46 replies to this topic

[Williams]

I am trying to find the origin, if there is one, of this famous old racing quote. In American sources it is invariably ascribed to Rick Mears, 4-time Indy winner, but I am sure it goes back farther than that. I have also seen it attributed to Teddy Mayer.

What is the earliest example you know of this quote being published or quoted, and by whom ? The source of such a reference would be appreciated if you have it.

[Don Capps]

There is a Martini-Rossi Driver of the Year ad from the early 1960s with that phrase -- and it was ancient then!

[John Cross]

I've always associated the saying with Jack Brabham, but thought I'd do a quick search for it and found 88 hits on Google. Most of them attribute it to Rick Mears, but one page said Brabham:

www.washingtonceo.com/archive/jun99/0699-InterTrade.html

and another said Teddy Meyer:

www.research-racing.de/The%20Great%20Mac.htm

There is a page about Bruce's early career on the McLaren site entitled 'To Finish First You Must First Finish':

http://www.mclaren.c...irstfinish.html

Another page even associates it with parts of the New Testament:

http://lhcf.org/serm...t_the_faith.htm

Any more?

[Ray Bell]

The quotes from the apostle Paul are a bit out of left field, but the thought is there. Like Don, I think it predates any of the names mentioned, with any suggestion of it being Rick Mears being no less than laughable.

I think you'll find it's in Hans' territory.

[Barry Boor]

I always thought this originally came from Roger Penske.

Or was that "We're not here to win; we're here to learn!"

[Ray Bell]

Many cliches have come from Roger, but like this one I think many have been quotes. Maybe he coined the unfair advantage or maybe it was an advertising guru who did that?

[Allen Brown]

Wasn't it Fangio - or perhaps the title of something he wrote - or something written about him.

Sorry - the memory's not what it was. As far as I can remember anyway...

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Or is it "To finish first, first you must finish"?

Allen

[Barry Boor]

That's the way round that I always remember the saying.

[Barry Lake]

Yes I have always known the quote as Allen Brown has written it.

One thing I know is the saying is a lot older than Rick Mears. I tend to link it with Fangio, or his era. So often, however, sayings are a lot older than people think they are.

Each generation always thinks it invented words and sayings, when so often they go back many generations.

A "cool" sum of money, for example. I was surprised to find this in a Charles Dicken's book - Great Expectations, I think. Perhaps he lifted it from the bible...

[Ray Bell]

I agree with that... sayings often go a lot further back than you'd think.
During the seventies a lot of people used to say "That'll be the go! ...or at least some people I knew, and Barry will know particularly who... I always thought of it as contemporary...
Then I got a book by Raefello Carboni about the Eureka Stockade, a subject that had always interested me, written in ... was it 1851?... anyway, over a century ago, and the expression was used in that.

There's a vast number of expressions come from the bible, like the writing's on the wall, which is, of course, referring to the account in Daniel of the overthrowing of Babylon in the sixth century BC.

I don't, however, recall the use of the word 'cool' in the bible, but that's not to say it isn't there. For instance, God is reported in Genesis to have walked with Adam in the cool of the afternoon... now I can't find where it says that...

But I frequently hear people using sayings and can relate them to bible events (well known ones) and see that as their source. Probably from medieval times...

[Barry Boor]

It is perfectly true to say that some sayings are very old.

"Who let those damn woodpeckers on the boat?" is of course, attributed originally to Noah!

[David M. Kane]

The first person I heard us the phrase was Jackie Stewart, but that could have been during his commentator days with
American TV during some race coverage.

[arttidesco]

I've always associated the saying with Jack Brabham, but thought I'd do a quick search for it and found 88 hits on Google. Most of them attribute it to Rick Mears, but one page said Brabham:

www.washingtonceo.com/archive/jun99/0699-InterTrade.html

and another said Teddy Meyer:

www.research-racing.de/The%20Great%20Mac.htm

There is a page about Bruce's early career on the McLaren site entitled 'To Finish First You Must First Finish':

http://www.mclaren.c...irstfinish.html

Another page even associates it with parts of the New Testament:

http://lhcf.org/serm...t_the_faith.htm

Any more?

Unfortunately the links on this post are no longer operative and I never paid attention in class least of all during R.E.

Does anyone know which biblical text John might have been referring to here ?

Any advances on Fangio's claim to the quotation with in the motor racing fraternity ?

[D-Type]

This thread dates from before i joined TNF so it's the first time I've seen it. Had I been asked the question, I would have answered "Reg Parnaell" but I don't know why.

[RogerFrench]

I'd like to think Fangio, but wasn't his great quotation the one about winning the race at the lowest possible speed? It's the same philosophy I suppose.

