35 replies to this topic

[AAGR]

OK, here's one for the dark evenings, and for the knowledgeable pundits.

Which of every vintage/classic/historic race cars that we know has probably raced the most miles in its life ?

I'm guessing at a 1930s ERA of one type or another ?

AAGR

[kayemod]

AAGR, on Dec 5 2011, 18:25, said:

I'm guessing at a 1930s ERA of one type or another ?

AAGR

But they'd mostly be quite short races.

I'd guess at a car that had done LeMans or other endurance races several times. I don't know too much about 'olden times', but some individual Porsche 962s and Ford GT40s finished those events four or five times, that must have clocked up quite a distance in total.

[Allen Brown]

I think we've done this before. I offered up Lola T330 HU2 which participated in at least 120 British F5000, US F5000,Can-Am and CAT races over a 16-season career and Fines then trumped me IIRC with an Indy car with the engine in the wrong end that had spent decades turning endlessly left in the minor leagues.

For all we know there's some Ralt RT4 still hacking round Hallett on its 27th season of MidWest SCCA Formula Atlantic...

[Vitesse2]

AAGR, on Dec 5 2011, 17:25, said:

OK, here's one for the dark evenings, and for the knowledgeable pundits.

Which of every vintage/classic/historic race cars that we know has probably raced the most miles in its life ?

I'm guessing at a 1930s ERA of one type or another ?

AAGR

Generally reckoned to be Remus. But as Rob says, generally short races apart from when Rolt had it in 1938-39. The ex-Poore (etc, etc) Alfa Romeo 8C-35 will have done a lot of miles, as will several Bugatti T35s, Alfa Monzas and probably some other Alfas which went to South America. Even the Seaman Delage, although that's been taken apart, reassembled and rebuilt so many times it would be difficult to make a case for the whole of it! Maybe the gearstick or the steering column?

[Michael Ferner]

May I respectfully nominate "Minnie"? 1930 Miller, ran in twelve Indy 500s and finished three of them, logging a total of 1,015 laps = 2,537 and a half miles. Add to that about 2,000 miles more in other competition, and we get close to 5,000 miles in toto, outside of endurance racing!

[Tim Murray]

Here's the earlier thread referred to by Allen:

Longest-used racing cars

It contains Martin Krejčí's nomination - Porsche 908/3 chassis 008, with 115 starts in sports car races. I'd have thought that it would have the edge in any mileage competition.

[Allan Lupton]

Just to put a Vintage perspective on it, the Bentley "Old No. 7" that won Le Mans in 1927 did 1472 miles that year and probably 1400+ the year before, so quite a good start in terms of racing miles from two starts.
So far as ERAs go, my money would be on R4D (né R4B) which has been owned by competitive folk throughout its 76 years - number of starts would be extremely high, although racing miles are probably not.

[Alan Cox]

NART's Ferrari 250LM #5893 certainly clocked up a lot of racing miles before being retired to the Indianapolis Museum. At least 6 World Championship 24-hour races (although it didn't finish them all) would amass quite a distance. I reckon it will have raced at least 15,000 kms.

[Ralf Pickel]

Don´t forget Eddie Hall´s Bentley 3.5 / 4 1/4 B35AE.
He did TT s, Le Mans etc pre war and his last Le Mans in 1950. Always driving on the road to the events, supposedly being retired at about 130 000 Miles on the odometer.

[fbarrett]

Ralf Pickel, on Dec 5 2011, 13:42, said:

Don´t forget Eddie Hall´s Bentley 3.5 / 4 1/4 B35AE.
He did TT s, Le Mans etc pre war and his last Le Mans in 1950. Always driving on the road to the events, supposedly being retired at about 130 000 Miles on the odometer.

Ralf:

Not fully retired, though. It did 1,000 miles on the Colorado Grand a few years ago.

Frank

[D-Type]

Did any car do more than one Carrera Panamericana? Either the real one or the modern imitation.

Edited by D-Type, 05 December 2011 - 22:56.

[Lee Nicolle]

As I said on the similar thread Jim Doigs one owner, one sponsor Motorlab ASP clubman/Sports Racer.It has 'doors' and has always been raced with at least a 1600 Celica engine. It has been racing for 40 years and seldom has ever missed a local racemeeting. Plus ofcourse has raced in most states too.
It has gone from a new car to a historic in the one owner/drivers hands. And is still winning, and beating far more modern cars.

[Stephen W]

AAGR, on Dec 5 2011, 17:25, said:

raced the most miles in its life?

I would suggest that any of the cars used in British hillclimbing for many seasons on end would hardly feature as most venues are less than a mile for a single run!

