77 replies to this topic

[Engineguy]

I tried to find some NASCAR EFI pictures, or even configuration description of few months ago, but found nothing. Finally, the pics emerge!

Observations:

Single throttle body (like 99.99% of production cars in the world), but like the carb it replaces, it is 4-barrel. Looks like a transition spacer underneath it, probably a spec piece to prevent transition monkey-business and cost of developing same. Maintains single plenum manifold, probably no different from currently used

Eight, count 'em, eight electronic port injectors... probably mandated vertical, probably a mandated Y and Z (cross-car and vertical) distance from transition spacer mounting plane.

Eight, count 'em, eight ignition coils. NASCAR currently mandates a single coil and a mechanical distributor. Could've saved a lot of trouble for all the manufacturers if they'd allowed coil-per-cylinder a few years ago when everyone was designing clean-sheet engines, but everyone was doing it in different years.

Pictures from "Getty for NASCAR"



NASCAR article: http://www.nascar.co...etor/index.html

Additional pictures:

[cheapracer]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 - wow you're right!

Remind me again why are they changing something that wasn't broke?

[Engineguy]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 - wow you're right!

Remind me again why are they changing something that wasn't broke?

Their cache of 1965 carbs was so worn out from being rebuilt hundreds of times, they had to go with something else.

Actually, I think they had become aware that their image was beginning to be tarnished, rather than enhanced, by sticking with carbs and distributors not seen on production cars for decades. By switching to EFI and coil-per-plug, something very easy to do, they eliminate some talking points of people who ridicule NASCAR.

And it gives the series some buzz, and something for the TV personalities to talk about to help fill their 30 hours a week on-air.

[Magoo]

Detroit has been pushing back on NASCAR to provide more production car verisimilitude and EFI was one of the concessions.

You will note that this actually gives NASCAR more control over the engines and technical competition.

[bigleagueslider]

You guys are so superficial. You sadly fail to appreciate just how much engineering and analysis work actually goes into a 680hp pushrod NASCAR V8 engine that can run for over 500 miles. F1 engine companies like Cosworth and Ilmor make lots of NASCAR engine parts.

[cheapracer]

You guys are so superficial. You sadly fail to appreciate just how much engineering and analysis work actually goes into a 680hp pushrod NASCAR V8 engine that can run for over 500 miles. F1 engine companies like Cosworth and Ilmor make lots of NASCAR engine parts.

Not only has the subject been coveted here before from more than one angle but one of the regular posters here makes a professional living out of reporting this stuff for one of the World's more interesting automotive magazines.

[Engineguy]

You guys are so superficial. You sadly fail to appreciate just how much engineering and analysis work actually goes into a 680hp pushrod NASCAR V8 engine that can run for over 500 miles. F1 engine companies like Cosworth and Ilmor make lots of NASCAR engine parts.

Whoa bigleaguer. I certainly DO appreciate the effort involved to extract big power and durability from a 1950s engine architecture. I'm impressed when someone gets a lot of power from an old flathead V8, a Harley V-twin, or a Briggs Raptor. But if I'm a car company that wants to present a modern world class image, I'm a little ashamed to be playing around with carbureted 2-valve pushrod engines in 2011... even if I'm one of them that still sells (very impressive) pushrods.

I thought pushrod V8s and Holley carbs were neat when I was building/driving them in the early '70s, but that's 40 years ago. That I've moved on to be interested in, and more impressed by, more modern engine designs does not make me superficial.

[mariner]

I am not saying that NASCAR engines are moe " intelligent" than F1 because they have two valves, pushrods etc. but a while back a Uk magazine did a rather silly comparison test between a Porsche Cayenne and a Lotus Elise. One had nearly three times the weight and power of the other but was quite close in lap times.

The point they made was that the Porsche was very " clever" i.e the engineers had made it perform well despite its size but the Elise was " intelligent" because the engineers made it do very much on very little by its basic design.

Uisng every exotic idea around to get result X is clever but getting a very similar result with simple things may be more intelligent and actually harder to do.

[Magoo]

You guys are so superficial. You sadly fail to appreciate just how much engineering and analysis work actually goes into a 680hp pushrod NASCAR V8 engine that can run for over 500 miles. F1 engine companies like Cosworth and Ilmor make lots of NASCAR engine parts.