[Bloggsworth]

I first heard it said by Denny Hulme - Better ask Susie Dent.

[f1steveuk]

It appears as a quote in a book by Henry O'Neal de Hane Segrave, and attributed to him.

[Allan Lupton]

For some reason I hadn't seen this thread before (ETA same reason as D-Type - I hadn't joined then!).

"To finish first, you first must finish" was attributed to Charles Jarrott when I were a lad, and it may even be a direct quotation from "Ten Years of Motors and Motor Racing" but I can't remember and certainly can't cite a reference. The words, as I quote them, have a slightly Edwardian feel which may be relevant.

ETA de Hane Segrave would have known Jarrott's book, of course.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 17 February 2013 - 18:55.

[E1pix]

A two-color ad I did in 1987, using the quote version as I thought it to be and as Allen and others confirmed above.

I shot the photo and designed the logo, font, lines and borders with technical pens by hand, old school with photostats and wax compositing:

[GMACKIE]

When I first started motor racing in 1961, Jack Bono gave me some 'never forgotten' advice...."To finish first, first you must finish" and "Hasten slowly" and "Win at the slowest possible speed".

Jack attributed these to [now Sir] Jack Brabham, however Sir Jack may have 'borrowed' them?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by arttidesco
Unfortunately the links on this post are no longer operative and I never paid attention in class least of all during R.E.

Does anyone know which biblical text John might have been referring to here?

I answered it at the time, "The quotes from the apostle Paul are a bit out of left field, but the thought is there."

I've had a look at the writings of Paul that I thought might apply, but I think it's too obscure. Paul several times referred to continuing faithful as running a race, he also referred to keeping going to 'the finish' to achieve his goals. But I don't know which particular verses this reference took in.

[wagons46]

Well at least we know what the Mayor of Hiroshima was famous for saying.

[seldo]

As a young tacker in the mid '50s, I used to devour every word in my favourite book called The Boy's Book of Motor Racing, with forward by one S. Moss. Amongst many very astute words of advice, I am quite sure that he also offered that "to finish first, first you must finish". And I also recall my Dad saying it to me ad-nauseum before every race-meeting, and I'm quite sure that he'd never read my book, so I'm sure it came well before that.
Slightly OT, but from the same book Moss also planted in my mind that to be fast you had to be smooth, as he said quite logically, "every time you turn that wheel, you slow the car down".
Good advice.

[GMACKIE]

Especially so in Formula Vee.

[E1pix]

Absolutely, and a reason why low-power karting is so good for "smooth." (preferably only until one's 10 ).

We call it "front scrub" and it's the kiss of death to a lap time. Except for brake-turn-in, all the steering's used for is being straight for exit-power as soon as possible. (At apex, steering done, unload the fronts) Brakes are best to get to there.


Always loved FV, Greg. One of the few "real" remaining classes in SCCA Club racing, and where experience can trump youth. The class, if I can, later.

As a kid there was a guy in the States named Harvey Templeton, in National-caliber club racing in the '70s and maybe into the '80s. He built his own car called a Shadowfax, and was always a threat. He never quite won a national title but was sure an inspiration to anyone thinking that high-level Club racing was possible into one's 70s. Polesitter at this hardest event, as I recall, awesome. Always in the thick of it. Apparently wanting to "move up," in his even-later years he built a Formula Ford in an era that included very-fast young drivers (like Andrettis Mike and Jeff, Vassar, Ganassi, Chip Robinson, etc.).

Fearless to the end.


After writing this I Googled, this:
http://www.conceptca...-Shadowfax.aspx


Edit: I totally agree that (smooth and seemingly-) slow is fast... but when edgy techniques seem slow, all the better.

Edited by E1pix, 18 February 2013 - 07:26.

[Wirra]

Is it an application of 'slow and steady wins the race' associated with Aesop's fable of "The Tortoise and the Hare."

...http://www.conceptca...-Shadowfax.aspx
...

Eric, I have a few thoughts but what is the significance of the red flag on the car?

Edited by Wirra, 18 February 2013 - 08:13.

[RCH]

Perhaps it doesn't have a discernable origin? It's one of those obvious and logical statements that many could have used without even realising that they were quoting someone else. Certainly it has been around for as long as I can remember.

We are told that many, many expressions in the English language are attributable to Shakespeare, that he added so much to the language, but were they just expressions that were common in the 16/17 centuries anyway?

[E1pix]

Is it an application of 'slow and steady wins the race' associated with Aesop's fable of "The Tortoise and the Hare."

Eric, I have a few thoughts but what is the significance of the red flag on the car?

