22 replies to this topic

[Leif Snellman]

I'm forwarding this letter I have recieved:

"I have a Cisitalia 202 Coupe which was a Factory Team Car (S/N-066) and competed in both the 1948 Mille Miglia and Targa Florio races. From published photographs I am fairly certain that the car was assigned number 107 in both races. This would make Macchiaraldo the driver in the MM (from Canestrini's book on the MM), but I can not determine who drove car #107 in the Targa Florio. All of my reference books only list the finishing positions by car and driver with no mention of the car's actual number. Any help would be greatly appreciated."

Sincerely,
Ed Godshalk
edg@mxim.com

[alessandro silva]

You could make a try at:

Circolo Auto d'Epoca Vincenzo Florio
Piazza Scalia, 2
90141 Palermo (Italy)

and/or

Associazione Siciliana Piloti Auto Storiche
via dei Nebrodi 22
90144 Palermo.

If you tell them all the story, my guess is that they will find the answer; if you ask just for the driver/number, my guess is that they'll do nothing.

A more direct approach could be:

Automobile Club d'Italia - Palermo
Commissione Sportiva
via delle Alpi 6
90144 Palermo

but in my experience local Autoclubs do not answer, but I never tried Palermo.

BTW The correct spelling is Macchieraldo

[Marcor]

Here's some results of the Cisitalias in the 1948 Targa Florio. You unknwon driver could be one of them.

2nd- Piero Taruffi / Rabbia Cisitalia 202 coupe
3rd- Macchieraldo / Savio Cisitalia
7th- La Motta Cisitalia
Retired- Bernabei Cisitalia 202 SMM 1100 001 "Box" Berlinette
Retired- Luigi Villoresi Cisitalia 1100 cc

[alessandro silva]

Car # 107 at the 1948 Targa Florio/Tour of Sicily was the one of Macchieraldo-Savio that finished third overall. I have a photo if still needed.

[Doug Nye]

Car number 107 in the 1948 Mille Miglia was attributed to Macchieraldo/Castelli - starting at 03:32 -timed through Rome after 6hrs 41mins 14secs - did not finish.

DCN

[alessandro silva]

107 was the number assigned to Macchieraldo supposedly for the entire season in the preposterous system adopted by CSAI for 1948. This system collapsed by June.

[Michael Müller]

Wasn't 1948 the year in which in Italy the drivers had fixed race numbers (acc. to the number of their licence or so)? So #107 should be same driver at the TF and the MM.

[Michael Müller]

Oops, Sandro was faster...

[dretceterini]

Is this the ex-Mille Miglia car that was imported to the US by Pompeo and sold to Dick Gent, or is that another car?

There is a photo of Gent with it and another car he bought from Pompeo (with a wrong description) in Automobile Quarterly's issue 44-3.

The other car in AQ photo is described as a Cisitalia 1100 spider bodied by Rocco Motto. The car is indeed a Motto bodied car, but I'm not sure if it is a Bandini, a Siata or just what it is; can't make out the script on the nose. I'm 100% sure it is NOT a Cisitalia though...it might be an SVA...as Savonuzzi was later with SVA, after he left the relationship with Cisitalia..

[alessandro silva]

This is the car against a perfectly Sicilian background.
Sorry for the poor quality. It is scanned from Auto Italiana #7, 15/04/1948.

[dretceterini]

Here is a link to the photo of the Gent Cisitalia 202 MM coupe (note that the side treatment is not the typical two portholes) and the Motto bodied spider. The spider is NOT a Cisitalia, but IS a Motto body. There is a similar looking Motto bodied Ferrari 250 spider. I am not certain what it the Motto bodied is...can't make out the script on the nose or on the sides near the cockpit
SVA? Bandini? Siata? Actually, the script looks kind of like 750 Testadoro (from GR Casa dell'Auto) to me..

Allesandro, any idea?



http://pg.photos.yah...5de.jpg&.src=ph

[vintageautomobilia]

When I traded my Motto bodied SIATA DAINA spider for CISITALIA 202 Coupe (chassis #046), I was told it was the 1948 Mille Miglia car driven by Guido Scagliarini and Maffiodo (race number 15) which finished 5th overall. There is a picture of this car on page 19 of MILLE MIGLIA -- THE POSTWAR YEARS by Andrea Curami.

