45 replies to this topic

[34psi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene
So, graphene is 200x stronger than steel, can easily stretch to + 20% of its manufactured size. And is 1 atom in thickness and basically invisible.
In theory it could hold the weight of an elephant stood on a pencil on a sheet thinner than cling film!!
Super conductive (100,000,000x more than copper/silver) most conductive material ever invented/discovered.
Heat proof, doesn't even start to smoke under high heat.
200x stronger than steel yet 1 atom thick, stiff but also flexible. (dependant upon how its manipulated with electronic current) yet its the stiffest known material even stiffer than the make up of a diamond.
It can even absorb light! or reflect it again dependant on how its manipulated, This technology is defiantly going to change the world. the 2 men from manchester uni, have recieved noble peace prize in 2010.
Can it, will it change F1? I think so, carbon fibre seems primitive compared.
I'l start with a couple idea's.
Safety cells-would be light and very, very strong.
Ecu programmable flexi bodywork. (far fetched you think? so did i until i researched the material). please don't mock until you read a little about it.
Even the mclaren exhaust problem would have been minor with this material!
costs are quite high now, but science says you will be able to buy a pound for roughly £4 in a couple of years, its cheap to make, but hard to make large volumes.
This is nano-technology.
Just thought i'd share this with you all as i found it fascinating.

[Concorde]

If you want to know if it's allowed go FiA.com and there in the technical regulations for F1 you can find a list of permitted materials.

[34psi]

If you want to know if it's allowed go FiA.com and there in the technical regulations for F1 you can find a list of permitted materials.

Nice one, thanks. if its not there does it mean its automatically banned? as its a new tecnology/material.

[Concorde]

Nice one, thanks. if its not there does it mean its automatically banned? as its a new tecnology/material.

Yes, it's a list of are the only materials permitted to be used in the construction of an F1 car.

[Madras]

What is graphene used for at the moment?

[Zava]

Yes, it's a list of are the only materials permitted to be used in the construction of an F1 car.

it's a pity. the features of this material suited perfectly the rumours about ferrari and red bull.

[34psi]

What is graphene used for at the moment?

its been experimented with by ibm, they think they can make a terrabyte processor from it, as opposed to 3.6ghz.
military are testing its uses, ballistic windows vests ect.
medicine are exploring synthetic organs ect.
its limitless really.

[34psi]

it's a pity. the features of this material suited perfectly the rumours about ferrari and red bull.

Thats exactly how i saw it?
it seems legal for the engine-
5.14.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific engine component, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the engine:
a) Magnesium based alloys
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC's)
c) Intermetallic materials
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Beryllium, Iridium or Rhenium.
5.14.2 Coatings are free provided the total coating thickness does not exceed 25% of the section thickness of the underlying base material in all axes. In all cases the relevant coating must not exceed 0.8mm.
It passes all the above. just looking through body work regs now!

[34psi]

Thats exactly how i saw it?
it seems legal for the engine-
5.14.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific engine component, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the engine:
a) Magnesium based alloys
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC's)
c) Intermetallic materials
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Beryllium, Iridium or Rhenium.
5.14.2 Coatings are free provided the total coating thickness does not exceed 25% of the section thickness of the underlying base material in all axes. In all cases the relevant coating must not exceed 0.8mm.
It passes all the above. just looking through body work regs now!

It would take millions of layers to breach this rule. and its super strong 1 atom thick. 1 Atom???
cooling wouldn't be a prob. just coat everything with graphene. you could even get rid of the wiring loom as the full car would be conductive (or not depending on how you manipulate it.

[drunkenmaster]

Until now graphene of sufficient quality has only been produced in the form of small flakes of tiny fractions of a millimeter, using painstaking methods such as peeling layers off graphite crystals with sticky tape.

http://www.scienceda...00119111057.htm

And while graphene is in theory very strong, its primary application will be most likely in microprocessor technology. Usage as a construction material is still very far away.

Edited by drunkenmaster, 03 January 2012 - 10:32.

[Zava]

its been experimented with by ibm, they think they can make a terrabyte processor from it, as opposed to 3.6ghz.
military are testing its uses, ballistic windows vests ect.
medicine are exploring synthetic organs ect.
its limitless really.

also Arthur C. Clarke believes that this (or it's "ancestor", the bucky ball? don't remember) could be the material for a futuristic space elevator/star city seen in 3001 - the final odyssey. who knows...

