112 replies to this topic

[rd500]

just thought i would start a thread as one of the great [often overlooked classes] of motorcycle racing has been brought to an end, i believe the last round of the bsb there was the last time the 125s will be at british championship level[i think to be replaced with kawasaki ninja 250s?]

sadly a lot of my pictures from the british/gp of old were lost, but i have many from the last few years of british/gp competition so i will post up when i get a chance.

i for one will be sad when the chequered flag falls on them and i think there is only 2 races at gp level to go.

[terryshep]

just thought i would start a thread as one of the great [often overlooked classes] of motorcycle racing has been brought to an end, i believe the last round of the bsb there was the last time the 125s will be at british championship level[i think to be replaced with kawasaki ninja 250s?]

sadly a lot of my pictures from the british/gp of old were lost, but i have many from the last few years of british/gp competition so i will post up when i get a chance.

i for one will be sad when the chequered flag falls on them and i think there is only 2 races at gp level to go.

I'll be sorry to see them go at GP level particularly, they have always given us good close racing right down the field and you know just how hard they have to try, because to lose a yard or two can mean you dropping out of the battle. I only ever raced a 125 once, being far too big for them, but it's a real challenge to keep the revs up through the bends. From what I've read so far, the new 250 4-strokes will have at least as much trouble hanging on to their powerband, so we should still see some good racing. The restrictions on electronics should maintain a fairly level field too, I hope.

[joeninety]

Its more a case of who can afford moto3? Minimum 25K to get going properly with one, to then be slower than the current 125s. BSB can not fill a grid with moto3's as 95% can't afford it and we need a class for the youngsters, so 125s are guaranteed at BSB for the next 3 years, with moto3's allowed in also, by invitation only, to stop people bringing in home made bikes with motoX grenade engines and to be sure its a genuine moto3 bike. After 2015 it will be reviewed again.
facebook reply from Steve Patrickson, this may clear things up a little.

Edited by joeninety, 17 October 2011 - 17:50.

[tonyed]

just thought i would start a thread as one of the great [often overlooked classes] of motorcycle racing has been brought to an end, i believe the last round of the bsb there was the last time the 125s will be at british championship level[i think to be replaced with kawasaki ninja 250s?]

sadly a lot of my pictures from the british/gp of old were lost, but i have many from the last few years of british/gp competition so i will post up when i get a chance.

i for one will be sad when the chequered flag falls on them and i think there is only 2 races at gp level to go.

Horrible polluting anti social things.

All that smoke and noise. Not like the clean quiet American war plans we have blessing our skies over East Anglia.

Lets get those nice environmentally friendly 250 4 stroke singles pumping out a heady 12 bhp just before they dump their oil filled guts all over the track as the rod lets go at 14K.

Moto3, Moto2, Moto GP, Superbike, Superstock, Supersport, superBULLSHIT, superCRAP. But what!

It’s like the modern ‘THANG’

‘Wat! you don’t know you won’t miss’

Good luck to the little bastards, in 50 years time when the oil runs out and they have to hitch a lift from a passing horse and your thumbs succumbed to a lifetime of texting ‘tough **** tosser –WALK’

‘But I spent my life in front of the ‘box’ watching ‘Strictly’ ‘cause they’d closed all the libraries, and I lost use of legs ‘cause the Dominos Pizzas obesed me’

A dark age decends.

[joeninety]

I have tried to post with humour I have tried to post with sense but the last reply leaves me somewhat perplexed

[Russell Burrows]

Stroker Delusional Syndrome. For those so those afflicted there has never been, nor will there ever be, a good entertaining race consisting of four stroke motorcycles.

[RVF400]

Sorry to see the 2 strokers go.

[joeninety]

Stroker Delusional Syndrome. For those so those afflicted there has never been, nor will there ever be, a good entertaining race consisting of four stroke motorcycles.

In short, Load of Bollocks, is someone going to reply with some sense to my post

Edited by joeninety, 17 October 2011 - 20:58.