Even though there is a genuine connection between my Cisitalia 202 coupe 046 and a person named Scagliarini, and even though I would be VERY HAPPY if my car actually is the MM car driven by Guido Scagliarini, I don't think it is. The MM race coupes for 1948 were very much different from the normal 202 coupes. If you look at pictures of the 1948 MM 202 coupes you can see they have a third windshield wiper above the driver's side of the windshield, large air vents for the front brakes, another air vent (probably for an oil cooler) under the grill, louvers in the hood, and a large rectangular louvered panel in the rear side of the front fenders instead of port holes. There was also a round hole in the middle of the rear window to exhaust air from the cockpit. I'm sure there were other differences, but these are the ones you can see in photos.

Now, I know of course it's possible to take the 1948 MM 202 coupes and later change them back into normal street 202 coupes, but I have a hard time seeing Cisitalia doing that. They would have to weld up all those extra holes and I've looked carefully at my car and there is no evidence of the third windshield wiper hole, or the brake vents, oil cooler vent, or the extra louvers. I suppose if I were a different sort of person, I could add all these features, and voila, one of the 1948 MM cars, but I'm not.

So I keep looking for someone who can tell me the real history of my 1947/48 Cisitalia 202 coupe, chassis number 046, and its connection to the Scagliarini name.

[dretceterini]

Yes, but the Gent car is claimed to be ex-Mille Miglia (click on the link to the photo I posted) and it still has the bumpers and all the trim!


Stu

[vintageautomobilia]

Stu,

Anyone can "claim" anything, and captions like that are often wrong.

Also, Cisitalia used the designation "MM" for their dual carburetor, higher horsepower motor, so any car equiped with the "MM" type motor could be misconstrued as a Mille Miglia car. Many of the "street" 202's had "MM" type motors. The Gent 202 coupe pictured looks like a normal Cisitalia 202, albiet with unusual side vents or portholes.

To further confuse the issue, private parties entered street 202's in several of the Mille Miglia races, even into the mid 1950's I believe.

[vintageautomobilia]

The Motto bodied barchetta next to Dick Gent's Cisitalia 202 coupe is a Bandini 1100. The script on the nose is the Bandini script. I believe that at least two Bandini 1100's had Motto barchetta bodies that were somewhat similar to each other.

Interestingly, the Bandini chassis are similar (but not identical) in design to the chassis of my Motto-Cisitalia 1100. Large diameter oval tube, underslung (under the axle) at the rear, with parallel leaf springs. My chassis was made by Gilco for Motto -- perhaps Motto liked the basic Bandini design. Did Gilco do the Bandini chassis as well? Seems likely.

[dretceterini]

I think Gilco which is now called Trafiltubi, and is near Milan (the company of Gilberto Colombo) actually built 90% of all the Italian tube chassis in this period; some to their own design, and some to the design of people at various auto companies..such as the chassis for the C-52 "Disco Volante" Alfa...It was Alfa designed, but Gilco built!

The same is the case for all Ferrari chassis up to about 1958....

Stu

[Ed Godshalk]

The photo of Richard Gent does indeed show the 202 corsa coupe that was #540 in the Mille Miglia. In other photos of this car you can see the vent hole in the rear window. I provided a photo that is in Mario Simoni's new Cisitalia book. Two of the 202 Corsa coupes that raced in the Targa and MM in 1948 were apparently converted back to street cars in some respects, but also retained some of the Corsa options (#540 and #107). The only car to remain largely unaltered is chassis 067, that ran as #15 in the MM.

I have studied chassis #066 and #067 extensively, and the third car is in the UK, so I do not think that Peter Zobian's car can be one of the three 202 Corsas - sorry!

Ed Godshalk

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by Ed Godshalk
The photo of Richard Gent does indeed show the 202 corsa coupe that was #540 in the Mille Miglia. In other photos of this car you can see the vent hole in the rear window. I provided a photo that is in Mario Simoni's new Cisitalia book. Two of the 202 Corsa coupes that raced in the Targa and MM in 1948 were apparently converted back to street cars in some respects, but also retained some of the Corsa options (#540 and #107). The only car to remain largely unaltered is chassis 067, that ran as #15 in the MM.

I have studied chassis #066 and #067 extensively, and the third car is in the UK, so I do not think that Peter Zobian's car can be one of the three 202 Corsas - sorry!

Ed Godshalk

Ed,
I think I did say that I am quite sure my Cisitalia 202 coupe #046 is NOT one of the three 202 Corsas. As I said, my car shows no evidence of any of the corsa modifications. My car left Italy in 1964 when it was sold into Germany. I have the German registration (log book) from that period which shows that the Italian person who sold the car was a "Mr. Scagliarini" of Turin, Italy. I have no knowledge that my car was ever in any Mille Miglia, but I do want to find out whatever I can about the "Scagliarini" connection.

An interesting side note is that the German regristration number that was first assigned to Cisitalia 202 #046 was N- JA 211. this was almost immediately changed to N- AU 202. This probably means absolutely nothing, but it's a cool license number for a Cisitalia 202!

