39 replies to this topic

[Nottub]

I was searching for some NSX news on nsxprime and I came across this old thread where the original poster shares a translated article (about future NSX) from a japanese magazine with interview with Shigehara Uehara (the project leader of previous NSX & S2000) and there was this little bit of info that is not related to the NSX but attracted my attention, where Mr. Uehera jokingly says:

“Ferrari lured most of our F1 Engineers to design engines for their F1 and road cars - After our (Honda) withdraw from F1 in 1992. Mr. Goto (Head of Honda V10 and V12 F1 Engine Program between 1988 to 1992) used to often call me from the Ferrari factory (where he was working) and telling me they really should slap a big H on the Ferrari's Engine Block and Ferrari F1 cars were powered by Honda.”

Ouch! Now this is something I had no idea about and I'm a Honda supporter. My question is, was this ever mentioned in the (motorsport) media? Why do we always hear stories about F1 people moving to this or that team, Sam Michael to Mclaren; Zander to Honda; Willis to Red Bull; Byrne to Ferrari etc, but we don't hear that FERRARI hired Honda's team of engineers in 93 to design their F1 and road car engines? Did anyone knew about this? What happened to this group of engineers? I wonder if they still work for Ferrari or moved back to Honda Japan... or even to another manufacturer or team...

Edited by Nottub, 13 January 2012 - 01:51.

[Anomnader]

I'm not sure stole is the right word, hired or head hunted might be better, but theres always movement amongst engineers, talented engineers are always in demand, whilst BMW engineers might have stayed in the M dept I think a lot of toyota engineers moved into other teams.

Edited by Anomnader, 12 January 2012 - 01:08.

[CF22]

Ferrari, once again kidnapping the rich and stealing from the poor, oh, they're so bad.

[Risil]

Why do we always hear stories about F1 people moving to this or that team, Sam Michael to Mclaren; Zander to Honda; Willis to Red Bull; Byrne to Ferrari etc, but we don't hear that FERRARI "stole" Honda's team of engineers in 93 to design their F1 and road car engines?

Because it happened 18 years ago, perhaps?

[WhiteBlue]

This is a very well known story. F1 technology was always spread by pinching engineers from suppliers and competitors. It is part of F1's DNA.

[IceSkyrim]

Paolo Martinelli, responsible for the engines in the Dream Team era, returned to Ferrari at the end last year after leaving the team to Toyota F1.

[fabr68]

After Honda decides to withdraw of F1 in 1992, evil Ferrari gives jobs to some of Honda ex-F1 engineers....

Seriously, some people here act like Ferrari is the one and only team that hires engineers from other F1 teams. And like it is a wrong thing to do.

Edited by fabr68, 12 January 2012 - 02:56.

[Zippel]

I thought it was logical of Ferrari to hire Honda engineer's as they were able to successfully win a title with a V12.

[Desdirodeabike]

Perhaps what the OP is trying to convey is that hiring Japanese Honda engineers to make engines for an iconic Italian car maker like Ferrari doesn't really fit with their often touted latin heritage and passione.

[cheapracer]

with their often touted latin heritage and passione.

Ducati would be nowhere today if not for Japanese electrics and Mikuni carbs.

Drive most Italian cars then drive most Japanese cars, there's a difference.

Japanese engineering is the best in the world for reliability etc. but a certain amount of passion is lacking, something they have never been able to grasp.

[Kompressor]

That's old news to me. Honda kept playing silly games. They kept cycling different people through to get the 'F1' experience instead of developing a strong and experienced core. They were easy targets for poaching.

[cheapracer]

That's old news to me. Honda kept playing silly games. They kept cycling different people through to get the 'F1' experience instead of developing a strong and experienced core. They were easy targets for poaching.

It's not that simple in Asian culture, you will find the bulk of engineers are the same ones that were always there.

[Stormsky68]

Ducati would be nowhere today if not for Japanese electrics and Mikuni carbs.

Drive most Italian cars then drive most Japanese cars, there's a difference.

Japanese engineering is the best in the world for reliability etc. but a certain amount of passion is lacking, something they have never been able to grasp.

LOL yeah the Italian car will leave you stranded on the M11 at midnight with blinking lights

I've driven several Ferrari's over the years and the quality, tactile surfaces, fit and finish are appalling

Edited by Stormsky68, 12 January 2012 - 08:51.

[multivac]

As far as i remember Gerhard Berger persuaded Ferrari to hire Goto and abandon V12 in favour of V10.

