37 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

I know that topic is a very speculative one, but I was thinking a little bit about what would happen with McLaren if Bruce hadn'd had his fatal accident. I mean: In these days many drivers formed their own team as Jack Brabham, Chris Amon and more did - so Bruce McLaren. But we know that Jack Brabham lost his interest in his own racing team and sold it. But what was Bruce McLaren a kind of guy? Would he also lost interest in his team and sold it? Perhaps after his own racing career? Would there be a McLaren team as we know it today if Bruce had survived the crash?

I know, that are not really nice questions, but that are questions, they really interested me...

[kayemod]

I know, that are not really nice questions...

Well, you certainly got that bit right...

[RStock]

I often wonder what would of happened at Ferrari if Dino hadn't died.

[Ray Bell]

Did Brabham lose interest in his racing team?

Or was he 'moved' to get out of it by 'family pressures'?

[D-Type]

Rob,
Bearing in mind that HistoryFan is not a native English speaker and is not as fluent in English as some posters, we should give him some slack. The question he asks is perfectly valid and no different to many that have been asked in this vein. He has also communicated that he appreciates the delicacy of the situation given Bruce's untimely death. So I think your criticism is uncalled for.

[larryd]

I often wonder what would of happened at Ferrari if Dino hadn't died.

This sort of thing is not in the best of taste, gentlemen.



Please do not go there.

[RStock]

This sort of thing is not in the best of taste, gentlemen.



Please do not go there.

I honestly don't know why. It is pointless however, as nothing can be done but speculate. But I don't know how it's in bad taste. I think Dino would have done an excellent job running the company.

[Lee Nicolle]

I honestly don't know why. It is pointless however, as nothing can be done but speculate. But I don't know how it's in bad taste. I think Dino would have done an excellent job running the company.

And possibly Ferrari may have stayed independent.
This subject seems to upset people, and it is what ifs and maybes. But Bruce Mclaren may have still been running Mclaren, or maybe he would have got out like Black Jack for the money when it became less fun and more business.

[macoran]

would of happened

yes....what would OF happened ?
.........................

[wildman]

... or maybe he would have got out like Black Jack for the money when it became less fun and more business.

I think this is the most likely scenario. Bruce was an astute businessman, but my sense is that he didn't have the expansive ambition of a Penske or a Ganassi. He probably would've followed in the footsteps of Brabham, Jim Hall or JYS and moved on when the time (or the money) was right.

[Ray Bell]

Jack, I reiterate, didn't get out when he chose at all...

He bowed to pressures from his family. It is also true that he had plenty of business interests set up by then, but he has repeatedly said that he got out too early.

[Lee Nicolle]

Jack, I reiterate, didn't get out when he chose at all...

He bowed to pressures from his family. It is also true that he had plenty of business interests set up by then, but he has repeatedly said that he got out too early.

It would have been interesting to see. Money and technical advantages by others may well have defeated Jack, who was no chicken by then anyway. And maybe his family were right. Though it would have ben nice to see him race 'safer' forms of motorsport in the late 60s.

[Ray Bell]

Remember that two close finishes in which he lost for silly reasons cost Jack his fourth World Title in 1970...

He still had plenty of fire in the belly.

[Lola5000]

Remember that two close finishes in which he lost for silly reasons cost Jack his fourth World Title in 1970...

He still had plenty of fire in the belly.

How do you work that out Ray?
9,6,4,3,2,1 points.
reverse the 2 races and Ickx would have won the WC by 1 point from Rindt with Brabham in 4th spot.

[Ray Bell]

Must have been more than two races, then...

I know Jack makes a point about it.

[HistoryFan]

I think this is the most likely scenario. Bruce was an astute businessman, but my sense is that he didn't have the expansive ambition of a Penske or a Ganassi. He probably would've followed in the footsteps of Brabham, Jim Hall or JYS and moved on when the time (or the money) was right.