[MOB]

Unfortunately i can't see the link on dretceterini's post...so i can't help you so much :-S
but all chassis Bandini was surely by Bandini and anyone else.
Dick Gent had a Bandini 1100 Siluro 1947. this car did Millemiglia in 1949 (driver Ilario Bandini) and other race in italia :giro dell'umbria, Pescara etc..then went to U.S.A thanks to Tony Pompeo was the first car exported to U.S.A.
if you have infos or pictures about Bandini or whatever doubt please help us to draw up Bandini register.

ciao
Michele O.B.

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by MOB
Unfortunately i can't see the link on dretceterini's post...so i can't help you so much :-S
but all chassis Bandini was surely by Bandini and anyone else.
Dick Gent had a Bandini 1100 Siluro 1947. this car did Millemiglia in 1949 (driver Ilario Bandini) and other race in italia :giro dell'umbria, Pescara etc..then went to U.S.A thanks to Tony Pompeo was the first car exported to U.S.A.
if you have infos or pictures about Bandini or whatever doubt please help us to draw up Bandini register.

ciao
Michele O.B.

Michele,

I am sure that Bandini designed the chassis - at least he drew it the way he wanted it, but did Bandini actually bend the tubes and weld up the chassis? Or was this specialist work done by someone else? The logical choice at that time would have been Gilco - they were doing it for a lot of other small builders.

Dick Gent's 1947 Bandini 1100 Siluro was quite famous in the US and was featured in several period magazines, and on the cover of at least one.

[MOB]

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia


Michele,

I am sure that Bandini designed the chassis - at least he drew it the way he wanted it, but did Bandini actually bend the tubes and weld up the chassis? Or was this specialist work done by someone else? The logical choice at that time would have been Gilco - they were doing it for a lot of other small builders.

Dick Gent's 1947 Bandini 1100 Siluro was quite famous in the US and was featured in several period magazines, and on the cover of at least one.

It's logical maybe, but not correct.

Ilario was a particular person, he has a small production but he preferred that the most possible parts of it was of Bandini construction (like steering whell and later rims ). thanks this concept he became engineer h.c. and this is the difference to other small builders.
Bandini was a small builder, but not an assembler.

In particular, the chassis was made by oval tubes (1,8 mm thick) bend and weld up directly in workshop! the tubes came from Caproni (light planes industry) of Predappio (Forlì).
Chassis Bandini have a peculiarity of the frontal frame named "culla" in addition to lightness and drew.


Michele O.B.

[biz5300]

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia
When I traded my Motto bodied SIATA DAINA spider for CISITALIA 202 Coupe (chassis #046), I was told it was the 1948 Mille Miglia car driven by Guido Scagliarini and Maffiodo (race number 15) which finished 5th overall. There is a picture of this car on page 19 of MILLE MIGLIA -- THE POSTWAR YEARS by Andrea Curami.

Even though there is a genuine connection between my Cisitalia 202 coupe 046 and a person named Scagliarini, and even though I would be VERY HAPPY if my car actually is the MM car driven by Guido Scagliarini, I don't think it is. The MM race coupes for 1948 were very much different from the normal 202 coupes. If you look at pictures of the 1948 MM 202 coupes you can see they have a third windshield wiper above the driver's side of the windshield, large air vents for the front brakes, another air vent (probably for an oil cooler) under the grill, louvers in the hood, and a large rectangular louvered panel in the rear side of the front fenders instead of port holes. There was also a round hole in the middle of the rear window to exhaust air from the cockpit. I'm sure there were other differences, but these are the ones you can see in photos.

Now, I know of course it's possible to take the 1948 MM 202 coupes and later change them back into normal street 202 coupes, but I have a hard time seeing Cisitalia doing that. They would have to weld up all those extra holes and I've looked carefully at my car and there is no evidence of the third windshield wiper hole, or the brake vents, oil cooler vent, or the extra louvers. I suppose if I were a different sort of person, I could add all these features, and voila, one of the 1948 MM cars, but I'm not.

So I keep looking for someone who can tell me the real history of my 1947/48 Cisitalia 202 coupe, chassis number 046, and its connection to the Scagliarini name.

Hi there

I have a recent picture of 067 the scagliarini team car ..still in unrestored condition.. Cant say more,.. :-)nik

[etceterini.com]

Yes,
As Michele Bandini said, Bandini made his tube frames himself. If the car in
the Automobile Quarterly is blue then it is the 750cc Bandini Siluro now onwed by
Dr. Norifumi Uryu in Japan:



CR
www.etceterini.com