[Nottub]

I'm not sure stole is the right word, hired or head hunted might be better

You're right, "stole" is not the most appropriate word, I'll edit it.

but theres always movement amongst engineers, talented engineers are always in demand, whilst BMW engineers might have stayed in the M dept I think a lot of toyota engineers moved into other teams.

I know it's common practice for F1 teams by snatching key personnel (engineers etc dedicated to F1 [and motorsports] only) from competitors but this is different, and surprised me. We're talking about Ferrari - of all car makers - poaching a team of engineers from Honda Motor Co. (not people from the F1 circle) - a Japanese car maker - to design engines for their F1 AND road cars. Who would have thought? So the legendary Italian marque which, among other things is famous for it's engines - "the soul of a Ferrari" - turns out the "soul" is actually more Japanese Honda than Italian Ferrari? Love it.

Toyota engineers? Did Toyota brought own engineers to their F1 programe?

Because it happened 18 years ago, perhaps?

So did other things like Brawn to Ferrari, Newey to Macca etc, yet it does not stop people from talking about it frequently. So I wondered if this was never reported in the media.

Perhaps what the OP is trying to convey is that hiring Japanese Honda engineers to make engines for an iconic Italian car maker like Ferrari doesn't really fit with their often touted latin heritage and passione.

Yup. That was (part of) my point. But as usual people completely misunderstand.

[Nottub]

Osamo Goto later moved on to Sauber --> Petronas, and IIRC he designed a Moto GP engine for Petronas

Osamo Goto

So we know this one didn't return to Honda. He designed a motogp engine for Petronas, a oil company? I'm confused.

After Honda decides to withdraw of F1 in 1992, evil Ferrari gives jobs to some of Honda ex-F1 engineers....

Honda "ex" F1 engineers? what "ex"? These are the same Honda people who whould return to Honda R&D in Japan to design the engine or trasmission for your civic. Just as the 300 (or more) engineers also returned to Honda R&D in Japan when Honda withdrew from F1 in 2008. "Some"? You mean "most".

Seriously, some people here act like Ferrari is the one and only team that hires engineers from other F1 teams. And like it is a wrong thing to do.

I'm not one of them. Ferrari is not the only one, they all play the same game.
Oh there's nothing wrong with that. I just found this funny and ironic that Ferrari needed Honda's affable and ingenuous engineers to design their engines. The same Honda that many people including Ferrari fans frequently ridicule.

[lbennie]

not sure what is confusing about it - really. Is like you are saying "Wow - Adrian Newey went to Red Bull, a Drink company to design an F1 car?"

Nothing like it. Red Bull is a constructor. Petronas has never constructed motogp bikes, just sponsored them.

[Nottub]

not sure what is confusing about it - really. Is like you are saying "Wow - Adrian Newey went to Red Bull, a Drink company to design an F1 car?"

as for the topic about the moto gp/superbike engine

Ah, Petronas partly owned the Sauber factory. Didn't know they entered a bike in SBK. Thanks for the info

[Bunchies]

Japanese engineering is the best in the world for reliability etc. but a certain amount of passion is lacking, something they have never been able to grasp.

You should drive a rotary powered car before making such a broad claim like that.

[Nottub]

Yeah, not sure what he meant by lacking passion, maybe he could elaborate. Could he be referring to aesthetics?

[Group B]

Yeah, not sure what he meant by lacking passion,...

I sometime think passion, in motoring circles, is another word for unreliability.

[TeamSideways]

NO **** , ferrari hired "ENGINEERS" to design an engine , what a punch of morons. sorry couldn't help it

[Talisman]

Ouch! Now this is something I had no idea about and I'm a Honda supporter. My question is, was this ever mentioned in the (motorsport) media? Why do we always hear stories about F1 people moving to this or that team, Sam Michael to Mclaren; Zander to Honda; Willis to Red Bull; Byrne to Ferrari etc, but we don't hear that FERRARI hired Honda's team of engineers in 93 to design their F1 and road car engines? Did anyone knew about this? What happened to this group of engineers? I wonder if they still work for Ferrari or moved back to Honda Japan... or even to another manufacturer or team...

TBH I don't think many Honda engineers moved to Ferrari. Honda's mid and low level engineers working on the project wouldn't have left Japan and would have had a glittering career in front of them at Honda, after all thats why they were picked for the F1 project in the first place, because they were the best. Osamu Goto though wanted to carry on with F1 after Honda left, he did so by transferring himself to McLaren first when Honda were still in F1, then taking a job at Ferrari only after Honda left. If you've seen the Fuji TV coverage of Senna's death, the Japanese TV reporters interview Goto wearing a Ferrari uniform about the effect the accident would have on F1, its somewhere on youtube.