[Lazy]

As far as I'm aware no practical production method exists for this material, surely to be an F1 material of the future but it's not ready yet.

[Lazy]

also Arthur C. Clarke believes that this (or it's "ancestor", the bucky ball? don't remember) could be the material for a futuristic space elevator/star city seen in 3001 - the final odyssey. who knows...

That's the nanotube variety, but they are yet to work out how to make long enough segments.

[34psi]

Permitted materials :
1) Aluminium alloys.
2) Silicon carbide particulate reinforced aluminium alloy matrix composites.
3) Steel alloys.
4) Cobalt alloys.
5) Copper alloys containing ¡Â 2.5% by weight of Beryllium.
6) Titanium alloys (but not for use in fasteners with <15mm diameter male thread).
7) Magnesium alloys.
8) Nickel based alloys containing 50% < Ni < 69%.
9) Tungsten alloy.
10) Thermoplastics : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
11) Thermosets : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
12) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor. (*)
13) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor which have :
- a tensile modulus ¡Â 550GPa ;
- a density ¡Â 1.92 g/cm ;
- unidirectional or planar reinforcement within their pre-impregnated form, not including three dimensional weaves or stitched fabrics (but three-dimensional preforms and fibre reinforcement using Z-pinning technology are permitted) ;
- no carbon nanotubes incorporated within the fibre or its matrix ;
- a permitted matrix, not including a carbon matrix.
14) Aramid fibres.
15) Poly(p-phenylene benzobisoxazole) fibres (e.g. ¡°Zylon¡±).
16) Polyethylene fibres.
17) Polypropylene fibres.
18) E and S Glass fibres.
19) Sandwich panel cores: Aluminium, Nomex, polymer foams, syntactic foams, balsa wood, carbon foam.
20) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester, phenolic, bismaleimide, polyurethane, polyester or polyimide based. (*)
21) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester or bismaleimide based.
22) Monolithic ceramics.
[Materials marked (*) are permitted only for parts classified as either front, rear or side impact structures, side intrusion panels or suspension members as regulated by Articles 15.4.3, 15.5.3, 15.4.6, 15.4.7 and 10.3 of the Technical Regulations respectively.]
Exceptions :
1) All electrical components (e.g. control boxes, wiring looms, sensors).
2) All seals & rubbers (e.g. rubber boots, o-rings, gaskets, any fluid seals, bump rubbers).
3) Fluids (e.g. water, oils).
4) Tyres.
5) Coatings and platings (e.g. DLC, nitriding, chroming).
6) Paint.
7) Adhesives.
8) Thermal insulation (e.g. felts, gold tape, heat shields).
9) All currently regulated materials (e.g. fuel bladder, headrest, extinguishant, padding, skid block).
10) Brake and clutch friction materials.
11) All parts of engines homologated according to Appendix 4 of the Sporting Regulations.
15.1.2 No parts of the car may be made from metallic materials which have a specific modulus of elasticity greater than 40 GPa / (g/cm3). Tests to establish conformity will be carried out in accordance with FIA Test Procedure 03/02, a copy of which may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
As far as i can see it is an advancement of silicon carbide, so legal in this respect.
Carbon nano tubes are banned, http://www.scientifi...nanotube-here-c But according to this and other articles its not a nano tube but the next level.
I'm starting to thing some teams are experimenting with this stuff already. if i stumble over it and see its uses, i'm sure someone with degree's and basically miles more intelligent than myself, would have a go at this.
may all be me looking for it where its not, but i like these things they are really interesting.
how the hell did massa's wing stay rigid then wave like a ribbon in the wind? i'v never had a material do that?

[34psi]

As far as I'm aware no practical production method exists for this material, surely to be an F1 material of the future but it's not ready yet.

It does, involves gold and silver and other valuable metals. its the quantity thats the problem. they hope to be able to create 1 ton per year next year. but after some in depth research, it can have effect on most material with just 2% graphene 98% plastic/other material.
i'm only scratching the surface myself at the minute.
Infact...... is this why gold/silver copper is being so sought after by china ect. this stuff in raw form is graphite, mainly mined from china, chile and canada!

Edited by 34psi, 03 January 2012 - 10:54.