Per Aesop, interesting... Yeah...

I don't think Harvey ran a flag, these photos must be someone of latter-day vintage in his car. (the thing was so short as to be miss-able by a cyclist)

But Ol' Harv always did have dayglo red somewhere on his car.

[kayemod]

Perhaps it doesn't have a discernable origin?

My money would be on Ben Hur.

[ryan86]

I guess there's a few examples where this isn't necessarily true. Races where the red flag is brought out because the leader crashes?

[delcomb]

Per Aesop, interesting... Yeah...

I don't think Harvey ran a flag, these photos must be someone of latter-day vintage in his car. (the thing was so short as to be miss-able by a cyclist)

But Ol' Harv always did have dayglo red somewhere on his car.

Those photos are of Mike Jackson, the current owner of both Shadowfax and Ringwraith. He lives in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. He often runs in mixed grids and the flag is there so the Sprites can see him.

Doug

[E1pix]

Those photos are of Mike Jackson, the current owner of both Shadowfax and Ringwraith. He lives in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. He often runs in mixed grids and the flag is there so the Sprites can see him.

Doug

Yep, as I'd thought Delcomb.

Thanks, and glad the cars are still giving pleasure.

Edited by E1pix, 19 February 2013 - 00:06.

[CSquared]

Recent article about Shadowfax: http://www.sfrscca.o...13_webfinal.pdf

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ryan86
I guess there's a few examples where this isn't necessarily true. Races where the red flag is brought out because the leader crashes?

Don't ever mention that prospect among Australians who weren't happy with Jim Richards at Bathurst in the Nissan...

However, I will say this also happened at Bathurst the other week with my nephew. He was leading the race, got a slow run into the climbing Mountain Straight and had another car moving up on him on his right... the next turn went to the right... he kept left to give him room, which put him into the sand dropped by the car that had just been dragged out of the sand trap.

Notwithstanding that the car in second backed off anyway, Ben finished up barrelling into the barrier and got the car into a spin. The kind of spin where daylight appears under the car for a while.

He was awarded the win as he'd been leading on the last completed lap. He doesn't count it as a win, however, and I don't mean because he now has to replace the body shell for the owner of the car.

[Wirra]

So if you're leading the race and crash and bring out a red flag you are the winner? Don't let Nelson Piquet Jr find out about that.

[Allan Lupton]

So if you're leading the race and crash and bring out a red flag you are the winner? Don't let Nelson Piquet Jr find out about that.

It has always been a problem when the competitor that caused the Red Flag was leading at the point at which the result then has to be declared.
A Stewards' Enquiry could easily disqualify someone who was found to have crashed deliberately, but the truly devious competitor will have made the incident look like a real accident - and even like someone else's fault if possible.

[sonar]

Rally drivers made their own version of this quote:
To finish first, first you must be Finnish.
Does anybody know who came up with this one?

[E1pix]

To finish first, first you must be Finnish.

Precious!

[BRG]

Rally drivers made their own version of this quote:
To finish first, first you must be Finnish.

Fortunately, Sebastian Loeb never took any notice of that version....

[RCH]

Rally drivers made their own version of this quote:
To finish first, first you must be Finnish.
Does anybody know who came up with this one?

Stuart Turner?

[sonar]

Sounds more like something Keke would have said...
Or was it this one: If you want to win, hire a Finn.

[Allan Lupton]

Rally drivers made their own version of this quote:
To finish first, first you must be Finnish.
Does anybody know who came up with this one?

Stuart Turner?

That'd be about right as he had Finns (Makinen and Aaltonen) on the payroll as early as anyone

[D-Type]

Sounds more like something Keke would have said...
Or was it this one: If you want to win, hire a Finn.

Surely Keke would have said "If you want to win, hire this Finn" or later ".... hire this Finn's Finn"?

Edited by D-Type, 20 February 2013 - 20:59.

[kayemod]

Surely Keke would have said "If you want to win, hire this Finn" or later ".... hire this Finn's Finn"?

Clever, but the first of your Finns was born in Sweden, and the second in Germany. Nico has German nationality and travels on a German passport, so neither is quite the genuine article.

[sonar]

Surely Keke would have said "If you want to win, hire this Finn" or later ".... hire this Finn's Finn"?

You're probably right.

I think the quote 'If you want to win, hire a Finn' (or 'employ a Finn' of 'get a Finn) might be Turner's.
If it is, it should be in one of his books. Anyone..?

[kayemod]

And of course, "If you want to win hire a finn", could just be advice given to anyone wanting to compete in a men's single-handed, cat-rigged Olympic sailing class.

I'll get my sou'wester...