Closer to 900hp, actually.

It's not that we don't appreciate these engines here in the tech forum. More like we follow them closely enough that we might come across as a little bored or jaded at times. For example, the EFI system is a bit underwhelming. It would be nice if NASCAR had allowed something a bit more advanced but that was not going to happen.

EDIT: Here is a representative discussion:

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=112413

Edited by Magoo, 20 October 2011 - 08:54.

[cheapracer]

I thought pushrod V8s and Holley carbs were neat when I was building/driving them in the early '70s...

... and sticking them into the rear of Porsche 911's!

[Greg Locock]

I am not saying that NASCAR engines are moe " intelligent" than F1 because they have two valves, pushrods etc. but a while back a Uk magazine did a rather silly comparison test between a Porsche Cayenne and a Lotus Elise. One had nearly three times the weight and power of the other but was quite close in lap times.

Quick Systems Engineering question: What is the function of a car for a car company?

[gruntguru]

- A means for their staff to get to and from work?
- A reason for consumers to buy spare parts and servicing?

Doh - I give up.

[NeilR]

The point they made was that the Porsche was very " clever" i.e the engineers had made it perform well despite its size but the Elise was " intelligent" because the engineers made it do very much on very little by its basic design.

Uisng every exotic idea around to get result X is clever but getting a very similar result with simple things may be more intelligent and actually harder to do.

Perhaps it is more a reflection on the amount of research, development and refinement that has gone into the NASCAR engines and the type of racing they do. There has been long stable periods to achieve what they are now, whereas you cannot say that for any other international class.

[Magoo]

... and sticking them into the rear of Porsche 911's!

Bolts right in.

[gruntguru]

Closer to 900hp, actually.

It's not that we don't appreciate these engines here in the tech forum. More like we follow them closely enough that we might come across as a little bored or jaded at times. For example, the EFI system is a bit underwhelming. It would be nice if NASCAR had allowed something a bit more advanced but that was not going to happen

Interesting they stuck with the intake restrictor. V8 supercars (aso EFI) limit costs and power using rev limit and CR limit. I must say the higher rpm of Nascar is a better sound. On the other hand the 8 intake trumpets and throttle plates produce a better sound than the carby (I assume the new setup will sound similar) - especially with the air box removed.

[Magoo]

Quick Systems Engineering question: What is the function of a car for a car company?

[Magoo]

Interesting they stuck with the intake restrictor. V8 supercars (aso EFI) limit costs and power using rev limit and CR limit. I must say the higher rpm of Nascar is a better sound. On the other hand the 8 intake trumpets and throttle plates produce a better sound than the carby (I assume the new setup will sound similar) - especially with the air box removed.

NASCAR reduces the power by over 50 percent for the big high-banked tracks at Daytona and Talladega.

[gruntguru]

What do they change?

[Vanishing Point]

I must say the higher rpm of Nascar is a better sound. On the other hand the 8 intake trumpets and throttle plates produce a better sound than the carby (I assume the new setup will sound similar) - especially with the air box removed.

426 Hemi with Hilborn injection if you want the thing to sound right.Probably the best way there is of going deaf. This is close enough.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 20 October 2011 - 23:31.

[Greg Locock]

The answer is to make money in some sense for the company. So an Elise is not a more intelligent solution than the Porsche, for the company. Lotus know this hence the desire to push the brand upmarket, which may or may not succeed. I must admit having driven my sister in law's VX220, which is an elsie under the skin, I was a bit underwhelmed. Far too harsh.But she loves it.

[Vanishing Point]

NASCAR reduces the power by over 50 percent for the big high-banked tracks at Daytona and Talladega.

Sounds like the British idea of how to use a motorway.So they put an effectively lower speed limit on the tracks which were designed to be the fastest which just means yet more bunching because speed differentials will be even lower.The British did something similar but went one better by just stopping all racing and demolishing the track at Brooklands.

Better days.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 21 October 2011 - 00:28.

[Wuzak]

What do they change?