[Zava]

That's the nanotube variety, but they are yet to work out how to make long enough segments.

of course it is, silly me, the book is from the 90's. thanks for the correction.

[34psi]

also Arthur C. Clarke believes that this (or it's "ancestor", the bucky ball? don't remember) could be the material for a futuristic space elevator/star city seen in 3001 - the final odyssey. who knows...

Thats similiar stuff mate, but was invented or known about in theory in 1947, but considered impossible to replicate in science.
until 2005, then 2010 it was proved by the 2 men at manchester by producing it. further more these men have left it un patented, so it devolops by many researchers for the good of mankind.

[Rob]

I'd love to know whether the piezoelectric material that was being tested ever made it anywhere.

[34psi]

this is made up from properties of graphine, i forget how because read that many sources last night. basically implemented it with aerogel. See how heat resistant it is? the mclaren exhaust would have been breeze to fix in winter testing!

[34psi]

I'd love to know whether the piezoelectric material that was being tested ever made it anywhere.

This has pretty much replaced it, if you like its probably a direct result of experimenting with piezoelectric.

[MadYarpen]

maybe graphene is coming faster than we think?

[revlec]

this is made up from properties of graphine, i forget how because read that many sources last night. basically implemented it with aerogel. See how heat resistant it is? the mclaren exhaust would have been breeze to fix in winter testing!

Listen around 1:18. The guy says "it is very brittle".
Don't forget or underestimate the amount of vibrations present through the exhaust itself and on the bodywork.
Circuits are full of Kerbs too.

My understanding is that it's an extremely anisotropic material.

Edited by revlec, 03 January 2012 - 11:56.

[34psi]

Listen your own video around 1:18. The guys says "it is very brittle".
Don't forget or underestimate the amount of vibrations present through the exhaust itself and on the bodywork.
Circuits are full of Kerbs too.

I heard that too, you may be right. But it is brittle if snapped, but if it were applied as a coating it may work, i dunno.
just putting it out there for some discussion, its only got graphene in it. Not fully graphene. i used the clip to demonstrate graphenes heat resistant qualitys mate.

[34psi]

maybe graphene is coming faster than we think?

Yes its definately imminent mate. thanks for that clip i havent seen it.. it clearly shows graphene in its basic state. If he can make that one as big as 70mm square? i'm sure there is scope for a wing or something else.

[revlec]

I heard that too, you may be right. But it is brittle if snapped, but if it were applied as a coating it may work, i dunno.
just putting it out there for some discussion, its only got graphene in it. Not fully graphene. i used the clip to demonstrate graphenes heat resistant qualitys mate.

mmmm.. i think it could be used too.It sure is brittle if we consider only the material. But if applied on some sort of other material it could work. But can we exclude Massa-Hamilton kind of contacts? because a little crack and you have to retire.

[34psi]

mmmm.. i think it could be used too.It sure is brittle if we consider only the material. But if applied on some sort of other material it could work. But can we exclude Massa-Hamilton kind of contacts? because a little crack and you have to retire.

Agreed mate, very interesting material though. with any luck we'll see it soon in f1 if not already.

[F1ultimate]

Sounds like unobtainium to me.

[34psi]

Sounds like unobtainium to me.

In the sense it will never happen, or the rare material mined in china?

[Seanspeed]

Listen around 1:18. The guy says "it is very brittle".
Don't forget or underestimate the amount of vibrations present through the exhaust itself and on the bodywork.
Circuits are full of Kerbs too.

My understanding is that it's an extremely anisotropic material.

Carbon fiber is brittle, too.

[34psi]

Carbon fiber is brittle, too.

Good point, very strong structure, but very brittle.

[maverick69]

Carbon fibre isn't really brittle - it's the polymer that is, in most applications, quite brittle. You can however introduce ductility, or better resistance to compressive stress to the composite by using a different polymer.

[Concorde]

Sounds like unobtainium to me.

The material has to be available on a nonexclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors.
Not so sure that's the case with Graphene.

[34psi]

The material has to be available on a nonexclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors.
Not so sure that's the case with Graphene.

https://graphene-sup...yer-flakes.html its not to expensive in raw form, its not exclusive to any 1 team.
The raw material is here, just need to make it into a wing! imagine a carbon fibre wing with 2% graphene, it would have similiar properties.
mclaren already make the 12c faster than anyone can create a carbon car.. in a "secret" method.
Maybe its possible maybe its fiction right now. who knows!

