39 replies to this topic

[Wiggy]

Horner has done great things with Redbull Racing, but it's not his own team. Surely somewhere in his mind he dreams of bringing Arden into F1? Maybe he'll buy the team when Red Bull want out? Hes made a lot of contacts while running someone else's team, be interesting to see him running his own privateer setup.

[Dolph]

Horner has done great things with Redbull Racing, but it's not his own team. Surely somewhere in his mind he dreams of bringing Arden into F1? Maybe he'll buy the team when Red Bull want out? Hes made a lot of contacts while running someone else's team, be interesting to see him running his own privateer setup.

That could be said about any random top manager.

[Wiggy]

That could be said about any random top manager.

Except they don't all own their own GP2 teams

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well, except all the GP2 team owners.

[Ian G]

Horner has done great things with Redbull Racing, but it's not his own team. Surely somewhere in his mind he dreams of bringing Arden into F1? Maybe he'll buy the team when Red Bull want out? Hes made a lot of contacts while running someone else's team, be interesting to see him running his own privateer setup.

We were only discussing that premise with Friends(& Beer) at Xmas,Horner doing a Brawn as there are whispers that RB will have nothing to prove if they win 3 consecutive Titles but time will tell.One thing F-1 history tells us is that 10 years is a long time in F-1 for a non-motoring related investor.

[Wiggy]

Well, except all the GP2 team owners.

Except they don't run F1 teams on the side

[DanardiF1]

Horner has done great things with Redbull Racing, but it's not his own team. Surely somewhere in his mind he dreams of bringing Arden into F1? Maybe he'll buy the team when Red Bull want out? Hes made a lot of contacts while running someone else's team, be interesting to see him running his own privateer setup.

If he had real intentions of that I don't think he would've taken the RBR job in the first place. That decision said to me that his team was not absolutely connected to his personal ambitions in the sport.

He may have got a lot of contacts and experience from his time at RBR, but you would've thought that if Arden was really still his baby, he'd have turned them into a potent force in GP2, which frankly they're not.

[Morbus]

That could be said about any Christian Horner.

Fixed that for you.

And no, it couldn't.

[Dolph]

Except they don't all own their own GP2 teams

OK, but I'd also like to ask this: Mark Webber is driving in F1. BUT he also coowns a GP3 team with Christian Horner. I bet he is thinking that after Red Bull pull out of F1 he could buy the RB F1 team and hence continue driving in F1 and perhaps axe Vettel.


Discuss!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Except they don't run F1 teams on the side

So why would you go from having one of the best funded teams in the world to trying to find funding for a team that doesn't even have your name in it? You could just buy HRT for $1 if you wanted your own team.

[DanardiF1]

OK, but I'd also like to ask this: Mark Webber is driving in F1. BUT he also coowns a GP3 team with Christian Horner. I bet he is thinking that after Red Bull pull out of F1 he could buy the RB F1 team and hence continue driving in F1 and perhaps axe Vettel.


Discuss!

The answer is no. Again if he was absolutely commited to team ownership, he would have entries in more than just the GP3 Series. What happened there is Arden needed some extra money to secure the assets to race in GP3, and Horner asked Mark if he could recycle some of his hard earned cash on Arden Gp3...

[BullHead]

imo he's moved on...

[pingu666]

he probably considers redbull "his" team, he has put the team together after all

[Wiggy]

imo he's moved on...

But hasn't sold the team.

[TheBunk]

Horner has done great things with Redbull Racing, but it's not his own team. Surely somewhere in his mind he dreams of bringing Arden into F1? Maybe he'll buy the team when Red Bull want out? Hes made a lot of contacts while running someone else's team, be interesting to see him running his own privateer setup.

Why would red bull want out? Do you have any idea how big their involvement in sport is? I can imagine if he stops making red bull, but no sign of that happening since its only growing and growing.

And Horner making Arden a 600+employee F1 outfit i dont think he has the money to do that.

So no, i dont see it happening?

