71 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

You guys really don't understand how investment funds work.

[icecream_man]

You guys really don't understand how investment funds work.

Well ok, are you saying that a company would want to buy out a sport and NOT try to promote it more / make it more successful in their country ?

Edited by icecream_man, 26 February 2012 - 22:46.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Any bank/investment fund/etc buying into F1 will have the same goals. Maximising revenue and eventually selling their stake for a profit. That it's theoretically an American investment group doesn't mean they're suddenly going to turn it into NASCAR.

[slmk]

Which is relevant to my intended point that what is fan-friendly over there may not be fan friendly in Europe. Certainly F1 has never made it big in the US before so it's not unreasonable to suggest that to make it fan-friendly over there could potentially take away what makes it fan-friendly in Europe.

We have Football, which is not that popular in the US, the US has American football, which is not that popular in Europe.
We have F1, which is not as popular in the US, the US has Nascar, which is not so popular in Europe.
The US have baseball, basketball, drag racing, which are.... well, you must be seeing the pattern by now surely ?

And in response to the above post, I have no chip on my shoulder, neither am I hostile, I'm simply pointing out we have significant differences...

You're just generalizing and using cliches and stereotypes to prove your point. FYI, baseball and basketball, unlike football (US), are truly global sports (very popular in Asia and Latin America). Europe does not represent the World, and, with the fall of many European countries due to the financial crisis and the rise of China/India and the rest of Asia, Europe as a whole stands to become increasingly irrelevant.

By fan-friendly, I mean having more of a hands-on coverage, making drivers and team principals more accessible to the public, having a better broadcast experience (better race weekend coverage, having shows every now and then with pundits/drivers, etc.). It's just about enhancing the experience. One aspect where F1 is definitely lacking is accessibility and I think that American ownership (or any sensible ownership really) could really improve. That alone could go a long way in making the sport more popular in the USA as well.

[slmk]

Any bank/investment fund/etc buying into F1 will have the same goals. Maximising revenue and eventually selling their stake for a profit. That it's theoretically an American investment group doesn't mean they're suddenly going to turn it into NASCAR.

You are partly right but that American fund might be more inclined to invest time and money in the USA. Where you are wrong is that PE firms don't necessarily care about revenues; they care about cash flows. There's a difference but in the context of this discussion it's a pointless argument.

[P123]

Geezzzz, and go back to the original story, how has it been transmogrified from "San Francisco-based private equity firm Hellman & Friedman is considering a bid for the commercial rights of Formula 1" to "US COMPANY TO TAKE OVER F1 AND MAKE IT ALL OVALS".

Seriously, some of you people need to put your panic buttons back in your pockets and pull your heads out of your arses. For a start owning the commercial rights does NOT mean they make the rules per se.

Neil

Yeah, quite amusing to see more than a few chewing their fingers off in panic that an AMERICAN company may be interested in the commercial rights. F1 now to become all oval and all American...... becuase, you know, F1 is so popular in the US and that would be a sure way for any investor to gain a return on their investment.

[P123]

Which is relevant to my intended point that what is fan-friendly over there may not be fan friendly in Europe. Certainly F1 has never made it big in the US before so it's not unreasonable to suggest that to make it fan-friendly over there could potentially take away what makes it fan-friendly in Europe.

We have Football, which is not that popular in the US, the US has American football, which is not that popular in Europe.
We have F1, which is not as popular in the US, the US has Nascar, which is not so popular in Europe.
The US have baseball, basketball, drag racing, which are.... well, you must be seeing the pattern by now surely ?

And in response to the above post, I have no chip on my shoulder, neither am I hostile, I'm simply pointing out we have significant differences...

Europe is no longer deemed of great importance to the current commercial rights holder.

[icecream_man]

By fan-friendly, I mean having more of a hands-on coverage, making drivers and team principals more accessible to the public, having a better broadcast experience (better race weekend coverage, having shows every now and then with pundits/drivers, etc.). It's just about enhancing the experience. One aspect where F1 is definitely lacking is accessibility and I think that American ownership (or any sensible ownership really) could really improve. That alone could go a long way in making the sport more popular in the USA as well.

Can't disagree with that at all.

I still think we have a significant difference in what interests us, but whatever. I'm just surprised that pointing it out gets such a heated response, after all English music and comedy tends to be more popular in Europe than in the US, it's nothing to get uptight about, it's just the way it is. I would suggest those reacting so strongly to a simple observation might think more carefully about where a "chip on the shoulder" might exist cos it sure ain't here !

Edited by icecream_man, 26 February 2012 - 23:11.

[slmk]

Can't disagree with that at all.

I still think we have a significant difference in what interests us, but whatever. I'm just surprised that pointing it out gets such a heated response, after all English music and comedy tends to be more popular in Europe than in the US, it's nothing to get uptight about, it's just the way it is. I would suggest those reacting so strongly to a simple observation might think more carefully about where a "chip on the shoulder" might exist cos it sure ain't here !

