54 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

Most people knmow that Ford funded the initial development of the Cosworth DFV engine to the tune of £100,000. This is rightly regarded as one of the great bargains, not only in motor racing but also in advertising for the publicity it gave Ford. What I don't think I've ever seen is what exactly that payment covered, and whether Ford invested more money in the project later.

I believe, from Graham Robson's book on Cosworth, that the final instalment of the £100,000 was paid on 1st Jan 1968, which suggests that it covered Cosworth's costs for 1967. I was trying to work out wheher this seems reasonable, to cover designing, building the engines; staff costs and raw materials. It doesn't seem like a lot.

Presumably at some stage, the teams started paying for the engines. does anyone know when that was? Many of the cars carried Ford decals in the early 70's, presumably implying that Ford were putting money either into the teams or into Cosworth.

[fines]

As far as I understood the deal, Ford was paying to have the blue oval on the cams, Cosworth was using the money to develop the engine and then sold it off to customers. That was that, and everyone was happy! Ford had the PR, Cosworth the means to build an outstanding engine and the teams were willing to pay for that anyway.

I can't recall that many Ford decals on the cars, maybe just Lotus and Stewart. Surely they had contracts with Ford.

[David M. Kane]

As far as I know everyone started paying immediately. A DFV
costed $27,500 approximately in 1973. A decent restored one
costs around $45,000+ today.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by fines
I can't recall that many Ford decals on the cars, maybe just Lotus and Stewart. Surely they had contracts with Ford.

I presume yoy mean Lotus and Tyrrell?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by fines
As far as I understood the deal, Ford was paying to have the blue oval on the cams, Cosworth was using the money to develop the engine and then sold it off to customers. That was that, and everyone was happy! Ford had the PR, Cosworth the means to build an outstanding engine and the teams were willing to pay for that anyway.

I can't recall that many Ford decals on the cars, maybe just Lotus and Stewart. Surely they had contracts with Ford.

McLaren and March wore Ford decals as late as 1972. I know that Tyrell were supported by ford, and it wasn't coincidence that they were the same colour as the Ford oval.

But when did Lotus start paying for their engines?

[FLB]

At first, Tyrrell paid for his engines, although I can't find the exact figure at the moment . I seem to remember something on the order of 7000£ or 8000£ contemporary. Can anybody confirm?

[david_martin]

That is surprising. I had read that Ford actually put up part or all of the money for Ken Tyrrell to acquire the March 701 chassis that the team ran during 1970. Around 1975 an audit of Ford's books revealled that they owned at least 1 March 701, and they requested Tyrrell to drag it out of a shed behind his factory and hand it over. So given they funded or part funded the teams chassis for 1970, it would have been unusual for Ford to demand payment for their engines.

[Ray Bell]

I wouldn't be surprised if Chapman was paying from the outset, for his beef was that there were no engines available, not that he couldn't afford them.

But let's go back a step...

At first, the initial development paid for by the Ford money, Cosworth developed the FVA, this standing for Four Valve Arrangement. This was, as everything else they had done to date, based on the Ford 105E/109E/116E/125E etc block.

The fitted new cranks and probably rods, shortened the camshaft so that it only drove the ancillaries, made a head and timing chest with the attendant gear drives for the cams.

Ostensibly, this was to test the principles they were to use on the DFV (Double Four Valve) and prove them before they went to the next step. Combustion chambers and porting were all as was to come on the DFV.

Cosworths immediately got a return on this development, selling hordes of these engines to the F2 runners as they were a very good thing. In fact, had the 1.5 formula lived a little longer, it's possible this engine may have been developed to take over where Climax left off, or at least make a dent in the power units chosen by the privateers.

Remember Jacky Ickx at the Nurburgring... was it 1967? Running F2 and up amongst the faster F1s?

The engine, from memory, had (in 1600cc form) about 225 hp, which was getting close to 2.5 Climax FPF power.