[H2H]

OK, but I'd also like to ask this: Mark Webber is driving in F1. BUT he also coowns a GP3 team with Christian Horner. I bet he is thinking that after Red Bull pull out of F1 he could buy the RB F1 team and hence continue driving in F1 and perhaps axe Vettel.


Discuss!

Mark and Christian might be able to buy a team, if the seller is willing to do at a low price but the big problems is that it is the operation of a F1 team which costs the big money. Brawn was able to get a team at the cost of a single pound or dollar because Honda anted to exit the F1 operation at every cost and could sell to Mercedes at a good price as they were so eager to own a team. But despite all the money from the outstanding contracts with Honda he still had to reduce staff levels drastically and could spend relatively little of developing the current car not the say anything about the 2010 car.

Anyway as Coulthard said to Newey around 2005, RBR is in for the long term and I guess that RBR will still be there in 10 years. Their financial position from their operative business is getting better and better and they have a company with one of the biggest pockets, if the not the biggest pockets when it comes to sport as owner. So far brilliant work by the team in practically every regard with Christian handling the operational, Marko the strategic side and Newey the technical side very well indeed. DM trusts them, lets them work and covers the costs which are increasingly resting on more shoulders.

Roughly a quarter ago

Red Bull Racing’s first Formula One constructors’ championship allowed the team to post a £2.8 million pre-tax profit last year, according to team principal Christian Horner.

The Austrian outfit has become the dominant force in F1 over the past two years and saw Sebastian Vettel add to the constructors’ championship by securing the drivers’ title in 2010. Red Bull Racing is wholly-owned by the Austrian energy drinks giant through its UK holding company Red Bull Technology. Horner revealed that the £2.8 million profit figure was 75% based on the F1 operation, with the remainder coming from other projects.

Vettel and team-mate Mark Webber’s exploits last year boosted the team's prize money to about £56 million and also contributed to a rise in sponsorship income as Pepe Jeans, LG and forex broker FXDD joined the team’s portfolio. "The biggest increases for us, on the revenue side, were a 20% increase (in prize money) from Formula One Management and sponsorship," said Horner, according to The Guardian.

Red Bull Racing looks on course to repeat its 2010 success this season with Vettel only one point away from retaining his title, as the team enjoys a huge 138 point lead in the constructors’ championship. Red Bull acquired the team from Ford in 2004 and has since ploughed considerable resources into developing it. Red Bull Racing's accounts show that in 2009 it covered £96.9 million of the team's £132 million costs but Horner said it now provides less than half. “The cost of Formula One to Red Bull is below 50% (of our expenditure) and is continuing to reduce,” he added.

A Q&A with the strategic head at Red Bull Racing:

AUTOSPORT talks to Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko following the team's double championship success in 2011.

Q. What is the economic impact of two more world titles for RBR in 2011?

Helmut Marko: We increase our income from sponsors. The financial difference between first and second in the championship, this prize money from FOM, will completely be paid as bonus to all employees of the team. As last year, everyone gets his or her share, including the receptionist and the cleaning staff. Moreover, you have to consider the "political" impact because of our stronger position in any discussions with the FIA, FOM or FOTA. Basically you can say: the higher your success, the lower your expenses.

Q. How did the sponsor portfolio change?

HM: All sponsors that were here before raised their contributions. And we are happy to welcome new deals regularly, more and more approaches are made to us with a good part of them concluded.

Q. How does Red Bull Racing benefit from the contract extension with Renault and the partnership with Nissan and Infiniti?

HM: We reach the status of partner of Renault. This means we improve our financial situation and increase our influence. We reach priority.

Q. Red Bull Racing, however, was so far customer of Renault and had to pay for the engines?

HM: Yes. But the whole deal is very complex. From 2014 we will have a new engine formula. This needs an intensive exchange between the leading technicians on both sides. Our guys, lead by Adrian (Newey), will be involved in the construction of the 6-cylinder-turbo. After the recent Japanese GP Newey and some of his personnel were already visiting a plant of Nissan-Infiniti which specialises in battery technology and had excellent discussions with the Japanese experts.