[picblanc]

In short, Load of Bollocks, is someone going to reply with some sense to my post

What is? The new Moto3 class, or Tony's amusing ramblings?
Personally very sad to see the last real racing class go, but if its true it has a 2/3 year reprieve then good, though the bikes are going to be really long in the tooth by the end, many are running 3,4,5 year old bikes now.

[tonyed]

Its more a case of who can afford moto3? Minimum 25K to get going properly with one, to then be slower than the current 125s. BSB can not fill a grid with moto3's as 95% can't afford it and we need a class for the youngsters, so 125s are guaranteed at BSB for the next 3 years, with moto3's allowed in also, by invitation only, to stop people bringing in home made bikes with motoX grenade engines and to be sure its a genuine moto3 bike. After 2015 it will be reviewed again.
facebook reply from Steve Patrickson, this may clear things up a little.

Let me try a sensible reply then.

At GP level where the manufacturers are in at engine level with technology they have developed over the years racing highish performance motocross four strokes the level of reliability should be reasonable. However, as we have seen, some manufacturers are already abandoning their smaller capacity four strokes and returning to two stroke technology for several reasons.
To get a high performance four stroke you have to sacrifice a smooth power curve, you have to raise the engine speed, you have to control valves without loosing to much engine power, you have to legislate on the bike for engine disasters to control the efflux of oil onto the track surface.
And what have you got? A more expensive, in every way (to run, to manufacture, to maintain) technology that gives less power. If that is progress then the argument defeats me.
At national and club level, unless you buy a 25 grand off the shelf moto3 the grids will be full of race chassised motocross engines tuned(?) for road racing.
We already see whole meetings abandoned and racing delayed due to oil contamination of the track due to oil spillages, this class will just exacerbate the problem.

I leave off where I left off my inane ramblings earlier:

‘We are entering dark age’

PS Racing and investment motorcycles have a Moriwaki Moto3 for sale based on a 250 Suzuki. Enquire about the price for this already obsolete bike!

[rd500]

the new moto3 class is already a big debate on many sides but it is true that these machines like the moto 2 bikes are causing a lot of people to question the whole motorcycling world.

i agree these bikes are obsolete as soon as they are made you cant use one anywhere except in gp, to give you an example

a moto 2 machine was for sale recently [mcn] and was advertised as not for use on track days or on the road and also the engine had been replaced with a standard road going 600 and the electronics package for the class removed, of course we know it cant be used in any national racing and i would think club level would refuse it also in any class except for run what you brung as it doesnt fit any class on its own merit - so it would make an expensive ornament.

thank you joe for letting us know about the future plans for the 125 class in the uk but as pic said it will mean very old machinery being used and the lap times for the 125s in the uk havent really moved much since 07/08.

i think a lot of the time its pushed down the road as a 2 stroke v 4 stroke thing but i dont really think thats the issue.

the marketing tv company that runs the sereis decided to make a change so nothings going to change that - they fund so they can play with it how they like as kr said once "if the people who run this show decide were going somewhere then were gone whether we like it or not" but what worries me is 2 things

1, i believe they are sacrificing technological advancement, for as they claim cheaper, fairer racing there is nothing in use or planned on these moto 2/3 bikes that is going to progress us in to the future. they are using the same materials/frame/suspension and brake setups that were about years ago and they cant really change anything because of the restrictions.

2, what effect is this having on the sport in general, is it confusing for a rider who wins the uk supersport to decide whats the next step? in 30 years time will moto 2/3 be looked at as the lower class to the premier championship?

on a last note i see dorna are bringing out a dvd in time for xmas [surprise surprise] which celebrates the last decade of gp racing. what was that film again - back to the future.

[rd500]

Stroker Delusional Syndrome. For those so those afflicted there has never been, nor will there ever be, a good entertaining race consisting of four stroke motorcycles.

i must not be afftected, there have been many good races. but in my view these were before the year 2000.

[Herr Wankel]

i must not be afftected, there have been many good races. but in my view these were before the year 2000.