You're getting a heated response because of the cliches and stereotypes; because your responses don't make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

Owning the commercial rights to F1 (ie. FOM) is just about having a claim in the revenues and cash flows it produces, that's all. Did you know that JP Morgan and Lehman Brothers used to own (and still own, in JPM's case) a stake in FOM? Did they turn the business upside down, adding ovals, McDonalds, 3 trillion commercials, etc. No.

Also, it's highly likely that a lot of the creditors (ie. institutions or people owning debt in FOM and its related companies) are American institutions; have they demanded that shareholders (ie. CVC, JPM and Bernie) turn that thing upside down? No.

Some people in here made a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, USA and Europe are culturally different but business is business, and it often transcends culture.

Edited by slmk, 27 February 2012 - 00:05.

[Tsarwash]

As people have said, I doubt whether any commercial rights holder would do that much to change things too much.

Having said, I do doubt that any of the sensible improvements slmk mentions would make a large impact on the American viewing public. Many people I have spoken too regarding the Indycar series thinks that it is dying a slow death. Americans like Nascar. That's fine, but I just don't see F1 making much of an impression over there just yet, given how different it is from the popular series over there.

(and forgot to put the stupid smiley on my initial post.)

[icecream_man]

Some people in here made a mountain out of a molehill.

You're not joking there !!

Ok point taken, chill out

[icecream_man]

Having said, I do doubt that any of the sensible improvements slmk mentions would make a large impact on the American viewing public. Many people I have spoken too regarding the Indycar series thinks that it is dying a slow death. Americans like Nascar. That's fine, but I just don't see F1 making much of an impression over there just yet, given how different it is from the popular series over there.

Yes exactly right imo

[slmk]

As people have said, I doubt whether any commercial rights holder would do that much to change things too much.

Having said, I do doubt that any of the sensible improvements slmk mentions would make a large impact on the American viewing public. Many people I have spoken too regarding the Indycar series thinks that it is dying a slow death. Americans like Nascar. That's fine, but I just don't see F1 making much of an impression over there just yet, given how different it is from the popular series over there.

(and forgot to put the stupid smiley on my initial post.)

That's where you're wrong. NASCAR is more or less a regional sport in the USA, very strong in rural areas and the "Deep South" (South and Southeast USA). And it isn't even that popular on TV (ie. the ratings aren't even close to the NFL and probably more on par with NBA/MLB/Collegial Sports, except for the marquee events like the Daytona 500 and the Indy 400 which get a slight bump). It's just a very, very fan-friendly sport, easily accessible, provides good value - none of these things which can be said of F1 right now. Also, having a field that's 99% American helps.

To be popular in the USA, F1 will need an F1 driver and/or an F1 team; both would obviously be the best but it's highly unlikely given USF1's failure. And need a young, very marketable driver, a-la Alonso/Hamilton (when they came in). That's what helped Spain become a huge market for F1; same for Canada (which, on a regular basis, doesn't give a damn about F1 except for when it comes to Montreal and when Jacques / Gilles used to be in F1).

What F1 is lacking now is visibility in the USA. Having 2 GPs in two very different regions and two very different settings shall help a lot in that regard. If American corporations (who currently are swimming in cash) see the product and like it as an investment opportunity, it might be the first step towards a US-funded team or a US driver getting the funding to go through lower classes in Europe and hopefully landing a seat in F1.

It has to start somewhere, you know? People don't become F1 fans overnight, especially not when there is so much competition in the sport universe.

Edited by slmk, 27 February 2012 - 10:18.

[Ross Stonefeld]

NASCAR isn't as big as NFL no, but it's pretty damn big. And it is a national sport. One of the advantages it has over something like baseball is all of it's fans watch all of the 'games'.

[slmk]

NASCAR isn't as big as NFL no, but it's pretty damn big. And it is a national sport. One of the advantages it has over something like baseball is all of it's fans watch all of the 'games'.

It's big, but:

1) Ratings are very average except for the marquee events

http://www.jayski.co...ratings2011.htm

2) Despite what you say, it is not popular at the national scale; people in the big coastal cities (ie. big and wealthy media market like NYC/LA/SF/Miami/Boston/Seattle) seldom care about NASCAR; however, NASCAR is very popular in the Southeast and the Midwest. On the other hand, American Football, Baseball are popular everywhere; pretty much the same for basketball. Soccer and Ice Hockey are getting there too.

3) The only way NASCAR is "national" is that it is broadcast nationally - in fact its TV contracts (with FOX/TNT/ESPN and ABC) are a good reason why this sport has so much visibility; that's one thing F1, if it wants to get bigger in the USA, will have to do - negotiate a TV package with either one of the four large broadcast networks (CBS, ABC, NBC or FOX) or with ESPN. SpeedTV (or any other marginal player) is not the answer.

[Sakae]

That's where you're wrong. NASCAR is more or less a regional sport in the USA, very strong in rural areas and the "Deep South" (South and Southeast USA). And it isn't even that popular on TV (ie. the ratings aren't even close to the NFL and probably more on par with NBA/MLB/Collegial Sports, except for the marquee events like the Daytona 500 and the Indy 400 which get a slight bump). It's just a very, very fan-friendly sport, easily accessible, provides good value - none of these things which can be said of F1 right now. Also, having a field that's 99% American helps.