Q. Will you offer a Red Bull-Infiniti road car to the public after the Vettel FX will be produced in a small series of 500 units?

HM: A Red Bull-Renault Clio will be on sale, but this is only a specially designed version without new technical features.

Q. Can you keep the important people in your team?

HM: People in all key positions are under contract until and through 2014. You know we rely on continuity, however we avoid running into a standstill. We will continuously optimise our staff.

Edited by H2H, 29 January 2012 - 08:35.

[noikeee]

Can't see it happening because of the financial difficulties for jumping from GP2 to F1, it's practically impossible and hasn't really happened since the F3000 days when already it hardly ever worked out - the last successful one was what, Jordan in 1991?

ART (who are bigger than Arden) looked at it and figured it wasn't viable. Campos tried it and got burnt. You need massive investment from somewhere, experience at the top level from the team manager isn't going to take that problem away.

[Risil]

He'd need a really Jackie Stewart-sized amount of sponsorship. With that, yeah, anything's possible.

[F1ultimate]

I call shenanigans. Horner surely must have his feet firmly on the ground. F1 is expensive, very expensive. Very few team owners survive the first three years of ownership. Even Brawn was struggling with funding in 2009 despite having a successful car and did the right thing by selling the team to Mercedes. And oh let's not forget Adrian Newey. Finding people like him willing to join the ladder of a new team entry is rare.

As I see it. Horner is staying putt, at least so long at Newey is there.

[karne]

I don't understand why everyone's lauding Christian Horner as a super-fabulous teamboss.

Sure, the team is now at the top of F1. They have a super car - thanks to Adrian Newey and their engineers. But is he such a great teamboss? Frankly I think not. If he is such a great teamboss why is it that it is almost inevitable now there will be some kind of flashpoint this season where the team is totally disharmonous?

A great teamboss would have NOT taken sides at all at Turkey until he'd seen replays; and then once he had, would have clipped Vettel around the ears, for example. His driver management is appalling. A great teamboss would not claim, "we have driver equality, we have driver equality"...and then remove a front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other's, and proceed to get all ******** when people accuse him of favouritism.

His driver management skills are just appalling.

[bourbon]

Christian has proven himself to be a stellar boss; growing more able and capable with the team as it bourgeoned into a top contender. He's handled the drivers perfectly as well as the media. I am not sure how that translate into team owner, I would imagine it necessitates additional skills. But he is a fantastic manager, quick and smart and so he has the personality for something more if he chose to do it. I think owning in F1 is a huge project tho, he may not wish to take it on.

[DanardiF1]

I don't understand why everyone's lauding Christian Horner as a super-fabulous teamboss.

Sure, the team is now at the top of F1. They have a super car - thanks to Adrian Newey and their engineers. But is he such a great teamboss? Frankly I think not. If he is such a great teamboss why is it that it is almost inevitable now there will be some kind of flashpoint this season where the team is totally disharmonous?

A great teamboss would have NOT taken sides at all at Turkey until he'd seen replays; and then once he had, would have clipped Vettel around the ears, for example. His driver management is appalling. A great teamboss would not claim, "we have driver equality, we have driver equality"...and then remove a front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other's, and proceed to get all ******** when people accuse him of favouritism.

His driver management skills are just appalling.

I can distill my thoughts about Horner into just one sentence: He's a sh** boss and a complete tw@t.

[H2H]

I can distill my thoughts about Horner into just one sentence: He's a sh** boss and a complete tw@t.

So he must do a brilliant job at RBR.

Horner was signed right at the start and is rightly regarded by DM as one of those 'best' they signed, which in turn recruited other top guys. The built-up of RBR by DM, Marko and later Horner and later Newey to name a few is almost a lesson how do you rise to the top in F1. You have to earn such intensive attributes by fans of other teams in online forum really only by big success.

[Nustang70]

If Horner is using his time at Red Bull as a learning tool, then so far he hasn't applied any of the lessons of success from Red Bull. Arden have sucked for years.