They change or add a restrictor plate between the carby and the manifold.

http://nascar.speedt...-for-talladega/

[Wuzak]

Interesting they stuck with the intake restrictor. V8 supercars (aso EFI) limit costs and power using rev limit and CR limit. I must say the higher rpm of Nascar is a better sound. On the other hand the 8 intake trumpets and throttle plates produce a better sound than the carby (I assume the new setup will sound similar) - especially with the air box removed.

I presume that they didn't wantthe engine bay to end up looking like they do in the V8s



Does anybody know if the EFI package includes a pit lane speed limiter?

If it does it may stop some of the racing that happened in the pits at Bristol.

[Wuzak]

Eight, count 'em, eight electronic port injectors... probably mandated vertical, probably a mandated Y and Z (cross-car and vertical) distance from transition spacer mounting plane.

I wonder if the manifold itself is/will be mandated.

[cheapracer]

V8 supercars (aso EFI) limit costs and power using rev limit and CR limit.

I must say the higher rpm of Nascar is a better sound.

Phhhtt, while using a completely unique engine configuration that dramatically raised the cost of development that pushed most privateers out of the sport. Sure some of them have returned now but only through the years of engine building that has bought the price down from a bullshit level to just a stupid level and is still 2 to 4 times the cost of the Nascar or Sprintcar engine they should have used in the first place.

And they would have sounded better and been faster while being cheaper.

Ironically V8 Supercars even went through a period where they used engines not available in Australia (Chev and Ford V8's).

I presume that they didn't wantthe engine bay to end up looking like they do in the V8s

Ridiculous on a spec racing series (a half million dollar spec race car), how hard is it to say "you're all the same so no one uses them ..".

Nascar has got it all over every other major race series in the world, what do they have - Balls to actually control the series and tell people to "Eff Off" when required.

but the (Lotus) Elise was " intelligent" because the engineers made it do very much on very little by its basic design.

But still charge outlandish prices for less....

Edited by cheapracer, 21 October 2011 - 14:04.

[cheapracer]

Bolts right in.

Phttt, kids stuff (Renegade Conversions in Las Vegas I believe) ... try 455 cubes of Oldmobile Tornado in a Targa! - what sort of demented, crazed, lunatic would do something like that .......



996 with LS2 -

Edited by cheapracer, 21 October 2011 - 14:44.

[GrpB]

The answer is to make money in some sense for the company. So an Elise is not a more intelligent solution than the Porsche, for the company. Lotus know this hence the desire to push the brand upmarket, which may or may not succeed. I must admit having driven my sister in law's VX220, which is an elsie under the skin, I was a bit underwhelmed. Far too harsh.But she loves it.

No, for mainstream manufacturers the goal is to provide a public service of providing an efficient, safe, comfortable and affordable means for private entities to get themselves and their things from one place to another. By providing this means they expect to be compensated appropriately.

Haha, looks so funny in writing, just kidding. Be a real man, put money in my pocket by buying something you can't use to pretend you're doing things you've never done while being largely ineffective at doing the things you should be doing. NASCAR works very well at it's intended purpose, if EFI is an enabler for it to work better, then everyone involved benefits.

[Engineguy]

... try 455 cubes of Oldmobile Tornado in a Targa! - what sort of demented, crazed, lunatic would do something like that .......

I plead youthful exhuberance.

[Vanishing Point]

Phttt, kids stuff (Renegade Conversions in Las Vegas I believe) ... try 455 cubes of Oldmobile Tornado in a Targa! - what sort of demented, crazed, lunatic would do something like that .......



996 with LS2 -

Someone who wants to break the speed record for going backwards into a ditch ?.

But if you were to say what would be the benefits in putting a good old fashioned American pushrod V8 into a V12 Jag XJ.Just wait until you need to do any large scale engine work on the Jag engine to find out.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Does anybody know if the EFI package includes a pit lane speed limiter?

If it does it may stop some of the racing that happened in the pits at Bristol.

Excellent thought, I hadn't thought of that. I'm curious as well.

[cheapracer]

I plead youthful exhuberance.

Well my first conversion was a 12A rotary into a Datsun 1000 coupe including the standard drum brakes, suspension and 12" x 155 conventional tyres! - and it was a hoot

[Canuck]

I trust Holley's EFI works better than their first-generation Projection-4 system I mistakenly installed on my old Chevelle. Didn't last long before going back to the carb.

