Jump to content


Photo

Denny Hulme's McLaren M23


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 BritishV8

BritishV8
  • Member

  • 160 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 05 January 2012 - 18:06

Today I've uploaded a new BritishRacecar.com article:
Denny Hulme's McLaren M23 Formula One Racecar shown in ~70 sharp close-up photos!

Here's an excerpt what Phil Kerr told me about this particular chassis:

Thank you for the draft of the article about M23-1 which Denny Hulme drove in its debut race and was unlucky not to win. I must say this was probably his favourite race car along with the remarkable McLaren M8-B Can -Am in 1969 which was unbeaten that season with Bruce and Denny driving to another championship 1/2... I am also particularly attached to 23-1 as I was responsible for managing and running the car for Denny during 1973 and also with Mike Hailwood when he also drove it in 1974 until the unfortunate accident in Germany.

(emphasis added)

If you should happen to spot any errors or omissions, please don't hesitate to let me know. I'll be happy to make necessary adjustments. Please keep in mind that I'm working for tips.

Denny Hulme's spectacular McLaren (M23/1) returned to Watkins Glen in 2011
Posted Image
(copyright 2012, Curtis Jacobson for BritishRacecar.com)

Advertisement

#2 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 05 January 2012 - 18:25

Nice web page. The only comments I'd make are small - the M19 won not one but two races in 1972 (the South African GP and the non championship Oulton Park Gold Cup), and the note regarding the photo of the chisel nose isn't quite accurate, because it reads as if the long, wide nose illustrated was used all the time after 1974. In 1975 a shortened nose was introduced and used for the balance of the car's life. These were made of kevlar for 1976 (I can't remember if the '75 short noses were kevlar too), along with a much lighter (than GRP) kevlar cockpit surround and engine cover. This was one of the lesser know innovations introduced by McLaren as the M23 was developed, along with a six speed gearbox and the air starter.

Thanks,

Nigel

#3 JtP1

JtP1
  • Member

  • 753 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 05 January 2012 - 18:55

Looking at the photos in the link, what adjusts the rear driveshaft length for suspension movement?

#4 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,680 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 05 January 2012 - 18:58

I made the seat Denny used in that car, though I actually did the seat for the M19 he raced before that, and it had already had several previous homes. I went to McLaren's Colnbrook base with David Jackson from Specialised Mouldings to sort things out, as the seat Denny had used in the M7 & M14 no longer fitted the car, mainly because it was too upright. Don't know if this is true, but one of the McLaren guys told me that he'd originally brought it with him from Brabham, so it was already several seasons old before that, and it looked it. It was a fairly basic un-padded fibreglass moulding, and as a starting point, I sawed into the seat on each side almost to the centre in a couple of places, so it could be flattened out a bit. We pop-riveted a strip of L72 aluminium each side to hold the shape, and then tried it in the car. Denny sat in it, we made some minor adjustments, and he said it was fine, his actual words of course were "She'll be right". Easiest seat fitting I ever did, Denny was 'my man' in F1 from that day onward, great to work with. No names, but you wouldn't believe how fussy some of his fellow racers could be about their in-car seating arrangements.

#5 RogerFrench

RogerFrench
  • Member

  • 688 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:12

Looking at the photos in the link, what adjusts the rear driveshaft length for suspension movement?


Are they not splined - do they slide?

#6 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:16

"Lightweight double-splined titanium halfshafts were specified along with steel universal joint yokes.
Further weight savings was achieved by eliminating any conventional sort of sliding-spline joint.
Axle plunge was managed by allowing some floating at the hub bearings, inside the upright."


#7 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:19

"No names, but you wouldn't believe how fussy some of his fellow racers could be about their in-car seating arrangements."


In my experience the faster the driver the less the hassle with seat fits...



#8 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,680 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:43

In my experience the faster the driver the less the hassle with seat fits...



Well, in my experience, not quite, the worst of all of the ones I dealt with was Jackie Stewart in his Lola T260 CanAm car. I was never really a fan before we met, but he won me over, a thoroughly nice man. Fussy with his seating arrangements though, like you wouldn't believe.

#9 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,589 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 05 January 2012 - 20:01

The first entry makes it look like Hailwood crashed in M23/1 though I realise that wasn't the intention, and as we know, it was M23/7.

As for JYS, I have worked with him a couple of times. Fussy? I suspected just the merest hint of OCD myself!

The first M23s were quite beautiful, never really liked the '74 cars, in Marlboro colours, and then the low air boxes, well, not quite how they appeared in '73. The worst example being Ickx in Germany, it being let down by the hurried signwriting (and JYS is fussy!!!) of the drivers name, but a stunning car.