Was watching the factory Sherco Moto3 bike at Albacete last weekend.To be honest it appeared to be struggling against the Derbi/Aprilia strokers.Sounded OK though.Honda had their bike on (static) display.Looks the biz,but in truth I think there is really no need.So what if they (Honda and the rest of the sheep) are phasing 2 strokes out.Racing should be about racing,not road bikes !

HW

[fil2.8]

.Racing should be about racing,not road bikes !

HW

Well said , never used to mind the odd proddy bike race , but , how anyone can watch almost a whole programme of what is basically proddy bike racing is beyond me

[rd500]

Was watching the factory Sherco Moto3 bike at Albacete last weekend.To be honest it appeared to be struggling against the Derbi/Aprilia strokers.Sounded OK though.Honda had their bike on (static) display.Looks the biz,but in truth I think there is really no need.So what if they (Honda and the rest of the sheep) are phasing 2 strokes out.Racing should be about racing,not road bikes !

HW

were these grand prix Derbi/Aprilias or were they the tuned road bike 125s hw?

i remeber a few months back there was a video that was released in america, moto3 vs aprillia 125 - the moto3 was a fully complete moriwaki while the aprillia was a restricted 125 road bike with the mirrors removed. the young lad riding them back to back was really impressed with the moto 3s power and said he preffered it.

absolutly utterly with that one.

[rd500]

as has been said before though, this is the current state of "racing"

the crowds now dissapear when the 125s come on at the bsb and some of the comments ive heard at some race meetings regarding the 125s have made my blood boil about how they are pointless and too slow. slow - you aint seen nothing yet!

its the way the media parade it according to the suppliers demand - modern day "biker" or knee down man as we know them, is only interested in the 600/1000 moto gp rubbish and has been taught not to look at anything else as its substandard, these same idiots who seem to think its acceptable to pay £30 for a tax disc holder "cause it matches their leathers" are the same fools who think moto3 and the like is - and i quote this from many articles "amazing"

its enough to make you spew!

[fil2.8]

as has been said before though, this is the current state of "racing"

the crowds now dissapear when the 125s come on at the bsb and some of the comments ive heard at some race meetings regarding the 125s have made my blood boil about how they are pointless and too slow. slow - you aint seen nothing yet!

its the way the media parade it according to the suppliers demand - modern day "biker" or knee down man as we know them, is only interested in the 600/1000 moto gp rubbish and has been taught not to look at anything else as its substandard, these same idiots who seem to think its acceptable to pay £30 for a tax disc holder "cause it matches their leathers" are the same fools who think moto3 and the like is - and i quote this from many articles "amazing"

its enough to make you spew!

Again , well said , and sadly , very true , I as have found out in the last couple of seasons , it's only a few who actually know what a ' tz ' actually is , some say 'tzr' , I say , no , it's a tz ex gp race bike , google it , and find out about proper race race bikes , most punters 'aint a clue

[fil2.8]

as has been said before though, this is the current state of "racing"

the crowds now dissapear when the 125s come on at the bsb and some of the comments ive heard at some race meetings regarding the 125s have made my blood boil about how they are pointless and too slow. slow - you aint seen nothing yet!

its the way the media parade it according to the suppliers demand - modern day "biker" or knee down man as we know them, is only interested in the 600/1000 moto gp rubbish and has been taught not to look at anything else as its substandard, these same idiots who seem to think its acceptable to pay £30 for a tax disc holder "cause it matches their leathers" are the same fools who think moto3 and the like is - and i quote this from many articles "amazing"

its enough to make you spew!

Again , well said , and sadly , very true , I as have found out in the last couple of seasons , it's only a few who actually know what a ' tz ' actually is , some say 'tzr' , I say , no , it's a tz ex gp race bike , google it , and find out about proper race race bikes , most punters 'aint a clue

[picblanc]

Under 40 years old & they know nothing, they have been fed a diet of road bike based race bikes on TV & at WSB/BSB & now MotoGP/2/3, they have no idea that corner speeds are quicker on a 125 than on a Superbike, I love the things (125's) but there again I loved the 250/350/500/750 two strokes, that was because that was what was being raced when I found racing as a 13 year old, if I had been around in the 50's/60's I would have loved the four strokes, its called nostalgia, sadly Motorcycle racing Worldwide is a pale shadow of what once was a great sport, I still enjoy WSB/BSB/Supersport etc but I wont pay to go and see it anymore.