[Wuzak]

Phhhtt, while using a completely unique engine configuration that dramatically raised the cost of development that pushed most privateers out of the sport. Sure some of them have returned now but only through the years of engine building that has bought the price down from a bullshit level to just a stupid level and is still 2 to 4 times the cost of the Nascar or Sprintcar engine they should have used in the first place.

And they would have sounded better and been faster while being cheaper.

When V8Supercars were being devised the goal was to use the 5l V8s from the production cars. While Ford hadn't run that engine for a few years Holden had been running it in Group A racing.

I am also sure that the power target was somehwhat less than 600hp, but when they started using the better heads/engines direct from their racing parts catalog that went out the window. I'm sure they didn't want 850hp.

While a NASCAR engine may be possible to purchase more cheaply I doubt it would have saved money - because they would have poured money into getting the best from that as well. Ford and Holden also would not have wanted to run carby cars - so converting to EFI and the development on that side would have been the same.

Ironically V8 Supercars even went through a period where they used engines not available in Australia (Chev and Ford V8's).

While initially some Holdens used Holden engines (ie Larry Perkins) the reality is that no production Holden has ever had the 5.0l Chevy motor. The Ford engine was more closely related to what was on the road, but not since 2002 (IIRC).

Ridiculous on a spec racing series (a half million dollar spec race car), how hard is it to say "you're all the same so no one uses them ..".

V8Supercars are not a spec series. They are tightly controlled in many areas, but there are still some areas of difference. The chassis while, using the same wheelbase and so forth, are not spec items. That will change in 2013 when they will be spec chassis.

Obviously the engines are not spec, as there are a few engine builders/suppliers.

They have cut costs in the past few years by making the brakes (disc and rotors), ECU, wheels, etc spec. The 2013 spec chassis cars are expected to cut the car cost in half.

[Wuzak]

I trust Holley's EFI works better than their first-generation Projection-4 system I mistakenly installed on my old Chevelle. Didn't last long before going back to the carb.

Was that injection into the throttle body? What sort of ECU did it have?

Here is a piece on the fuel injection system from NASCAR.com

http://www.nascar.co...tion/index.html

Apparently the drivers described the throttle response as "soft".

[Wuzak]

Excellent thought, I hadn't thought of that. I'm curious as well.

Another question is will they have the ability to use different engine maps for full power or fuel saving?

[Engineguy]

I trust Holley's EFI works better than their first-generation Projection-4 system I mistakenly installed on my old Chevelle. Didn't last long before going back to the carb.

The system uses a McLaren-built ECU built around a Freescale microcontroller chip... and presumably McLaren Electronics' sensors, and programming. All Holley has to do is supply a simple mechanical assembly, the throttle body. Hard to mess that up... they've manufactured millions for their carbs and EFI.

McLaren is "Official ECU of NASCAR"
Freescale is "Official Semiconductor of NASCAR"

Holley NASCAR EFI Press Release and big ass picture of the TB at:
http://www.holley.co...eyNews/News.asp

"The new Holley throttle bodies are constructed of aerospace quality billet aluminum and will be machined on five-axis CNC machines to hold the demanding tolerances required in NASCAR racing. They feature 17-4 stainless steel throttle shafts, throttle levers and linkage to handle the extreme conditions found in NASCAR racing. The throttle shafts and throttle plates are profiled for maximum airflow. The throttle shafts will ride on sealed needle bearings for smooth operation and durability. The venturii have been contoured for efficient yet maximum airflow. A positive throttle stop has been built in as an added safety feature. Each throttle body will be anodized for corrosion protection and then individually serialized for NASCAR."

[GreenMachine]

... The venturii have been contoured for efficient yet maximum airflow ...

Venturi? What for? Aren't we talking about fuel injection?

[Engineguy]

Venturi? What for? Aren't we talking about fuel injection?

You're correct that should have said "the throttle bores" since there is no venturi shape, but the term venturi has long been casually used to designate the hole itself, not just the shaped area.

Edited by Engineguy, 22 October 2011 - 13:08.

[Vanishing Point]

The system uses a McLaren-built ECU built around a Freescale microcontroller chip... and presumably McLaren Electronics' sensors, and programming. All Holley has to do is supply a simple mechanical assembly, the throttle body. Hard to mess that up... they've manufactured millions for their carbs and EFI.