[DrProzac]

200x stronger than steel yet 1 atom thick, stiff but also flexible. (dependant upon how its manipulated with electronic current) yet its the stiffest known material even stiffer than the make up of a diamond.

It would take millions of layers to breach this rule. and its super strong 1 atom thick. 1 Atom???

You do realize that a one atom thick layer may have 200 times better breaking strength than steel, but we're talking about also a one atom thick (if that's possible..) layer of it? This doesn't make such a layer of graphene very strong (absolute, not relative!) - I bet a 200 atom thick layer of steel isn't all that strong.

It looks like we're far from using it on big scale. And FIA would ban it anyway (it's probably already banned by default, as someone said)

[zepunishment]

It would be ashame if it was banned, it would be interesting to see what teams could come up with, and I'm sure it would accelerate it's introduction in other uses as well.

[eoin]

And while graphene is in theory very strong, its primary application will be most likely in microprocessor technology. Usage as a construction material is still very far away.

As is it's use in microprocessors. Graphene is a super conductor so it will need to be altered to be a semi-conductor before it is of any use.

[Yoschl]

You do realize that a one atom thick layer may have 200 times better breaking strength than steel, but we're talking about also a one atom thick (if that's possible..) layer of it? This doesn't make such a layer of graphene very strong (absolute, not relative!) - I bet a 200 atom thick layer of steel isn't all that strong.

According to the information on the nobel prize homepage you're right: One graphene layer has a (2D) breaking force of around 40 N/m, while a theoretical sheet of steel with a thickness of around 3 Angstrom breaks at 0,4 N/m. But if you take a 1 mm strong steel sheet it's already 1,000,000 times stronger than graphene. So graphene allows for nanoelectronics that do not break that easily, but for macroscopical purposes I don't think it's applicable because according to these figures 1 m² of graphene would break when being loaded with a mass of 4 kg (gravity acting as the force).

@ eoin: Graphene per se is not superconducting, only when it is doped. This can be done by metal atoms onto it. Also the electrical properties can be altered with aromatic systems as adsorbates.

[Bloggsworth]

Thats similiar stuff mate, but was invented or known about in theory in 1947, but considered impossible to replicate in science.
until 2005, then 2010 it was proved by the 2 men at manchester by producing it. further more these men have left it un patented, so it devolops by many researchers for the good of mankind.

America will allow it to be patented somehow - They claim to be able to patent naturally occuring genetic sequences...

[SimMaker]

Sounds like unobtainium to me.

Yeah, I want to know, if you crumple a bit up in your hand. Does it unfold "perfect" again.

[34psi]

Yeah, I want to know, if you crumple a bit up in your hand. Does it unfold "perfect" again.

Hmmm intresting point, i don't know to be honest!
Just a quick thanks to everyone for keeping the thead a discussion! i feared i made be made fun of.

[Zava]

just read from Marc Priestley about graphene, good read:
http://f1elvis.com/2...graphene-in-f1/

[Lazy]

just read from Marc Priestley about graphene, good read:
http://f1elvis.com/2...graphene-in-f1/

Awesome.

[ForeverF1]

Interesting, but for an ex-f1 guy I'm embarrassed for him that he wrote the bit a out the elephant without thinking about it. Is a ludicrous claim and simply not true. This can be quite easily checked by looking at graphene's mechanical properties.

Did your Elephant fall off the pencil?

[Cool Beans]

Did your Elephant fall off the pencil?

The tricky bit is to get the elephant to stand on a pencil in the first place. After that you have to surgically remove the pencil embedded in his foot.

[MirNyet]

The tricky bit is to get the elephant to stand on a pencil in the first place. After that you have to surgically remove the pencil embedded in his foot.

Easy, bring out the mouse and the 8ft thick pencil

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

The bothersome bit is "Chinese patents".

Graphene is world-life changing technology, it has so many applications it's the knock-on effects are almost like nuclear technology's impact.

The west seems to be allowing China to winnow away the technology - along with solar innovations.

A material that can be manufactured in small labs at colleges should be something F1 teams should be exploiting already. If for nothing else aside from a primitive application of heat-sinks.

Another "mystery" of the modern world (along with battery technology that seems stuck in the 80's).....