This step passed, the foundries churning out heads by the dozen and customers piling in the front door, Cosworth could boldly move into the DFV with both themselves and Ford confident of success.

I would think there was ongoing money, too, as Ford were printing posters with pics of the 150 GP winners etc many years later.

Later there was the BDA (Belt Drive Arrangement) and its derivatives, which eliminated the problem of having to discard heads when they were damaged because it was no longer possible to keep the gear train in mesh to drive the cams. It was a strange one in its capacity, 1601cc.

Now that I have got into nomenclature, there were other versions carrying different designations. I believe the FVC was simply an 1850cc version of the FVA, but I don't know if an FVB existed. The DFVs went to DFY and DFX - again, were there others? - and the BDA had BDD (FAtlantic - 1598cc) and also BDG (2-litre?), I don't know if there were others. There were alloy blocks available for the BDG at least.

[David M. Kane]

7 to 8,000 pounds translates to $17,000 to $20,000 USA at the time since the pound was worth $2.50 at the time. The Tyrell story seems very likely since during this time Ferrari was courting Stewart and Walter Hayes convinced
Ford to pay Stewart's salary so he would stay with Ken.
Lets remember that Ken Tyrell was basically a timber merchant who happened to also run a race team, so the bills
were starting to pile in pretty quickly.

I would agree that Ford was in deeper than they put on and were pretty low-profile. Lastly, Walter Hayes was a very
clever, very crafty and a man of extremely fine judgement.
He was so modest that people are just now realizing just what a deep impact he had on British motorsport and what
a great leader he was.

[FLB]

Originally posted by david_martin
That is surprising. I had read that Ford actually put up part or all of the money for Ken Tyrrell to acquire the March 701 chassis that the team ran during 1970. Around 1975 an audit of Ford's books revealled that they owned at least 1 March 701, and they requested Tyrrell to drag it out of a shed behind his factory and hand it over. So given they funded or part funded the teams chassis for 1970, it would have been unusual for Ford to demand payment for their engines.

Tyrrell started using DFV's in 1968, with a Matra chassis. Stewart won the championship with that combo in 1969. It would not be surprising if Ford put up money for Tyrrell shortly afterwards, but that does not indicate which direction the relationship had prior to late 1969 - early 1970.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The DFVs went to DFY and DFX - again, were there others?

DFL, 3.3l sportscar
DFS, 2.65l tc Indy/CART (1989? - 1993?)
DFZ, DFR 3.5l F1 (1987 - 1991)

[Ray Bell]

Yes, forgot the DFL, but I thought the DFX was the Indy engine.

I don't think there was a separate designation for the Tasman 2.5 engines.
Some say the engines were no different, either....

[FLB]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Yes, forgot the DFL, but I thought the DFX was the Indy engine.

I don't think there was a separate designation for the Tasman 2.5 engines.
Some say the engines were no different, either....

The DFX was the "old" Indy engine, from 1976 to the late 1980's.

You bet there was a different designation for Tasman, the DFW, which I totally forgot about...

[Ray Bell]

The BRM team reckoned they were no different....

But they said that the year before about the Repcos!

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I don't think there was a separate designation for the Tasman 2.5 engines.
Some say the engines were no different, either....

Surely they were destoked to 2.5L Ray??? Surely you are not suggesting that in the 68 Tasman Series Clark & Hill were using pukka 3.0L DFV's

[david_martin]

Originally posted by FLB
[Tyrrell started using DFV's in 1968, with a Matra chassis. Stewart won the championship with that combo in 1969. It would not be surprising if Ford put up money for Tyrrell shortly afterwards, but that does not indicate which direction the relationship had prior to late 1969 - early 1970.

True, but in 1968 and 1969 the entrant was Matra International. Tyrrell as an entrant (as opposed to Ken Tyrrell doing the preparation of Matra's cars) only debuted in 1970, hence my remarks. I do not doubt that Matra paid handsomly for their DFV's in '68 and '69.