McLaren is "Official ECU of NASCAR"
Freescale is "Official Semiconductor of NASCAR"

Holley NASCAR EFI Press Release and big ass picture of the TB at:
http://www.holley.co...eyNews/News.asp

"The new Holley throttle bodies are constructed of aerospace quality billet aluminum and will be machined on five-axis CNC machines to hold the demanding tolerances required in NASCAR racing. They feature 17-4 stainless steel throttle shafts, throttle levers and linkage to handle the extreme conditions found in NASCAR racing. The throttle shafts and throttle plates are profiled for maximum airflow. The throttle shafts will ride on sealed needle bearings for smooth operation and durability. The venturii have been contoured for efficient yet maximum airflow. A positive throttle stop has been built in as an added safety feature. Each throttle body will be anodized for corrosion protection and then individually serialized for NASCAR."

Something like this,but using throttle bodies and injection instead of the carbs,fitted to an LS3 or the 7 Litre Corvette motor seems like a better idea to me.Just so long as they don't then want it fitted with restrictors afterwards.The word 'soft' seems a good description of the whole NASCAR scene at the moment.


http://www.webcon.co...CV401-MAR07.pdf

[cheapracer]

V8Supercars are not a spec series.

And neither is F1

Not "spec" by name but speccing the performance ends up as the same result regardless.

You do know that some Ford's have been converted to Holdens and vice versa such are they the same ....

[cheapracer]

Venturi? What for? Aren't we talking about fuel injection?

If it retains traditional shaped venturi's....

Presuming the same plenums that have been developed over the last 286 years to suit the 4 barrel carb will be used, then I presume they wanted to keep the same flow characteristics with this one to save a lot of time and development - over to Magoo...

Edited by cheapracer, 22 October 2011 - 14:24.

[Lee Nicolle]

Someone who wants to break the speed record for going backwards into a ditch ?.

But if you were to say what would be the benefits in putting a good old fashioned American pushrod V8 into a V12 Jag XJ.Just wait until you need to do any large scale engine work on the Jag engine to find out.

There is a Jaguar powered XJ12? I though they all had Chevs in them 20 years ago!
Then you have a car that starts everytime and uses about 1/3 the amount of petrol and only has oil added at services. And your driveway is not an oil soaked mess!!
As for Chevs in a Porsche if you use an engine with alloy heads and intake it probably weighs no more, though ofcourse is considerably higher. And you have to use the right gearbox too or they break and cost heaps.
I have seen an early 80s one with this set up and it has been reliable for 15 years though was a dog to start with mounting radiators and the like.

[Lee Nicolle]

I tried to find some NASCAR EFI pictures, or even configuration description of few months ago, but found nothing. Finally, the pics emerge!

Observations:

Single throttle body (like 99.99% of production cars in the world), but like the carb it replaces, it is 4-barrel. Looks like a transition spacer underneath it, probably a spec piece to prevent transition monkey-business and cost of developing same. Maintains single plenum manifold, probably no different from currently used

Eight, count 'em, eight electronic port injectors... probably mandated vertical, probably a mandated Y and Z (cross-car and vertical) distance from transition spacer mounting plane.

Eight, count 'em, eight ignition coils. NASCAR currently mandates a single coil and a mechanical distributor. Could've saved a lot of trouble for all the manufacturers if they'd allowed coil-per-cylinder a few years ago when everyone was designing clean-sheet engines, but everyone was doing it in different years.

Pictures from "Getty for NASCAR"



NASCAR article: http://www.nascar.co...etor/index.html

Additional pictures:

But have they found any horsepower or reliability from this set up? Maybe a few more laps from fuel, but the tyres will be worn out way before that anyway. But they may idle nicer!
It looks like a Holley street efi set up apart from the coil packs.

[Wuzak]

It looks like a Holley street efi set up apart from the coil packs.

Don't they inject into the throttle body?

[Vanishing Point]

There is a Jaguar powered XJ12? I though they all had Chevs in them 20 years ago!
Then you have a car that starts everytime and uses about 1/3 the amount of petrol and only has oil added at services. And your driveway is not an oil soaked mess!!