To be popular in the USA, F1 will need an F1 driver and/or an F1 team; both would obviously be the best but it's highly unlikely given USF1's failure. And need a young, very marketable driver, a-la Alonso/Hamilton (when they came in). That's what helped Spain become a huge market for F1; same for Canada (which, on a regular basis, doesn't give a damn about F1 except for when it comes to Montreal and when Jacques / Gilles used to be in F1).

What F1 is lacking now is visibility in the USA. Having 2 GPs in two very different regions and two very different settings shall help a lot in that regard. If American corporations (who currently are swimming in cash) see the product and like it as an investment opportunity, it might be the first step towards a US-funded team or a US driver getting the funding to go through lower classes in Europe and hopefully landing a seat in F1.

It has to start somewhere, you know? People don't become F1 fans overnight, especially not when there is so much competition in the sport universe.

Idea of introducing F1 in current form in US is not new. Pushing american youngsters through traditional prep-school for F1 is not new, been there/done that, and after decades (?) of trying, here we are, back to square one. America needs their own Vettel and their winning team. That might perhaps do the trick. It's as simple as that.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Decades? We send barely anyone abroad.

[Sakae]

Since 1908...

[David M. Kane]

talking about insults and hypocrisy,you should look in the mirror.

As someone said John Bishop did a pretty good job running IMSA a very successful racing series. I do agree F1 needs to be run out of Europe. I personally don't even like NASCAR that much.

Have a lovely Euro day...

Currently Conor Daly, Rossi an another are in Europe and all are looking headed in the right direction. Sorry to youngster #3 for not remembering his name.

Edited by David M. Kane, 28 February 2012 - 03:57.

[Jimisgod]

You're just generalizing and using cliches and stereotypes to prove your point. FYI, baseball and basketball, unlike football (US), are truly global sports (very popular in Asia and Latin America). Europe does not represent the World, and, with the fall of many European countries due to the financial crisis and the rise of China/India and the rest of Asia, Europe as a whole stands to become increasingly irrelevant.

By fan-friendly, I mean having more of a hands-on coverage, making drivers and team principals more accessible to the public, having a better broadcast experience (better race weekend coverage, having shows every now and then with pundits/drivers, etc.). It's just about enhancing the experience. One aspect where F1 is definitely lacking is accessibility and I think that American ownership (or any sensible ownership really) could really improve. That alone could go a long way in making the sport more popular in the USA as well.

European football is probably about the most global sport there is. Outside of the USA I doubt it would be difficult to find fans of EPL teams or high profile players like Ronaldo in any city. Does it need the USA? Basketball has some exposure in Asia, baseball in a few areas of Central America, but discount the US factor and I think they would wind up behind MotoGP over all.

No one cares for pundits, more races are necessary and drivers who don't outwardly appear like robots. More successful 'Asian' drivers could be the best move, look what Jeremy Lin did for the NBA. Whoever they are, they need to win.

[slmk]

European football is probably about the most global sport there is. Outside of the USA I doubt it would be difficult to find fans of EPL teams or high profile players like Ronaldo in any city. Does it need the USA? Basketball has some exposure in Asia, baseball in a few areas of Central America, but discount the US factor and I think they would wind up behind MotoGP over all.

No one cares for pundits, more races are necessary and drivers who don't outwardly appear like robots. More successful 'Asian' drivers could be the best move, look what Jeremy Lin did for the NBA. Whoever they are, they need to win.

That's your opinion, but judging from what recent sports leagues have done, you are totally wrong. Sports leagues have been pushing towards making their sport more accessible to fans. You are never going to get more than 20 races unless Bernie manages to drug or somehow blackmail team principals. Some drivers do appear like robot but it's more because they are being told to toe the line (remember, F1 is a very cold and "corporate" world) and because of their relative young age than because of their lack of personality/identity.

Lastly, Kobe Bryant / Lebron James / Michael Jordan / Shaq O'Neil are way more popular worldwide than any Moto GP rider, even Rossi. NBA has a star power than few other sports can rival (EU football, tennis and maybe F1 are the only ones I can think of). The sport is growing massively worldwide and a lot of countries are quietly becoming very good and forces to be reckoned with. Also, there a lot of strong domestic leagues outside of the USA.

Lastly, while a successful Asian (read: Chinese) may do much good in terms of corporate sponsorship and visibility (see: Li Na, when she won Roland Garros), China has yet to adopt the sport as its own and develop a tradition. Has the Chinese GP spawned a team and driver(s)? No. Likewise for Indian drivers (Force India isn't what I would call an Indian team but I guess it's a start since it's backed by Indian money).

[David M. Kane]

Aside from idiotically quoting Clarkson, it also shows how little you know about NASCAR. The cars may be somewhat primitive in spec, but believe me the tech and aero that goes into them to scrape every millimetre of speed is only slightly less than F1. But hey, let's follow the way of your hero and not let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Neil

I can guarantee you one thing NASCAR fans are a lot happier than the average light pocketed F1 fan. They have lot more exposure to the drivers and the cars; and its not just about the high rollers at the Paddock Club at $4,500 per head.

F1 has lost its soul.