I think the NSX was far more influential on Ferrari roadcars than any individual engineers though, this was a superbly engineered supercar that was easy to drive and reliable as well. Like the 911 to some extent it showed that supercars didn't have to be temperamental, unreliable and difficult to drive and Ferrari had to raise its standards in response.

[fabr68]

TBH I don't think many Honda engineers moved to Ferrari. Honda's mid and low level engineers working on the project wouldn't have left Japan and would have had a glittering career in front of them at Honda, after all thats why they were picked for the F1 project in the first place, because they were the best. Osamu Goto though wanted to carry on with F1 after Honda left, he did so by transferring himself to McLaren first when Honda were still in F1, then taking a job at Ferrari only after Honda left. If you've seen the Fuji TV coverage of Senna's death, the Japanese TV reporters interview Goto wearing a Ferrari uniform about the effect the accident would have on F1, its somewhere on youtube.

I think the NSX was far more influential on Ferrari roadcars than any individual engineers though, this was a superbly engineered supercar that was easy to drive and reliable as well. Like the 911 to some extent it showed that supercars didn't have to be temperamental, unreliable and difficult to drive and Ferrari had to raise its standards in response.

The NSX was a copycat of the Ferrari 308 produced 10 years before. A low cost sportscar model Ferrari never produced again. Honda may have had better reliability but the NSX was pure flattery Honda gave Ferrari.

[DanardiF1]

The NSX was a copycat of the Ferrari 308 produced 10 years before. A low cost sportscar model Ferrari never produced again. Honda may have had better reliability but the NSX was pure flattery Honda gave Ferrari.

I would hardly call it a copycat. The NSX would certainly have been influenced itself by cars like the 308, but otherwise it was taking the MR sportscar to new territory. The NSX was a landmark car, and was a big influence on Ferrari itself, as well as other people like Gordon Murray, who sought to reach the level he thought the NSX had achieved in his own McLaren F1. Porsche tried to make their own version in the Boxter (though you could say that was also influenced by the Mazda MX-5). Toyota restyled their MR2 into a melange of Ferrari and NSX styles, though not many could match the Honda for it's handling.

You could say it was hamstrung by it's relative lack of power, but the VTEC engine sings and makes that car go like no other. Ferrari again knew this, which is why they would've headhunted Honda's best guys for their own engines, both in the Scuderia and in the roadcar division.

[Talisman]

I would hardly call it a copycat. The NSX would certainly have been influenced itself by cars like the 308, but otherwise it was taking the MR sportscar to new territory. The NSX was a landmark car, and was a big influence on Ferrari itself, as well as other people like Gordon Murray, who sought to reach the level he thought the NSX had achieved in his own McLaren F1. Porsche tried to make their own version in the Boxter (though you could say that was also influenced by the Mazda MX-5). Toyota restyled their MR2 into a melange of Ferrari and NSX styles, though not many could match the Honda for it's handling.

You could say it was hamstrung by it's relative lack of power, but the VTEC engine sings and makes that car go like no other. Ferrari again knew this, which is why they would've headhunted Honda's best guys for their own engines, both in the Scuderia and in the roadcar division.

Precisely. The NSX brought in significant new technologies like aluminium chassis and variable valve timing as well as its ease of use. Ferraris at the time had the brand cachet but as cars to live with and drive could be awful as John Barnard got in trouble for saying when asked to comment about his company car.

To say the NSX was a copy of the 308 is as accurate as saying that any midengined Ferrari is merely a rip off of the car that started it all, the Lamborghini Miura.

[CSquared]

You should drive a rotary powered car before making such a broad claim like that.

The claim about reliability or about lack of passion?

Porsche tried to make their own version in the Boxter (though you could say that was also influenced by the Mazda MX-5).

The Miata influenced the Boxster? What?

[DanardiF1]

The claim about reliability or about lack of passion?


The Miata influenced the Boxster? What?

In that it was a small, handling-focussed convertible. The Boxster has never been about raw power, but about neat and nimble handling and the joy of the small sportscar... isn't that what the Miata/MX-5 helped reinvigorate in the car world?

Edited by DanardiF1, 14 January 2012 - 22:36.

[BiH]

nothing new to see there


just like how ferrari bought bunch of Audi R8's to reverse engineer and improve Ferrari fuel injection system that is now available


or Porsche developing panamera on e60 m5 body

Edited by BiH, 14 January 2012 - 23:04.