#10 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 05 January 2012 - 20:22

Rob - yes, I'm sure Stewart is the exception. Certainly I've know ho-hum drivers who didn't repay the considerable time spent messing about with their seating position with improved lap times.

I know it's another world, but Paul Tracy (whose physique isn't all that different from Denny's) used an Emerson seat for his first couple of full-time years at Penske, even though Emerson is much more slight. No messing about, just got in the car and drove the nuts off it.




#11 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,966 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 05 January 2012 - 22:18

USGP 1973

Posted Image

Copyright JAG

#12 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,744 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 January 2012 - 23:35

Consider my self fortunate to have seen this car twice in the Race of Champions in '73 with Denny driving who came second, and then again in '74 with 'Mike the Bike' driving who came 4th.

Often wonder what ever happened to the '74 winkle picker noses ?

Edited by arttidesco, 05 January 2012 - 23:37.


#13 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 1,352 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:25

Well, in my experience, not quite, the worst of all of the ones I dealt with was Jackie Stewart in his Lola T260 CanAm car. I was never really a fan before we met, but he won me over, a thoroughly nice man. Fussy with his seating arrangements though, like you wouldn't believe.


He said as much in an interview once. He couldn't believe how uncomfortable modern F1 (this was in the 90s, I think) cars were, saying that in his day he was very particular about cockpit comfort, preferring everything to be "just so".

#14 barrykm

barrykm
  • Member

  • 851 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:31

I was at the 1973 ZA GP and Denny and car were really impressive. I recall that Jackie Stewart led the race initially, but cannot remember how/when Denny got ahead of him...?

#15 JtP1

JtP1
  • Member

  • 753 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:56

I was at the 1973 ZA GP and Denny and car were really impressive. I recall that Jackie Stewart led the race initially, but cannot remember how/when Denny got ahead of him...?


Can remember how JYS got in front of Denny. Yellow flag, what yellow flag?


#16 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,589 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 06 January 2012 - 13:24

Can remember how JYS got in front of Denny. Yellow flag, what yellow flag?



Was it a yellow flag, or was it a white one which then meant a emergency vehicle on track (which would have been Regga's ambulance), or is my memory fried after Christmas, in which case I'll get me coat...................

#17 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,680 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 06 January 2012 - 13:50

Can remember how JYS got in front of Denny. Yellow flag, what yellow flag?


Not quite right, Denny had to pit with a puncture from debris left by the Reggazoni's crash while leading, and he later had to pit again with a second one. Jackie Stewart had been accused of passing Peterson & Revson under a yellow to take third, but later cleared by the stewards, JYS passed Fittipaldi for second, and Scheckter for the lead fair and square on the next lap, and drove away into the distance. In an impressive comeback drive, Denny eventually finished fifth in the new M23.

Edit, just noticed I had a double Fittipaldi and no Scheckter in there, Jody was leading the race up till that point, until Jackie passed him and went on to win.

Edited by kayemod, 06 January 2012 - 17:44.


#18 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,589 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 06 January 2012 - 15:08

Not quite right, Denny had to pit with a puncture from debris left by the Reggazoni's crash while leading, and he later had to pit again with a second one. Jackie Stewart had been accused of passing Peterson & Revson under a yellow to take third, but later cleared by the stewards, JYS passed Fittipaldi for second, and Fittipaldi for the lead fair and square on the next lap, and drove away into the distance. In an impressive comeback drive, Denny eventually finished fifth in the new M23.



Yep, now I've been told, it's all coming back to me!!!

The yellows were out for the Hailwood/Regazzoni incident, (was it a white for emergency vehicle's on track?) and JYS got Jody just after they passed the ambulance, although it was Peterson and Revson he got called up for, though he wasn't cleared, he recieved a reprimand which Ken Tyrrell appealed against, which I thought was upheld? Anyway, when JYS got by Jody, he was behind Denny, who was a lap down, so it was one hell of a debut for the M23 and a great drive by Denny. Wasn't it Shadow's first Grand Prix as well?

Edited by f1steveuk, 06 January 2012 - 15:47.


#19 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,680 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 06 January 2012 - 15:53

Yep, now I've been told, it's all coming back to me!!!

The yellows were out for the Hailwood/Regazzoni incident, (was it a white for emergency vehicle's on track?) and JYS got Jody just after they passed the ambulance, although it was Peterson and Revson he got called up for, though he wasn't cleared, he recieved a reprimand which Ken Tyrrell appealed against, which I thought was upheld?