Interesting would have been when that had happened: If Bruce had run his own racing team until the 80s, I think Ron Dennis had entered F1 with another team and so it could be that McLaren has the same history as the Brabham team or Lotus team. If Bruce hadn't run the team until the 80s then it would perhaps be the same history as now, because Teddy Meyer then had run the team until Dennis came. The other question is how Bruce McLaren also had concentrated on other racing series as McLaren was entering IndyCar, CanAm races and so on until the 70s.

[Tim Murray]

Must have been more than two races, then...

Engine unreliability cost him another possible win in Spain - he was challenging Stewart for the lead and would certainly have finished second, so far ahead of the rest were they. He was also holding a strong third place in his last GP in Mexico when the engine blew.

[f1steveuk]

My answer would to be to see Bruce as he was, a racer, through and through. Another such "racer" would be , say, Frank Williams. Now if you look at how things have panned out for Frank, he has kept with what he knows, and more importantly, loves, and my personal opinion is that Bruce would have done the same, he'd still be at the helm, probably still be sitting on the pit wall at every Grand Prix and still loving the challenge.

[mfd]

Remember that two close finishes in which he lost for silly reasons cost Jack his fourth World Title in 1970...
He still had plenty of fire in the belly.

I was only thinking about this a couple of days ago. Despite being close in 1970, spin back to 1967 as well - Jack Brabham & Denny Hulme win a couple of GP's a piece & Black Jack, "the boss" loses his current World title to his team mate by a mere five points on corrected scores. Could you see that happening today?

[BRG]

What ifs can be interesting. Bruce was only 32 years old when he lost his life. By the standards of the day, he still had many years of top line racing ahead of him, had he chosen to continue. After all, Black Jack was still winning in F1 and was 11 years older.

Might Bruce have had tempting offers in the future from other teams - Ferrari, Lotus - that would have led him to curtail at least the F1 side of his team? I could see a scenario where that happened, whilst the team continued in Can-Am and maybe extended into F5000, F2 and Indy (as it indeed did). Or perhaps quietly closed down when Can-Am ended.

So were there ever any rumours of other F1 drives or was Bruce already seen as wholly wedded to his own team?

[Catalina Park]

Bruce was telling everyone that he was going to retire from racing and was going to continue with the test driving.

[David McKinney]

My recollection of what was being said at the time was that the M6GT was the first step towards going into road-car production, possibly at the expense of continuing with the racing team. Certainly his own retirement from driving was more than hinted at

[Nigel Beresford]

At the time of Bruce's death in 1970 McLaren were in the process of moving from 5 David Road to a larger facility at 17 David Road. Bruce had also set out his ideas for the M16 on the way home from Indy - hardly the actions of someone on the verge of chucking it all in . Although I was a child at the time, I well recall the ins-and-outs of the goings on at Colnbrook as related by my father at the end of every working day. Knowing the personalities involved, the commitment and passion of Bruce and the small group of people working at McLaren Racing at the time, it's amusing to read opinions that Bruce would have been motivated by financial gain to sell off the team or go and work for another team.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 30 December 2011 - 18:41.

[MCS]

Must have been more than two races, then...

I know Jack makes a point about it.

I watched the Spanish GP on You Tube - or somewhere - recently and he really should have won that. I was surprised and either didn't know or had forgotten...

Edit: for more details see Tim's post!

Edited by MCS, 30 December 2011 - 18:43.

[kayemod]

My recollection of what was being said at the time was that the M6GT was the first step towards going into road-car production, possibly at the expense of continuing with the racing team.