[ray b]

may be an old beat to death 356 or 911 or tr3
or some other common cheaper racer
they could race every week end for years on end
not building miles in huge endurance chunks
but steady use and regular rebuilds

[wenoopy]

I'm not sure if these cars would fit the criteria or have the correct pedigree, but every car that finished the 1949 Argentine Gran Premio de la Republica would have covered 11035 km. The finishers in the previous year's Gran Premio America del Sur (Buenos Aires to Caracas) would have covered 9579 km. I don't know if any car actually finished both races. Mostly modified Ford and Chevrolet saloons or coupes, they could be equated to sports cars, perhaps.

[Charlieman]

wenoopy, on Dec 7 2011, 10:46, said:

I'm not sure if these cars would fit the criteria or have the correct pedigree, but every car that finished the 1949 Argentine Gran Premio de la Republica would have covered 11035 km.

Or any of the 23 cars that completed the 1970 London to Mexico rally would have covered 16,000 miles. I believe that an expert on this event recently joined, so I'll shut up ;-)

[E1pix]

I would suspect a club racing Bugeye Sprite must have some decent mileage by now.

[Russ Snyder]

Michael Ferner, on Dec 5 2011, 18:01, said:

May I respectfully nominate "Minnie"? 1930 Miller, ran in twelve Indy 500s and finished three of them, logging a total of 1,015 laps = 2,537 and a half miles. Add to that about 2,000 miles more in other competition, and we get close to 5,000 miles in toto, outside of endurance racing!

nice one

1939,40,41,46,47,48 Boyle/Henning Maserati @ Indy 500?

500, 500, 151, 500, 500, 500....

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Russ - yes, the Boyle Maser had a better Indy performance, but it didn't run outside of the Speedway, so overall, "Minnie" retains the mileage record.

[Peter Leversedge]

Were is the Boyle Maserati today?

[David McKinney]

It's been in the Indianapolis Speedway Museum since 1955

[delta44]

I should think in modern day historic racing Duncan Rabagliati's Alexses FJ"The Carrot" must be a contender.I would certainly put money in the car being raced at more circuits than any other car.

[Russ Snyder]

Michael Ferner, on Dec 9 2011, 20:22, said:

Thanks, Russ - yes, the Boyle Maser had a better Indy performance, but it didn't run outside of the Speedway, so overall, "Minnie" retains the mileage record.

No problem Michael.

....just Indy and what car ran the most miles/laps? Boyle Mas jumped to mind. The Blue Crowns 1947-1952.
Shaw Pay car... Indy and outside the speedway should have some miles on it as well.

[D-Type]

This really depends on the detailed question:

(1) Most racing miles?
(2) Most races?
(3) International races - or any races?
(4) Races only in period - or do we include historic races?
(5) Single seater races only - or sports car races as well?

All of these sub-definitions can seriously affect the outcome.

In the US a track car could have several years in the top flight, ie Indianapolis, then several years as a dirt car at championship level, then down the gradings ending up as a super modified or somethink
Similarly, some midgets were raced several nights a week for several years.
Then international sports cars could also have a relatively long life and compete in several long races. For example Aston Martin only built four DBR1s that raced as works cars from 1956 to 1959 and then in private hands after that. Some Ferraris also did the rounda.

Edited by D-Type, 12 December 2011 - 15:59.

[Doug Nye]

Amongst Formula 1 cars BRM P5781 'Old Faithful' was used Internationally in the 1961-62-63-64-65 seasons by the BRM works team, BP Italia/Scuderia Centro Sud and by BP France/Maurice Trintignant. BRM personnel talk of the chassis having accumulated 20,000 miles. The racing total is considerably less than that, but the testing mileage boosted that total tremendously. For sheer longevity in action at premier level - five seasons - I believe only Lotus 49 and 72 identities challenge that. And it's the old lady's 50th next year... She is preserved today in exquisite running order in the Collier Collection - and sends her regards to all her fans.

DCN

[kayemod]

Doug Nye, on Dec 13 2011, 09:21, said:

For sheer longevity in action at premier level - five seasons - I believe only Lotus 49 and 72 identities challenge that. And it's the old lady's 50th next year... She is preserved today in exquisite running order in the Collier Collection - and sends her regards to all her fans.

DCN

That's almost amusing, considering the accusations constantly levelled against Colin Chapman by the inadequately informed, for building fragile cars. Strong cars incorporating the occasional flimsy feature though, I'd have to allow...

[David McKinney]

Doug Nye, on Dec 13 2011, 08:21, said:

For sheer longevity in action at premier level - five seasons - I believe only Lotus 49 and 72 identities challenge that.