More bizarrely, he hasn't had much success in attracting Red Bull money to his Arden outfits--the GP2 team had Buemi for one season, but I believe that's it. And now apparently his new team in WSR, which has been Red Bull's preferred talent-grooming series, has partnered up with Caterham rather than Red Bull.

Boullier (in 2010 anyway) had much more success creating synergy between his GP2 team and the F1 team that he managed.

[ArtShelley]

I don't understand why everyone's lauding Christian Horner as a super-fabulous teamboss.

Sure, the team is now at the top of F1. They have a super car - thanks to Adrian Newey and their engineers. But is he such a great teamboss? Frankly I think not. If he is such a great teamboss why is it that it is almost inevitable now there will be some kind of flashpoint this season where the team is totally disharmonous?

A great teamboss would have NOT taken sides at all at Turkey until he'd seen replays; and then once he had, would have clipped Vettel around the ears, for example. His driver management is appalling. A great teamboss would not claim, "we have driver equality, we have driver equality"...and then remove a front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other's, and proceed to get all ******** when people accuse him of favouritism.

His driver management skills are just appalling.

But isn't this just the disgruntled Webber fan in you talking? Sorry, not sure why I phrased that as a question.

[Talisman]

I don't understand why everyone's lauding Christian Horner as a super-fabulous teamboss.

Sure, the team is now at the top of F1. They have a super car - thanks to Adrian Newey and their engineers. But is he such a great teamboss? Frankly I think not. If he is such a great teamboss why is it that it is almost inevitable now there will be some kind of flashpoint this season where the team is totally disharmonous?

A great teamboss would have NOT taken sides at all at Turkey until he'd seen replays; and then once he had, would have clipped Vettel around the ears, for example. His driver management is appalling. A great teamboss would not claim, "we have driver equality, we have driver equality"...and then remove a front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other's, and proceed to get all ******** when people accuse him of favouritism.

His driver management skills are just appalling.

Horner manages more than just the drivers, if anything the drivers are the thing he has least control over with guys like Marko interfering.

I think he's done a great job taking a failing team and using his admittedly large budget wisely to turn it into the one the others have to beat. Plenty of other wise heads have failed doing the same. And this is someone who has not had any significant experience of managing any kind of company that actually has to design and construct a product.

[Risil]

If you look at Red Bull's results, he seems to have done a good job. They've got a big budget, but teams have had huge budgets and failed to unseat the likes of Mclaren, Ferrari and Renault before.

No idea what his job description is though.

[KateLM]

Surely the one thing Horner will have learnt from Red Bull is the importance of having a good budget and using it to get right technical people. And I think he'll be realistic enough to know that he's not going to get that with Arden. I highly doubt it's even a consideration.

[TheBunk]

Both Horner and Newey maintained they take a lot of pride beating established and bigger budget/staffed teams like Mclaren. A fact underlined by Eddie Jordan when he asked Martin Withmarsh just how many people Mclaren employs today, and got a sheepish laugh as answer.

I think Horner does well. He got Newey, has Vettel through red bull youth program. Apparently keeps both happy enough to stay in the team. Is grounded, funny and relaxed. Despite his young age seems very intelligent and experienced. And beats decade old records with a budget smaller than others, and an engine reputedly 30 bhp down on 'reliability enhanced' mercedes and ferrari units. I bet hes on the short list of becoming OBE or better this year.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Red Bull is hardly 'the little team that could'.

[Risil]

Red Bull is hardly 'the little team that could'.

True, but one measure of Horner's success is the number of people who believe they are.

[Talisman]

And beats decade old records with a budget smaller than others, and an engine reputedly 30 bhp down on 'reliability enhanced' mercedes and ferrari units.

I agree with everything else you said but those two. Smaller budget than others? Really? At the very least RBR are at the top end of the RRA budget and quite possibly spend more than that. As for the Renault, it may be slightly down on power but it has other advantages in terms of packaging and oil/water cooling needs as indicated by the high demand for their engines. I don't think being Renault powered handicaps RBR by any means.

