaren, Ferrari and RBR?

[GoRacing]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/95536

Maybe Mercedes has found something interesting with the exhaust and/or he is worried that someone else might find something innovative which they themselves haven't thought of!

[SCUDmissile]

surely if he had found a loophole, then he would not be saying that he is worried of said loophole.

[King Six]

I'm tired of this bullshit in F1, car design is becoming more politics than actual innovation. They want certain things banned when they can't understand it yet want other things continued. He didn't ****ing complain about diffuser loopholes that ruined the 2009 season did he. They even let it continue into 2010.

The more you mess around with the rules the worse it becomes, there will always be loopholes, deal with it.

Edited by King Six, 20 October 2011 - 11:13.

[ed24f1]

surely if he had found a loophole, then he would not be saying that he is worried of said loophole.

Yes, it sounds like they've looked for a loophole, couldn't find one, and now are trying to stop others doing the same...

[F.M.]

I'm tired of this bullshit in F1, car design is becoming more politics than actual innovation. They want certain things banned when they can't understand it yet want other things continued. He didn't ****ing complain about diffuser loopholes that ruined the 2009 season did he. They even let it continue into 2010.

The more you mess around with the rules the worse it becomes, there will always be loopholes, deal with it.

Ehm, FYI, Brawn did brought the loophole in the 2009 diffuser regulations to light before the season, but the other teams weren't interested in listening to him at that point

[SCUDmissile]

That's because they're Ferrari, most other teams follow a logical progression. I'd like to think Mercedes are a bit more sens...I mean less passionate than the reds. Hope so, at least.

125 degrees Deutschland is a terrible name for a car, sounds like a weekly German news round up programme or something.

sounds like some attack co-ordinates in a Tom Clancy film/book. i agree with the first part. just call it the F2012 and be done with it.

the Merc will probably be the W03. what does the W stand for by the way?

[Lelouch]

sounds like some attack co-ordinates in a Tom Clancy film/book. i agree with the first part. just call it the F2012 and be done with it.

the Merc will probably be the W03. what does the W stand for by the way?

Woeful, considering the results

"MGP-W02 where MGP is an acronym of the team name, Mercedes GP Petronas; the ‘W’ in W02 stands for ‘Wagen’ (car) and the digits ‘02’ for the sequence in the series."

source: http://www.yallaf1.c...2-silver-arrow/

Edited by Lelouch, 20 October 2011 - 12:03.

[GoRacing]

Yes, it sounds like they've looked for a loophole, couldn't find one, and now are trying to stop others doing the same...

I don't agree, no one is going to come out and say we've found a loophole. It could be a perfect way of warning others that there is a potential loophole, don't complain when we have it on the new car.

[SCUDmissile]

Woeful, considering the results

"MGP-W02 where MGP is an acronym of the team name, Mercedes GP Petronas; the ‘W’ in W02 stands for ‘Wagen’ (car) and the digits ‘02’ for the sequence in the series."

source: http://www.yallaf1.c...2-silver-arrow/

thanks. sounds a little like VW, but nice.

[cheapracer]

They are presently up to 2 seconds behind, will be a dramatic change to just match the front runners let alone strive ahead so I can't see it happening.

The 2009 Brawn (Honda/Benz) was not the fastest car out there other than the singular advantage of their DD whereas the rest of the car was not - plainly seen when they raced in 2008 and 2010.

Maybe Brawn is looking at getting that advantage again and spending too much time trying to be clever rather than spending tiime building a solid foundation.

[MikeTekRacing]

The 2009 Brawn (Honda/Benz) was not the fastest car out there other than the singular advantage of their DD whereas the rest of the car was not - plainly seen when they raced in 2008 and 2010.

williams and toyota also had DDD

[GoRacing]

williams and toyota also had DDD

Yes, but 2009 Brawn/Honda car had close to 1 1/2 yrs of development time IIRC. Toyota too had one of their better years and it was obviously due to DD.

[MikeTekRacing]

what I am saying is that BGP's advantage was not all DDD.
that was an important component but the car itself was damn great


no testing, no development and almost no technical issues!

[TeamSideways]

too early for 2012 , i mean there are 3 race remaining , the top 4 teams will test 2012 parts as their positions are secured no matter what .

[DutchCruijff]

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/15714119.stm

Skip to 08:45, seems they are testing the 2012 exhaust next week.

[Andy865]

Yes, mercedes will use periscopic exhausts at the young driver test.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Ross and Costa will be familiar with the design merits and packaging of a periscope exhaust system. Hopefully it doesn't overheat and melt the rest of the car as was happening early on this year.

[Timstr11]

Bob Bell in the background overlooking things at the Abu Dhabi test
http://www.motorspor...z1321353178.jpg

[arknor]

Bob Bell in the background overlooking things at the Abu Dhabi test
http://www.motorspor...z1321353178.jpg

hes been there since last week

[FlashMaster]

Did they test the periscope exhaust today (as ANus predicted)? Guess not - it's Merc GP.

Edited by FlashMaster, 15 November 2011 - 16:42.

[F1Champion]

Its a shame that Willis and Costa came on board so late but that's gardening leave for you. I do wonder though, if there are any quick wins that they can alter in the current design phase in terms of packaging and aero from prior experience. They'll definately have a hand in development but most of their effort will surely be on the 2013 car.

[arknor]

Did they test the periscope exhaust today (as ANus predicted)? Guess not - it's Merc GP.

ross brawn

“You will see the car has some different exhaust positions,” said Mercedes boss Ross Brawn. “Which is something we want to get back into, the alternative exhaust positions. The car will be tested with our interpretation of what the regulations will be.

“It’s a compromise because we’re obviously fitting it around our existing car, but we’re removing the effect of the blown exhaust and starting to understand how the car will work without that. We’ve got a comprehensive program, probably like everybody else we’ve got a list that’s bigger than the time available. But there are priorities that we’ll manage well.”

“Sam Bird is driving all three days. He’s a guy who does a lot of work in our simulator, he’s well integrated with the team, so we’re looking to have a productive week. I have to say that in our case and in some other team’s cases, the priority is the technical program. We’re not right now in the market looking for a young driver.”

Edited by arknor, 15 November 2011 - 18:03.