...not to forget the 250F Maserati

[Macca]

David McKinney, on Dec 13 2011, 10:00, said:

...not to forget the 250F Maserati

How could we? It took part in the first and last GPs of a formula that lasted 7 years - bit of evolution along the way, 'tho.

Same with Lotus 49 and 72; there were umpteen changes through their lives.

And as for the list of failures.........
49:radius arm mounts caving-in, needed doublers; tub coming apart round front rockers, had to be re-rivetted over new diaphragm bulkheads; 'Christmas tree' rear suspension mounts flexing and coming loose, Alan McCall's fix ignored until 49B came out; high wings falling off umpteen times, not just at Montjuich; etc.

72: original tubs 'took a set' due to lack of torsional strength; brake shafts; strengthening generally for Ronnie in 1973; etc.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 13 December 2011 - 12:55.

[kayemod]

Macca, on Dec 13 2011, 13:55, said:

And as for the list of failures.........
49:radius arm mounts caving-in, needed doublers; tub coming apart round front rockers, had to be re-rivetted over new diaphragm bulkheads; 'Christmas tree' rear suspension mounts flexing and coming loose, Alan McCall's fix ignored until 49B came out; high wings falling off umpteen times, not just at Montjuich; etc.

72: original tubs 'took a set' due to lack of torsional strength; brake shafts; strengthening generally for Ronnie in 1973; etc.

Paul M

"But apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

[Michael Ferner]

Russ Snyder, on Dec 12 2011, 15:42, said:

No problem Michael.

....just Indy and what car ran the most miles/laps? Boyle Mas jumped to mind. The Blue Crowns 1947-1952.
Shaw Pay car... Indy and outside the speedway should have some miles on it as well.

An interesting question, and I'm not sure I can answer that. May be a little fun in checking out the usual suspects...

Maserati 8CTF '3032': 1206 laps
1947 Moore (Bettenhausen/Holland, Blue Crown '1' 917 laps
1947 Moore (Rose, Blue Crown '2' 893 laps
1936 Shaw (Shaw, "Pay Car" 1402 laps (1540 laps incl. 1948 rebuild)
1930 Miller (Cantlon, "Minnie" 1015 laps
1923 Miller (Murphy): 200 laps (952 laps incl. 1924 rebuild)
1924 Duesenberg (Boyer): 478 laps (955 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1925 Miller (Hill/Haibe): 182 laps (1207 laps incl. 1930 & '38 rebuilds)
1927 Detroit-Miller (Milton): 466 laps (2020 laps incl. 1932 & '38 rebuilds)
1927 Miller (de Paolo): 149 laps (1378 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1927 Cooper (McDonogh): 466 laps (1127 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1928 Miller (Comer): 203 laps (2058 laps incl. 1932 & '38 rebuilds)
1930 Sampson (Meyer): 1146 laps
1930 Schneider (Schneider): 1307 laps
1930 Miller (Allen): 662 laps (1062 laps incl. 1937 rebuild)
1931 Miller (Hepburn): 1117 laps
1931 Schneider (Schneider): 931 laps
1931 Duray (Duray): 811 laps (1661 laps incl. 1939 & '46 rebuilds)
1933 White (Triplett): 1259 laps
1934 Marks (Petillo): 670 laps (1555 laps incl. 1938 & '47 rebuilds)
1935 Petillo (Petillo): 609 laps (926 laps incl. 1939 rebuild)
1939 Moore (Wearne): 1002 laps
1948 Kurtis (Brown/Hinnershitz): 936 laps
1962 Watson (Templeman): 800 laps

This list is certainly not exhaustive (though it darn nearly exhausted me, compiling it! ), and I didn't check many postwar cars after realising that none were coming anywhere near the prewar figures, but there are a few surprises, aren't there? Also, there's some difficulty in where to draw a line when a car gets rebuild, as the two Miller front drives that ran their totals over the 2,000 mark were hardly recognisable in their ultimate form, whereas the Murphy Miller didn't change all that much (although I can't say with 100 % confidence that it was the same car, after all). The Shaw "Pay Car" indeed appears to be the overall winner in "unmolested form", but the 1930 Schneider runs a surprisingly close second, and the 1933 White an even more surprising third, considering that the car finished the race only twice, and never in the top 5. All three cars also logged a considerable number of miles on the dirt tracks, unlike the Boyle Maser which finishes up "only" fourth in Indy race laps, or at the tail end of the top ten if all rebuilds are to be included.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 14 December 2011 - 13:34.

[Russ Snyder]

Michael Ferner, on Dec 14 2011, 14:25, said:

An interesting question, and I'm not sure I can answer that. May be a little fun in checking out the usual suspects...