No, not really. The M6GT was originally intended to be a Group 4 GT customer car, to be sold to private owners, nothing more. I don't recall that there was any intention at least initially, to make a road-going version or to run a McLaren works team. When the project was well under way, the FIA moved the goalposts as they often did, and stipulated a 50 car minimum production run, though as we all know, Porsche and Ferrari found ways around this. That was the point at which Bruce shelved the original project and modified the prototype into a mildly more civilised road car version, OBH 500 H. Although driveable, it was pretty crude in mosts respects, I only ever sat in it, but by all accounts, the noise was horrendous among other things, and the driver had to get out of the car to raise the headlights, so all in all it was a bit of a lash-up. There was some vague talk of licencing an outside manufacturer, possibly Trojan to turn out tamer versions, though I doubt if they could have coped with the project in economic numbers, and the ideas was dropped pretty quickly. The original design was pretty uncompromisingly racer-ish, it was nothing more than a CanAm car with a roof, Specialised Mouldings only ever made four bodies, and a comprehensive redesign would have been needed for a civilised version. That would have been expensive, and although fairly wealthy by the standards of racing teams in the 70s, McLaren just didn't have the funds, the point being that they always were, and were always going to be, racers pure and simple, and that summed up Bruce. McLaren completed one car, and Trojan made a further three, but only Bruce's prototype was ever intended for road use as far as I know, and I doubt if even he ever put many miles on it.

[Ray Bell]

HistoryFan mentions Teddy Mayer...

Looking at the facts, both Teddy Mayer and Tyler Alexander, who'd been with Bruce since 1963, remained with McLaren more or less forever. They were very close to each other and to Bruce, the kind of people Bruce chose to have around him.

Sure, Teddy went off and spent time with Penske, but he returned too. These blokes give the indication that Bruce would never have deserted his team.

[AJB]

When the project was well under way, the FIA moved the goalposts as they often did, and stipulated a 50 car minimum production run, though as we all know, Porsche and Ferrari found ways around this.

The FIA requirement for 50 cars to be built in 12 consecutive months in order to qualify for Group 4 was introduced for the 1966 season, well before the introduction of the McLaren M6A for the 1967 CanAm series. The production requirement was reduced to 25 cars for the 1969 season and those cheating swines at Porsche came up with a devious plan to thwart the FIA - they actually built the required 25 cars, lined them up in front of the factory and invited the FIA inspector to get in and drive any of them. I'm not so sure about the Ferrari 512, but it could actually be one of the rare occasions when Ferrari did build the required number of cars.
The story at the time was that McLaren wanted the FIA to include the M6B spyders sold to American customers (possibly building 25 sets of coupe bodies so that they could be converted if necessary), but they refused.

[Pete Stowe]

Phil Kerr provides some relevant insights in his excellent book “To Finish First”.

In 1969 - “Indianapolis, the 4WD Formula One car, and Formula 5000 had not been the only other challenges occupying Bruce’s mind. He was also intent on developing a road-going sports car.”
Phil also states that the prototype was built around the production M6B tub; that they bought a Lotus Europa to pull apart for ideas; they also went to Jensen in Wolverhampton to discuss the possibility of them building the production models. “Bruce was absolutely serious about it.”
Phil also says “….Bruce and I were trying to think ahead. Looking a few years down the track, was McLaren going to be purely a racing team, or might it have been more like Ferrari or Lotus with a production car arm benefitting from success on the track? Through 1969, though, there was simply too much else going on for us to be able to develop a true pre-production prototype for Jensen to work with. The idea never moved any further.”

Also, on Bruce driving, Phil mentions that: “Late in 1969, Bruce started making reference to the possibility of retiring from driving, particularly in Formula One but perhaps also Can-Am” and talks were held with Chris Amon and Jackie Stewart.

[David McKinney]

Thanks Pete - that accords pretty much with my recollection from the time

[kayemod]

My recollections from back then, admittedly both vague and unreliable after all this time, and almost entirely hearsay, is that there was no mention of an M6 road car until after the FIA refused to count M6 CanAm variants in the production numbers. McLaren had spent a fair amount of money with Specialised Mouldings to get that far, and were seeing if they could salvage something from the aborted project, but when they realised how much additional work and expense was going to be needed, they dropped the whole idea to concentrate on what they were best at, which was of course racing.