It's not as common to see those conversions this side of the pond probably because of the supply situation in which local supplies of cheap V12's have produced the same situation of cheap power as US V8's provide over there.Not so long ago it was easy to get a new V12 6.0 Litre crate engine (which is what I did with mine),from the local Jaguar dealer,for less than the cost of a Chevy V8,let alone all the parts needed to convert the Jag to use the V8.It provides almost the same power but more torque when it's fitted with Weber throttle bodies and modern engine management than the 6.0 Litre LS2 in a VXR8 for example and the fuel consumption is about the same for both cars.Oil leaks were mainly caused by the old type rear main oil seal which was changed to the more modern type in the later engines and valve cover gaskets.

But it's when it comes to needing to do some overhaul work that there's no contest.It's at that point when things like even simple jobs like timing chain replacement,valve clearance adjustment,let alone heads off or a full engine rebuild or modifications make the Chevy V8 (especially with a gear driven camshaft) the better,simpler and (much) cheaper option and I'd bet that the V12 in the Aston DB9 is even more complicated and expensive to work on.That's when you realise that all the advances in overhead cam,excessivley complicated engines, seem pointless especially when the performance of something like an LS2 powered VXR8 is compared to the V12 or even the later V8 powered Jags or a 6/7 Litre Corvette when compared to the V12 Aston and most other types of European type fast cars.

[nosaj100]

Another question is will they have the ability to use different engine maps for full power or fuel saving?

I haven't heard a yes or no either way but I would hope they can. Otherwise, it seems like a complete waste of time and money to make the switch if teams aren't allowed to "play" with their maps.

I do, however, remember reading that NASCAR will confiscate the ECUs at the end of every race. From what I understood, you show up to the track, pick up your unit, load your maps, NASCAR inspects everything, you race, NASCAR inspects again, and finally takes everything back up.

[Canuck]

Thanks Engineguy. I would expect they'll pull off the throttle body just fine.

Was that injection into the throttle body? What sort of ECU did it have?

Here is a piece on the fuel injection system from NASCAR.com

http://www.nascar.co...tion/index.html

Apparently the drivers described the throttle response as "soft".

The Projection-4 was a 4-injector, 4-barrel throttle body injection bandaid. It had a locked black box with a series of trim pots for various areas of the map. Hardly a tunable unit and it was

[Canuck]

Thanks Engineguy. I would expect they'll pull off the throttle body just fine.

Was that injection into the throttle body? What sort of ECU did it have?

Here is a piece on the fuel injection system from NASCAR.com

http://www.nascar.co...tion/index.html

Apparently the drivers described the throttle response as "soft".

The Projection-4 was a 4-injector, 4-barrel throttle body injection bandaid. It had a locked black box with a series of trim pots for various areas of the map. Hardly a tunable unit by today's measure and it was impossible to get everything sorted out properly - there were dips and holes all over the place. Ignition control was not handled by the EFI. In my case I used a Jacobs Electronics box (because MSD was passé) and that created all sorts of nightmares as the injectors would fire any time the ignition was powered whether the engine was running or not. Weird stuff.

[Wuzak]

Thanks Engineguy. I would expect they'll pull off the throttle body just fine.

The Projection-4 was a 4-injector, 4-barrel throttle body injection bandaid. It had a locked black box with a series of trim pots for various areas of the map. Hardly a tunable unit by today's measure and it was impossible to get everything sorted out properly - there were dips and holes all over the place. Ignition control was not handled by the EFI. In my case I used a Jacobs Electronics box (because MSD was passé) and that created all sorts of nightmares as the injectors would fire any time the ignition was powered whether the engine was running or not. Weird stuff.

So it was severely lacking in the ECU department.


Wonder what one of the NASCAR engines could do with a V8Supercar style system?

Some of the Sports Sedans in Australia now run NASCAR engines. Anybody know if these keep the carbies or have injection put on them?

[wonk123]

So it was severely lacking in the ECU department.


Wonder what one of the NASCAR engines could do with a V8Supercar style system?

Some of the Sports Sedans in Australia now run NASCAR engines. Anybody know if these keep the carbies or have injection put on them?

Almost all still use a carby. I am currently making an 8 TB manifold for a couple of SB2.2s, I hope to have them on the dyno within a month