[picblanc]

See Phil is getting his post count up by posting two of everything!! ??????

[Rennmax]

I think a comprehensible reason for the abolishment of the 125 and 250 classes at GP level were or are the horrendous leasing rates Aprilia charged for technically simple bikes which competed in a virtually one-make class after all.
Here are some basic Moto3 regulations
http://www.gpone.com...egolamento.html

The rules about transmission/gearbox make sense IMHO, I think the gearbox variations they have now for the 125 Aprilia RSA numbers dozen of different set ups

[Herr Wankel]

They were GP 'Prillers and Derbis (Marc Marquez' brother on one of those CX thingies).The poor old banger was left wanting ! This was a european championship round,but then an ordinary club race in spain will have some s..t hot 125s ! To give you an idea,John McPhee who is one of the top UK boys was down in 11th,but still well in front of the Sherco.


HW

[picblanc]

I think a comprehensible reason for the abolishment of the 125 and 250 classes at GP level were or are the horrendous leasing rates Aprilia charged for technically simple bikes which competed in a virtually one-make class after all.
Here are some basic Moto3 regulations
http://www.gpone.com...egolamento.html

The rules about transmission/gearbox make sense IMHO, I think the gearbox variations they have now for the 125 Aprilia RSA numbers dozen of different set ups

That happened Renn because Honda & Yamaha stopped making the bikes, Aprilia was all that was left.

[primer]

i for one will be sad when the chequered flag falls on them and i think there is only 2 races at gp level to go.

I for one will be very happy, since the loss of half-strokes means no more annoying, buzzing mosquito sounds. As far as racing itself is concerned, no reason why moto3 won't be a worth successor to 125cc.

[Rennmax]

That happened Renn because Honda & Yamaha stopped making the bikes, Aprilia was all that was left.

Graham, the Honda leasing rates for the 'works' bikes were at least at Aprilia level, weren't they ?

As far as I know, the leasing rate for a 250 works Aprilia was in the region of 1,2 millions Euro. You can buy a lot of moto2 bikes for that amount of money ....

[fil2.8]

See Phil is getting his post count up by posting two of everything!! ??????

Thanks for pointing that out

Plus , of course another posting for answering you

trust you to spot my deliberate ploy

[picblanc]

Graham, the Honda leasing rates for the 'works' bikes were at least at Aprilia level, weren't they ?

As far as I know, the leasing rate for a 250 works Aprilia was in the region of 1,2 millions Euro. You can buy a lot of moto2 bikes for that amount of money ....

True Renn, so I suppose what killed it then were (Factory) teams, if you could just buy them over the counter & get a tuner to work on them i:e Bartol etc they might still be around?
Re Moto2 that is exciting racing, but other than the engines they are proper race bikes.

[Rennmax]

Re Moto2 that is exciting racing, but other than the engines they are proper race bikes.

You must be a brave man for claiming this here Graham

[picblanc]

Lets 'ave' some piccies eh! Fernando Mendes & Alan Patterson 1992.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[picblanc]

You must be a brave man for claiming this here Graham

Brave but stupid! its coz I'am younger than most on here!!

[rd500]

the actual problem for the leasing rates can be easily traced back to where the problems all started, moto gp

as in the 500s the leasing rates were very good in all classes but when they changed the rules in the premier class to introduce the overhyped, expensive failure we know today as moto gp then something had to give

in turn honda and yamaha and aprillia had to increase the costs of the leased machines to cover their budgets on moto gp, when honda and yamaha pulled out as they couldn't afford it, it was then a captive market.

with absolutely no control dished out by the fim or dorna, aprillia could charge what they liked.

"As far as racing itself is concerned, no reason why moto3 won't be a worth successor to 125cc." it depends on wht your perception of racing actually is, ive got mine and it aint moto 2/3.