[HistoryFan]

Thank you for that interesting discussion!

[Pete Lyons]

"The M20. She's a lovely old girl, so docile, you could do yer shoppin' in 'er." When Denny Hulme guest-drove Bob Lee's M20 at Monterey, in 1992 I think, shortly before his passing, someone across a cheery dinner table asked about The Bear's favorite McLaren and he instantly cited that 1972 Can-Am model. That's an approximate quote from memory, I didn't have a recorder going, but I've never been able to get the notion out of my head: A revised, rationalized, roomier monocoque with integral roof, still with side-rads to keep heat away from the cabin, a slightly softened Big Block and gentler clutch with synchronized shifting (I'm not Denny Hulme) ... A most Happy New Year, everyone!

[bradbury west]

Off thread a bit, but....
Pete, what a wonderful shot you used in Vintage Racecar recently of the dirt car racer sideways but under perfect control at Altamont from your father's archives . Perfect example of both genres- car control and a perfectly timed shot. Many thanks
Roger Lund

[RStock]

Did Bruce ever show any desire to return to his native New Zealand, and not just to visit? That could have been a factor in what would have came of his company.

[thatguy0101]

I'm not so sure about the Ferrari 512, but it could actually be one of the rare occasions when Ferrari did build the required number of cars.

IIRC, by the time Ferrari released the 512, the homologation requirement was loosened. The 917s were built to Gp 4 for 1969, then shunted to a new Gp 5 for 70 and 71; Gp 4 was revised to require hundreds of cars; thus volume homologation specials like the BMW CSL and Porsche RS 2.7 in the seventies. I've seen sources that say Gp 5 had a minimum of 25 cars and sources that claim no minimum. IIRC, twelve 512s were built as either 512S or 512M; for example, Penske's car was built as a 512S and rebuilt by Penske's crew as a 512M.

[AJB]

IIRC, by the time Ferrari released the 512, the homologation requirement was loosened. The 917s were built to Gp 4 for 1969, then shunted to a new Gp 5 for 70 and 71; Gp 4 was revised to require hundreds of cars; thus volume homologation specials like the BMW CSL and Porsche RS 2.7 in the seventies. I've seen sources that say Gp 5 had a minimum of 25 cars and sources that claim no minimum. IIRC, twelve 512s were built as either 512S or 512M; for example, Penske's car was built as a 512S and rebuilt by Penske's crew as a 512M.

The FIA "Sports Cars" category was called Group 4 in 1969, and renamed as Group 5 for 1970/71, but in all cases a minimum production of 25 cars in 12 consecutive months was required, which Porsche obviously complied with by lining up 25 cars for inspection. However, for 1971 the FIA stipulated that "the organizers shall have to admit, for events opened to Group5, cars complying with the technical specifications hereunder, even if they are not FIA recognized on the basis of 25 ex/year", which wasn't a sneaky way of allowing Ferrari 512s to race as they were homologated in 1970, apparently having built 25 cars.

[VWV]

I am half way though reading George Begg's excellent book Bruce McLaren Racing Car Constructor.

The book also provides clues to the question how long Bruce would keep the team asked in the thread http://forums.autosp...howtopic=159249 (See page 127 4th paragraph for clues). George states " Early in 1966 Bruce was lamenting over having to run Bruce McLaren Racing business during the winter off season while Teddy was away"

The book implies that Bruce was sort of like Colin Chapman, an engineer, an idea man, a test driver, a racing driver, a man not interested in the day to day runing of a business which was Teddy strength. This was George's opinion so take it with a grain of salt but George was with the team during Bruce's time. "What if" questions in my opinion are a waste of time.

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/B000FH60KC

http://www.bruce-mcl...ical-books.html

[Bob Riebe]

How would Bruce McLaren have dealt with the Porsche invasion of Can-Am?

Did he have enough pull at Chevy to get to get developed earlier, reliable, even larger blocks that came about later?