[CSquared]

In that it was a small, handling-focussed convertible. The Boxster has never been about raw power, but about neat and nimble handling and the joy of the small sportscar... isn't that what the Miata/MX-5 helped reinvigorate in the car world?

Seems like a stretch to me. If you've got sources for that from inside Porsche that'd be interesting, though.

[Talisman]

Seems like a stretch to me. If you've got sources for that from inside Porsche that'd be interesting, though.

I don't think the MX5 'influenced' the Boxter but the entire two seater sportscar segment was kickstarted by the little Mazda. There hadn't been a decent affordable roadster around since the early '80s.

IIRC Peter Wheeler of TVR was asked what he thought of the MX5, he couldn't praise it enough for bringing new customers into the segment who might think of trading up to a Porsche or TVR in the future.

[PhilG]

That's old news to me. Honda kept playing silly games. They kept cycling different people through to get the 'F1' experience instead of developing a strong and experienced core. They were easy targets for poaching.

this is the japanese way.. Mitsubishi did the same with the Rally stuff

[Sakae]

In that it was a small, handling-focussed convertible. The Boxster has never been about raw power, but about neat and nimble handling and the joy of the small sportscar... isn't that what the Miata/MX-5 helped reinvigorate in the car world?

My female friend knows nothing about nimble stuff - she liked the look of it, and that was all. If I want nimble, I get BMW. Japanese car would be not on the top of my list, if "nimble" was the only criterium.

Back to Ferrari - Enzo, the guy knew how to build the engines, no doubt about it, and without Honda's know-how. These days engineers do change jobs, and work for competing teams. Just look at the disgraced guy who used to work for Mclaren, and now he will work in high position for Williams, and no one blinks an eyelid, so why such commotion that some ex-Honda employee works for another team in F1?

[Anomnader]

My female friend knows nothing about nimble stuff - she liked the look of it, and that was all. If I want nimble, I get BMW. Japanese car would be not on the top of my list, if "nimble" was the only criterium.

What? No BMW is as nimble as a Mazda MX5? If you think different please explain

[Talisman]

If I want nimble, I get BMW. Japanese car would be not on the top of my list, if "nimble" was the only criterium.

You're kidding.

Compare the Mk1 MX5 with the BMW 'riposte', the Z3.

[Buttoneer]

This thread is heading into Paddock Club territory. Could you steer these roadsters back towards the F1 teams please?

[Nottub]

TBH I don't think many Honda engineers moved to Ferrari. Honda's mid and low level engineers working on the project wouldn't have left Japan and would have had a glittering career in front of them at Honda, after all thats why they were picked for the F1 project in the first place, because they were the best. Osamu Goto though wanted to carry on with F1 after Honda left, he did so by transferring himself to McLaren first when Honda were still in F1, then taking a job at Ferrari only after Honda left. If you've seen the Fuji TV coverage of Senna's death, the Japanese TV reporters interview Goto wearing a Ferrari uniform about the effect the accident would have on F1, its somewhere on youtube.

I think the NSX was far more influential on Ferrari roadcars than any individual engineers though, this was a superbly engineered supercar that was easy to drive and reliable as well. Like the 911 to some extent it showed that supercars didn't have to be temperamental, unreliable and difficult to drive and Ferrari had to raise its standards in response.

Well you can ignore him all you want, I was just going by what Mr. Uehara said. No one knows for sure how many ended up in Maranello.

PS: For the interested, Gordon Murray's piece on the NSX and why his F1 became the car it is thanks to the NSX. This is an excelent read. In his opinion, selling it with a different brand name and additional power, "there is no question the NSX would have reigned as a cult star of the supercars."

[Bunchies]

The claim about reliability or about lack of passion?

I guess it would be both. Though well maintained rotaries and those used in motorsports applications don't seem to suffer from a lack of reliability. Much of the bad rep the engines get is from owners who had no business attempting to maintain it in the first place. They don't do too well if you just throw a boost controller onto them.

[Bunchies]

My female friend knows nothing about nimble stuff - she liked the look of it, and that was all. If I want nimble, I get BMW. Japanese car would be not on the top of my list, if "nimble" was the only criterium.

BMW has great feel and awesome dampers, but it's not the same as a Miata. There's a reason that they dominate autocross, and that is because they are light and tiny. Race track may be a different story.

[Buttoneer]

I did ask nicely, so it's a shame but - closed.