McLaren protested on behalf of Revson, and after a lengthy post-race stewards' enquiry, Stewart was reprimanded. Ken appealed, and I thought that JYS was eventually exonerated, surely someone here must have a contemporary race report? Certainly Jackie claimed that he'd completed the pass well before the yellow zone.


Advertisement

#20 BritishV8

BritishV8
  • Member

  • 160 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 06 January 2012 - 23:22

Thanks for all the constructive comments! I've made a lot of adjustments to the article, so hopefully it's up to snuff now. Let me know if anything else seems off.

Nigel mentioned that Kevlar replaced fiberglass in the M23 model's later years, and Rob mentioned calling on the McLaren works back when he worked for Specialised Mouldings... I'm curious to probe the connection a little deeper. To what extent was Specialized involved in McLaren's use of Kevlar? Was Specialized also involved in McLaren's innovative use of sandwich construction on the M23?

I had written "Axle plunge was managed by allowing some floating at the hub bearings, inside the upright..." based on the description Doug Nye gave in History of the Grand Prix Car - but honestly, I studied that section carefully and I still think it's about as clear as mud. Can someone provide a sketch or a scan of the engineering drawing? I'd love to include that in my article because as you guys know managing axle plunge was a big technical challenge in the era. Coincidentally, Doug Nye selected one of my photos of a McLaren M8F's spline-jointed halfshaft to illustrate his column last year. I'll require advance payment next time because MotorSport gave me the "halfshaft" - so to speak!

So... which F1 cars were first to use CV joints?

Regazzoni wrote: "Now if a similar article on the Arrows FA1 - the very first, not the A1 - could appear, a generous donation would be in order" ---- Arrows FA1, eh? Good to know. However, I only start writing about a car after I find and photograph it in a racing paddock. Incidentally, about a thousand people have read the M23 article - the average time they've spent on the page is over six minutes - yet not one of those readers has tipped yet. Not one lousy penny. Some real nice comments on message boards, mind you. There are two particular second-hand books I want to buy/read before I write my Tyrrell article, but at this point I can't justify the price of either of them. Should I even keep paying my hosting company's bills? I'd cry in my beer, if I could afford a beer. It's discouraging.

Steve wrote: "The first entry makes it look like Hailwood crashed in M23/1 though I realise that wasn't the intention, and as we know, it was M23/7." ---- Actually, Hailwood managed to crash BOTH 23/1 and 23/7 in the same weekend. 23/1 was crashed in practice. The team decided it was infeasible to rebuild 23/1 to a standard suitable for Formula One racing. Instead, it was rebuilt for Denny to take home to New Zealand and use for occasional "demonstrations".


#21 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 9,667 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 07 January 2012 - 00:09

[quote name='f1steveuk' post='5470875' date='Jan 7 2012, 00:08']!

Wasn't it Shadow's first Grand Prix as well?........Sure was.

Edited by eldougo, 07 January 2012 - 00:10.


#22 Dave Ware

Dave Ware
  • Member

  • 998 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:13

It was also George Follmer's first Grand Prix. He finished sixth, just him and his Shadow.

Regarding drivers and their seats, aren't they supposed to be comfortable in order to drive fast?

#23 Cargo

Cargo
  • Member

  • 245 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 07 January 2012 - 04:59

Today I've uploaded a new BritishRacecar.com article:
Denny Hulme's McLaren M23 Formula One Racecar shown in ~70 sharp close-up photos!


thanks for the link - the photos are brilliant :) :clap:

#24 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,589 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 07 January 2012 - 09:16

McLaren protested on behalf of Revson, and after a lengthy post-race stewards' enquiry, Stewart was reprimanded. Ken appealed, and I thought that JYS was eventually exonerated, surely someone here must have a contemporary race report? Certainly Jackie claimed that he'd completed the pass well before the yellow zone.



I've just checked in the Rothman's review of the '73 season and it says that Stewart was officially reprimanded, Ken appealed, but the reprimand was upheld.



#25 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,680 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 07 January 2012 - 15:34

Nigel mentioned that Kevlar replaced fiberglass in the M23 model's later years, and Rob mentioned calling on the McLaren works back when he worked for Specialised Mouldings... I'm curious to probe the connection a little deeper. To what extent was Specialized involved in McLaren's use of Kevlar? Was Specialized also involved in McLaren's innovative use of sandwich construction on the M23?