[faaaz]

His driver management skills are just appalling.

2x WDC and 2xWCC would say otherwise...at the end of the day, thats all that matters.

[TheBunk]

I agree with everything else you said but those two. Smaller budget than others? Really? At the very least RBR are at the top end of the RRA budget and quite possibly spend more than that. As for the Renault, it may be slightly down on power but it has other advantages in terms of packaging and oil/water cooling needs as indicated by the high demand for their engines. I don't think being Renault powered handicaps RBR by any means.

Well, you could question Horner being open about the size of the red bull budget/staff, but why would eddie jordan, an objective bbc pundit, laughingly joke how much bigger mclaren is than Red Bull? And Newey - not a man known to exagerate stuff - also stated several times his outfit is smaller than big boys Ferrari/Mclaren, and in fact said thats one of their strenghts, that they are not having so many sub commitees to deal with, but let people free to follow their instinct.

And im pretty sure the demand for the mercedes engine is even higher than that of the Renault. Horner stated several times he is displeased with the disparaty, and would happily trade in the other advantages for the time gained in the extra horsepower. There is a reason why the teams, media, left and right, see Spa and Monza, as bogey tracks for red bull. And even more praise for Horner that they managed to humiliate the favorite merc teams for those tracks with set up gambles.

Edited by TheBunk, 30 January 2012 - 20:23.

[Talisman]

Well, you could question Horner being open about the size of the red bull budget/staff, but why would eddie jordan, an objective bbc pundit, laughingly joke how much bigger mclaren is than Red Bull? And Newey - not a man known to exagerate stuff - also stated several times his outfit is smaller than big boys Ferrari/Mclaren, and in fact said thats one of their strenghts, that they are not having so many sub commitees to deal with, but let people free to follow their instinct.

I must confess that I do not rate Eddie Jordan as being a reliable accurate source of information. He loves portraying fairytale stories of tiny teams taking it to the big ones, Brawn building their car in a week on a budget of 50p and winning the championship or tiny underresourced RBR taking on Ferrari, McLaren and winning.

I would rather go with what is in the public domain about RB spending, and they are up there in spending terms with the top teams at the very least squeezed up against the upper limit of the RRA. They are not small or underresourced.

As for the lack of subcommittees, that refers more to the management structure at RBR and I do believe they operate a flatter structure than at McLaren.

And im pretty sure the demand for the mercedes engine is even higher than that of the Renault. Horner stated several times he is displeased with the disparaty, and would happily trade in the other advantages for the time gained in the extra horsepower. There is a reason why the teams, media, left and right, see Spa and Monza, as bogey tracks for red bull. And even more praise for Horner that they managed to humiliate the favorite merc teams for those tracks with set up gambles.

Horner has the option of switching to Ferrari instantaneously. He hasn't taken that option up.

IIRC Ferrari and Renault are not contracted to STR and RBR but the company that owns the two concerns. Hence how the Ferrari engine supply was passed from RBR to STR once RBR was able to sign with Renault. Ferrari were largely powerless to stop this as they were still contracted to supplying the same company which had decided to use them in a different team.

The fact that Horner hasn't asked for a switch back to Ferrari engines should tell you that there is some advantage in having the Renault engines despite the relative lack of horsepower.

[Supersleeper]

I don't understand why everyone's lauding Christian Horner as a super-fabulous teamboss.

Sure, the team is now at the top of F1. They have a super car - thanks to Adrian Newey and their engineers. But is he such a great teamboss? Frankly I think not. If he is such a great teamboss why is it that it is almost inevitable now there will be some kind of flashpoint this season where the team is totally disharmonous?

Those things aren't of his making - and cleaning up the mess that others make - who are directly employed by DM - isn't his job either.

A great teamboss would have NOT taken sides at all at Turkey until he'd seen replays; and then once he had, would have clipped Vettel around the ears, for example. His driver management is appalling. A great teamboss would not claim, "we have driver equality, we have driver equality"...and then remove a front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other's, and proceed to get all ******** when people accuse him of favouritism.