[picblanc]

And!! remember when they were 125 twins!! here @ Brit GP 1977 Enrico Cereda on the 125 Morbidelli.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[picblanc]

You can see I have been busy!! Chris Palmer 1994.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[rd500]

im sure the racing is exciting graham but this where ezpaleta has dilluded himself, he thinks because it has a race chassis that makes it a gp bike but it has no heart, no soul.

it tries to make up for it with a loud exhaust but its a average dinosaur in a new unstressed suit.

[fil2.8]

Brave but stupid! its coz I'am younger than most on here!!

Don't quite know which of the above I believe

[rd500]

You can see I have been busy!! Chris Palmer 1994.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

excellent picture

[picblanc]

im sure the racing is exciting graham but this where ezpaleta has dilluded himself, he thinks because it has a race chassis that makes it a gp bike but it has no heart, no soul.

it tries to make up for it with a loud exhaust but its a average dinosaur in a new unstressed suit.

Thats true RD, but you guys know all about engines & tech stuff, me & most armchair/trackside punters dont, we just enjoy close racing & noise is a big (loud) part of the excitement, Moto2 is a better spectacle than MotoGP @ the moment as looks like there will only be 13 bikes again this weekend?

[picblanc]

excellent picture

Thank you.

[picblanc]

Off to have me din dins so last for a while, Patrick Corrigan, Robert Dunlop & Julian Perry on the Cobas 1992.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[primer]

the actual problem for the leasing rates can be easily traced back to where the problems all started, moto gp

ITT: Delusional conspiracy theories.

[joeninety]

[quote name='tonyed' date='Oct 18 2011, 07:03' post='5348479']
"Let me try a sensible reply then.We already see whole meetings abandoned and racing delayed due to oil contamination of the track due to oil spillages, this class will just exacerbate the problem"

I would dispute this comment somewhat. Most of the bike racing on TV that I have seen there has been very little in the way of race stoppages from oil spillage, yes the NW was dogged by this problem, compounded by bad weather and the logistics of the circuit. I have in the past seen 250cc races stopped when problems with coolant being dumped on the circuit cause a few prangs. Bring back the MT aircooled Honda's that'll sort it out, they may very well compete in Moto£ and only cost £1200 quid brand new !

Edited by joeninety, 18 October 2011 - 18:31.

[rd500]

couple of pics from the hill 07/08 inc sheep on the hill!

[joeninety]

Are the sheep the organisers ? With all the recent events on this forum regarding BSB's future on 125cc strokers and 250cc Torrey Canyon's, it takes me back to when schoolboy scrambling, as it was known then, allowed 200cc British bikes, usually Tiger Cubs entered by dads who were living in the past.
Also in the good old day's of tarmac stuff there was a class for 125cc and up to 500cc single cylinder " Torrey Canyon's". Nothing changes it seems !
Furethermore I would add my season on a 500 twin whas nothing more than heartache bits falling of everytime so switched to a stroker, a 125 MT Honda, with this I could do National events on a very limited buget and was my ticket to International racing, that's how it should be.

Edited by joeninety, 18 October 2011 - 19:53.

[rd500]

i think you could be right joe, the sheep might have been running things that day

well mackenzie used to swear by them, if they were high up it will be good weather but the lower they get the worse the weather will be!

[picblanc]

Jenny is a bit muddy!! who is the lad on the KRP bike? good piccies.

[picblanc]

Adrian Coates 1994.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[picblanc]

Neil Hodgson & Alan Patterson (again!!) 1992.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[picblanc]

Jimmy Brown 1993.

Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[Rennmax]

...............My question is

Will the 'obsolete" Moto2 and Moto3 bikes ever filter down to the club ranks where Mr Bloggs can get his hands on one, and if so how does he get the parts to keep it running ?? And dose he have the skills to do the maintenance and tuning himself.


The probable answer(s) are NO because.......

There is already a moto2 championship in Spain, so don't be surprised where the next top riders will come from

http://www.cevbuckler.com/es/Moto2.htm

[picblanc]

There is already a moto2 championship in Spain, so don't be surprised where the next top riders will come from

http://www.cevbuckler.com/es/Moto2.htm

What a surprise!