SpecialiSed Mouldings was split into three main sections, the pattern shop where all the new prototype work was created, and where things could be quite secretive, the mould area where most of the cleverer stuff including any work for F1 customers would have been done, and the production shop which did all the run of the mill output. I spent most of my time in the first of these, and didn't have much to do with the moulding side, though it wasn't a large company, and we all knew about most of what went on, the first two departments worked together quite closely. Kevlar was just becoming economic towards the end of my time there, and I'd guess that its use had been suggested to McLaren by SM as a worthwhile though expensive improvement on what they'd used before. McLaren always wanted the best, and weren't as cost-conscious (or tight fisted) as most other customers, if something could be improved, they'd usually go for it, whatever the expense, though they were anything but profligate. Used properly Kevlar should result in stronger mouldings with a useful weight saving over what I suppose we have to refer to as 'traditional' or 'conventional' fibreglass, but it's awful stuff to work with, or at least it was back then. I suspect that at least initially, SM would have used it as a straight substitute for glass materials using the same polyester resins, though you'd achieve far better results using epoxy resin, which is how it's almost always used today. Apart from being more expensive and needing specially trained operators, the use of epoxy demands proper curing ovens, which SM probably acquired eventually, but hadn't even been considered during my time there, which included most of the M23 period. On the sandwich construction question, as far as I know this was all done using injected two component polyurethane foam. This would have been carried out by McLaren at their factory, and although they may have asked SM for advice on its use, I doubt if there would have been any other involvement between the two companies. Our most frequent contact was with Nigel's dad Don Beresford, and since he'd have seen to carrying out the sandwich sidepod construction of the M23 monocoques, I'm sure that there would have been friendly discussions, though probably nothing more than that. McLaren's place in David Road was always 'eat off the floor clean' each time I was there, so I'm not sure if any messing about with unpleasant materials like this would have been done in any of the usual assembly areas, probably Nigel can tell us more.

Edited by kayemod, 07 January 2012 - 15:36.


#26 alansart

alansart
  • Member

  • 4,420 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 07 January 2012 - 16:06

On the sandwich construction question, as far as I know this was all done using injected two component polyurethane foam. This would have been carried out by McLaren at their factory, and although they may have asked SM for advice on its use, I doubt if there would have been any other involvement between the two companies.


This would be around the time that the FIA introduced deformable structures to the side pods of F1 cars (I did a little project on it at College at the time). The use of injected polyurethane foam seemed to be the favourite solution to the new rules.


#27 Simon Hadfield

Simon Hadfield
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: October 06

Posted 07 January 2012 - 18:53

The axle plunge is a feature carried over from Jo Marquart's time there and is best understood if you think the driveshaft is a fixed length component from the gearbox output flange to the wheel nut and the upright slides (via roller bearings in the upright running directly on the hardened steel hub) over the outer hub. This was initially carried over from the M19 and Jo went on to use the same system on the Huron and early GRDs. The big advantage is the simpler and stronger driveshaft, the slight flaw is the track change on bump and rebound.

#28 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 07 January 2012 - 20:39

...... Apart from being more expensive and needing specially trained operators, the use of epoxy demands proper curing ovens, which SM probably acquired eventually, but hadn't even been considered during my time there, which included most of the M23 period. On the sandwich construction question, as far as I know this was all done using injected two component polyurethane foam. This would have been carried out by McLaren at their factory, and although they may have asked SM for advice on its use, I doubt if there would have been any other involvement between the two companies. Our most frequent contact was with Nigel's dad Don Beresford, and since he'd have seen to carrying out the sandwich sidepod construction of the M23 monocoques, I'm sure that there would have been friendly discussions, though probably nothing more than that. McLaren's place in David Road was always 'eat off the floor clean' each time I was there, so I'm not sure if any messing about with unpleasant materials like this would have been done in any of the usual assembly areas, probably Nigel can tell us more.


Although McLaren worked very closely with SM (I remember, as a kid, waiting in the car outside the factory in Huntingdon on many occasions while my father visited Peter & David Jackson to discuss various projects), as Rob suggests the polyurethane foam "deformable structure" was a McLaren inspired feature - I don't think Specialised had anything to do with it. The process used is well described on the website, though contrary to what Rob suggests in his posting I seem to remember it being done in the car preparation bays on at least one occasion, rather than in the fab shop, because it wasn't really a "dirty" process. As described, Don used a special pressurised "aerosol" to mix and inject the foam (through small slots in the radiator mounting pockets), with care being taken to provide bleed paths for the excess material. The M23 probably represented the neatest integration of the "deformable structure" mandated for 1973 (although, to be fair, I'm not familiar with Tony Southgate's Shadow DN3's construction). Other 1973 cars like the Tyrrell 005, Lotus 72 and BRM P160 kind of had it "tacked on" to existing designs.