Disagree slightly - he shouldn't have spoken publicly immediately to the media. As for taking sides - well he wasn't aware of the things that transpired (or more correctly - didn't) during that race.

His driver management skills are just appalling.

Not at all. He's the guy usually calming the situation - he'd have to do less of that if there was less agitation from consultants living their dreams vicariously through the efforts of others.

Horner has one of the most difficult jobs in F1, not only does he have to deal with the pressure of producing an "overnight success" - which he's achieved with a great team of people, he also has to deal with substantial politics. He never comes across as temperamental - was honest with himself very early on with regard to his own driving abilities, has been very responsible throughout the growth of the team and has achieved some fantastic results. I'm not sure of another individual that would have weaved his way through the past few years without making far more enemies that he has.

He deserves a significant amount of respect for his achievements in leading a very intelligent and headstrong group of people, at least, and perhaps moreso for the way in which that has been achieved.

As for him using Red Bull as a learning tool for Arden - very much so - but not for F1.

[Ian G]

Horner has the option of switching to Ferrari instantaneously. He hasn't taken that option up.

IIRC Ferrari and Renault are not contracted to STR and RBR but the company that owns the two concerns. Hence how the Ferrari engine supply was passed from RBR to STR once RBR was able to sign with Renault. Ferrari were largely powerless to stop this as they were still contracted to supplying the same company which had decided to use them in a different team.

The fact that Horner hasn't asked for a switch back to Ferrari engines should tell you that there is some advantage in having the Renault engines despite the relative lack of horsepower.

There is a story there that was never fully explained,AFAIK,several Journo's at the time said they were "desperate" to get the Renault engine but to my knowledge the reasons never fully stated,as were the claims that Webber came with the engines as part of the deal.. Only link from that period still working is a later one from Joe Saward.
http://joesaward.wor...does-it-matter/

I think Horner,overall,has done a great job,i don't know why people would want to rubbish his achievments.

Edited by Ian G, 01 February 2012 - 21:27.

[H2H]

There is a story there that was never fully explained,AFAIK,several Journo's at the time said they were "desparate" to get the Renault engine but to my knowledge the reasons never fully stated,as were the claims that Webber came with the engines as part of the deal.. Only link from that period still working is a later one from Joe Saward.
http://joesaward.wor...does-it-matter/

I think Horner,overall,has done a great job,i don't know why people would want to rubbish his achievments.

I don't know about the story, but we should keep in mind that Webber was rightly regarded as the best available talent on the market, so Renault might or might not be tied with it.

[KateLM]

I think Renault gave far better technical support to its customer teams than Ferrari do (more engineers and things like that), which is maybe why Red Bull wanted to switch. The Renault engine is also supposedly the most fuel efficient engine on the grid. It's also worth keeping in mind that it's quite easy for Red Bull to blame weaknesses on the engine, given that they don't manufacture it. I'm not saying the Renault is necessarily the best engine on the grid but it's not a bad one and it comes with its advantages.

I don't know about the story, but we should keep in mind that Webber was rightly regarded as the best available talent on the market, so Renault might or might not be tied with it.

I remember the stories at the time, but given that Webber has been through several contracts since then and Flavio is no longer at Renault, I think even if such a link did once exist it wouldn't be relevant now.

I think this has got a little off track from Arden though. Although I suppose engines is yet another thing against them coming into F1. All the manufacturers have more than enough customers and running Cosworths/PURE engines (if they do enter) probably will be a more genuine handicap than running a Renault one is.

[TheBunk]

I must confess that I do not rate Eddie Jordan as being a reliable accurate source of information.

He did it live on tv! Withmarsh declined to answer and did not deny it. Case closed. Mclaren is bigger than red bull.

Horner has the option of switching to Ferrari instantaneously. He hasn't taken that option up.

Because Newey said Ferrari doesnt give the same support Renault does. They just deliver the engine and thats it.

I think Renault gave far better technical support to its customer teams than Ferrari do (more engineers and things like that), which is maybe why Red Bull wanted to switch.

This.