Maserati 8CTF '3032': 1206 laps
1947 Moore (Bettenhausen/Holland, Blue Crown '1' 917 laps
1947 Moore (Rose, Blue Crown '2' 893 laps
1936 Shaw (Shaw, "Pay Car" 1402 laps (1540 laps incl. 1948 rebuild)
1930 Miller (Cantlon, "Minnie" 1015 laps
1923 Miller (Murphy): 200 laps (952 laps incl. 1924 rebuild)
1924 Duesenberg (Boyer): 478 laps (955 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1925 Miller (Hill/Haibe): 182 laps (1207 laps incl. 1930 & '38 rebuilds)
1927 Detroit-Miller (Milton): 466 laps (2020 laps incl. 1932 & '38 rebuilds)
1927 Miller (de Paolo): 149 laps (1378 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1927 Cooper (McDonogh): 466 laps (1127 laps incl. 1930 rebuild)
1928 Miller (Comer): 203 laps (2058 laps incl. 1932 & '38 rebuilds)
1930 Sampson (Meyer): 1146 laps
1930 Schneider (Schneider): 1307 laps
1930 Miller (Allen): 662 laps (1062 laps incl. 1937 rebuild)
1931 Miller (Hepburn): 1117 laps
1931 Schneider (Schneider): 931 laps
1931 Duray (Duray): 811 laps (1661 laps incl. 1939 & '46 rebuilds)
1933 White (Triplett): 1259 laps
1934 Marks (Petillo): 670 laps (1555 laps incl. 1938 & '47 rebuilds)
1935 Petillo (Petillo): 609 laps (926 laps incl. 1939 rebuild)
1939 Moore (Wearne): 1002 laps
1948 Kurtis (Brown/Hinnershitz): 936 laps
1962 Watson (Templeman): 800 laps

This list is certainly not exhaustive (though it darn nearly exhausted me, compiling it! ), and I didn't check many postwar cars after realising that none were coming anywhere near the prewar figures, but there are a few surprises, aren't there? Also, there's some difficulty in where to draw a line when a car gets rebuild, as the two Miller front drives that ran their totals over the 2,000 mark were hardly recognisable in their ultimate form, whereas the Murphy Miller didn't change all that much (although I can't say with 100 % confidence that it was the same car, after all). The Shaw "Pay Car" indeed appears to be the overall winner in "unmolested form", but the 1930 Schneider runs a surprisingly close second, and the 1933 White an even more surprising third, considering that the car finished the race only twice, and never in the top 5. All three cars also logged a considerable number of miles on the dirt tracks, unlike the Boyle Maser which finishes up "only" fourth in Indy race laps, or at the tail end of the top ten if all rebuilds are to be included.

I thank you for the exhaustive work.

The lifespan of a race car from the late 1920's to early 1950's is well documented by this list you have compiled.

the Shaw pay car may be among the winners of most miles/laps completed by a race car in america.

[fatbaldbloke]

Some of the BMC works machines in the 50s and 60s did huge competition milages as they were used on all manner of events. MG B registration GRX 307D 'Old Faithful' took part in the Monte carlo rally, won her class on the Targa Florio, 3rd in class Mugello 6 hours, won the Marathon when it was an 84 hour race at the Nurbrurgring, won her class in the Spa 1000kms and placed well in the Montlhery 1000kms. Hao many of the componenst that started the first event finished the last is questionable, but that's true of all old race cars.

[Peter Morley]

Elva Courier E1201 first raced at the 1966 Sebring 12 hours and was still being raced as a contemporary (e.g. not in historics) car into the 21st century.
It won the 2002 SCCA E-production championship (against Mazdas etc)!
It was still being raced in 2008 when it was reclassified as F-production and won an SCCA regional race at Buttonwillow.

Surely that has to be one of the longest histories as a contemporary race car?

[URY914]

I would think some of the GT-40's and Porsche 962/956's and 935's that ran in several races at Daytona, Sebring and LeMans would have racked up the miles driven. Plus they are still be driven in historic events.

Take the factory 956-003 car it must have +10,000 race miles on it. I'd consider that "most-used".

[Tim Murray]

Tim Murray, on Dec 5 2011, 18:19, said:

It contains Martin Krejčí's nomination - Porsche 908/3 chassis 008, with 115 starts in sports car races. I'd have thought that it would have the edge in any mileage competition.

Here's the race listing for this car from Martin Krejčí's Racing Sports Cars site:

http://www.racingspo...08__03-008.html

These include finishes in twenty 1000 km/6 hour races and one Le Mans (where it covered 4,278 km). This gives a good 24,000 km before adding in all the 90+ results from shorter races and DNFs.

[AnnieOz]

What about the Bira K3? It has a long history in Australia including multiple Australian GPs, Historic events, a return trip to the UK to compete, countless road miles and still competes to this day?