As Rob suggests, my dad and his colleagues at McLaren were always very ready to adopt new construction technologies. In 1976 they were already working with honeycomb composite construction, using glass skins for components such as the M26 cockpit side panels and M23 rear wing end plates, and of course the M26 also used a metallic hex sandwich construction too. These were cured under a vacuum (no autoclaves at that time) in a big industrial gas oven placed right in the heart of the works at 17 David Road.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 07 January 2012 - 20:45.


#29 Nigel Beresford

Nigel Beresford
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 07 January 2012 - 21:19

Regarding drivers and their seats, aren't they supposed to be comfortable in order to drive fast?


Absolutely, and teams will always do whatever it takes. The trouble is that often the guys who suck up most of this time and effort are usually slower than their team mates, who are typically much easier to please.

#30 watkins

watkins
  • Member

  • 145 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 07 January 2012 - 23:18

Posted Image
Watkins Glen, Sept. 2011 - exiting the toe of the Boot



#31 smeetsie

smeetsie
  • Member

  • 74 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:12


Australian F5000 champion John McCormack modified an M23 with a 5 Litre Leyland all alloy V8. Very fast and successfull racer downunder.

I believe car has returned to its original F1 guise now.

Peter Smeets
Adelaide SA

#32 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,744 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:18

Australian F5000 champion John McCormack modified an M23 with a 5 Litre Leyland all alloy V8. Very fast and successfull racer downunder.

I believe car has returned to its original F1 guise now.

Peter Smeets
Adelaide SA


Quite a lot of detail on Johns McLaren M23/2 Leyland on this link.

#33 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 82,257 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:31

I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been explained...

The 'axle plunge' question: Obviously, as the upright moves up and down in relation to the chassis, in cornering and over bumps, the length of the axle must vary. Usually this is done by having a sliding spline in the shaft, with rollers in it if you're serious and have a lot of horsepower and enough money.

In earlier times the 'plunge' absorption of the rubber doughnut was used, but that was old hat by the time of the M23. Sliding yokes into the final drive was also a prospect, but I don't know if it was ever used by anyone.

So what McLaren did here was have the outer quarter-shaft, that is the final section of the driveshaft that actually attaches to the wheel, set up so it could move in and out within the bearing carrier of the upright.

And McCormack's car was Revson's originally.

#34 Jagracer

Jagracer
  • Member

  • 50 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 19 February 2012 - 18:10

SpecialiSed Mouldings was split into three main sections, the pattern shop where all the new prototype work was created, and where things could be quite secretive, the mould area where most of the cleverer stuff including any work for F1 customers would have been done, and the production shop which did all the run of the mill output. I spent most of my time in the first of these, and didn't have much to do with the moulding side, though it wasn't a large company, and we all knew about most of what went on, the first two departments worked together quite closely. Kevlar was just becoming economic towards the end of my time there, and I'd guess that its use had been suggested to McLaren by SM as a worthwhile though expensive improvement on what they'd used before. McLaren always wanted the best, and weren't as cost-conscious (or tight fisted) as most other customers, if something could be improved, they'd usually go for it, whatever the expense, though they were anything but profligate. Used properly Kevlar should result in stronger mouldings with a useful weight saving over what I suppose we have to refer to as 'traditional' or 'conventional' fibreglass, but it's awful stuff to work with, or at least it was back then. I suspect that at least initially, SM would have used it as a straight substitute for glass materials using the same polyester resins, though you'd achieve far better results using epoxy resin, which is how it's almost always used today. Apart from being more expensive and needing specially trained operators, the use of epoxy demands proper curing ovens, which SM probably acquired eventually, but hadn't even been considered during my time there, which included most of the M23 period. On the sandwich construction question, as far as I know this was all done using injected two component polyurethane foam. This would have been carried out by McLaren at their factory, and although they may have asked SM for advice on its use, I doubt if there would have been any other involvement between the two companies. Our most frequent contact was with Nigel's dad Don Beresford, and since he'd have seen to carrying out the sandwich sidepod construction of the M23 monocoques, I'm sure that there would have been friendly discussions, though probably nothing more than that. McLaren's place in David Road was always 'eat off the floor clean' each time I was there, so I'm not sure if any messing about with unpleasant materials like this would have been done in any of the usual assembly areas, probably Nigel can tell us more.

Tony Kitchiner had a lot to do with working with the Kevlar system & took it McLaren as we used it in the side pods of the M19's that we modified for the F5000. Tony purchased the 2 last M19's & we fitted side pods on them to take the fuel tanks as we did away with the one that was directly behind the driver in F1 guise. Tony had been experimenting for a few years with Kevlar & always said that one day cars will be built using it. Regards Phil Bradford