[fines]

Originally posted by david_martin
True, but in 1968 and 1969 the entrant was Matra International. Tyrrell as an entrant (as opposed to Ken Tyrrell doing the preparation of Matra's cars) only debuted in 1970, hence my remarks

Matra International was only a sponsor's name for the Tyrrell Racing Organisation, just like John Player Special for Team Lotus.

[Ray Bell]

I don't know, to be sure, Bernd... they were fast, but Amon's speed in the 2.4 Dino V6 wasn't far off their pace either. Don't forget Courage also ran a DFV in the Tasman of 1969, he drove a Brabham BT26, I think, bi-winged.

[Megatron]

The DFX was the engine that CART teams ran in the late 70's until the late 80's, when the new Chevy Ilmor put it to shame. Some of the back marker teams ran the engine as late as 1991.

It is a bit of a mystery what the offical badge of the engine was. Most of the time during this span, I have just seen "Cosworth", but I have seen a few "Ford" decals. In respect to both parties, when Ford is braging about its "long history in racing" it is usually refered to as a Ford, when they are talking about how teams avoided the DFX like the plauge because it was hopelessly off power, it is refered to as a Cosworth, generally.

The reason that Ford got decals on some cars and not on others was because some teams had relationships with Ford that involved personal appearances, endorsments, or in the case of the time that Jackie Stewart was at Tyrell, they actually paid his salary.

Kind of like the Indy car DFX, the DFV became more Cosworth as its competiveness wayned. I saw a picture of the 82 car that Rosberg won the title with and this model didn't even have Ford on the cams.

Of course in the record books, Cosworth only has 16 offical starts, while Ford has upwards of 150 wins. Funny world we live in with all these "badges".

[fines]

Generally, the DFV/DFY had 'Ford' on the cams and the DFX 'Cosworth'. Since both types were manufactured and distributed by Cosworth and had the same head, mix-ups were probably inevitable. I think the Ford deal only covered the F1 engines, and the DFW and DFX were spin-offs that were financed and, of course, developed by Cosworth, hence they were badged 'Cosworth'.

I'm not so sure about the DFL, but I think most ran as 'Ford'. These were then developed to the DFZ 3.5 litre in 1987, which carried the 'Ford' badge again in F1. Ford then injected some more money for the DFR, which had a completely new head, and from this came the DFS Indy engine, which was again 'Cosworth' AFAIK.

[Bernd]

This may be a question more suited to the Technical Forum but anyway... Was there any of the original DFV left in Michael Schumachers winning Benetton Ford in 1994?

Or was it a completely new engine?

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't that 1993?

I don't think there was much in there, it seems to me to have been a smaller engine, and we've already had the mention of the difference in the Indy version... better to go to tech and get a fuller answer, I think.

[Bernd]

Definately 94 Ray and 95 with Renault. I was just curious I won't bother the Technical Forum with such a simple question.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Bernd
Definitely 94 Ray and 95 with Renault. I was just curious I won't bother the Technical Forum with such a simple question.

like I said, I feel sure it was physically smaller. It may have been a smaller included angle in the vee, too. There's a question that fits in with a current thread on Tech...

[Megatron]

This may or may not answer the question but I read somewhere that the last "relitive" of the DFV F1 engine was fitted in the back of the Jordan's in 1991.

[Ray Bell]

A lot depends on what you mean by 'relative.'

There would undoubtedly be common bolts, possibly rods and cam followers, but as far as the major stuff, I would reckon you'd find nothing in common.

[Darren Galpin]

The DFY won the 1983 Detroit GP, the 155th and final World Championship win for the DFV lineage. Other derivatives of the engine were still raced, the 2.65 litre Turbocharged V8 DFX being used for Indycars, the 3.3 litre DFL V8 used for stockcars, and larger capacity versions being used in sportscars. The engine didn't totally die - once the Turbo Years were over, Cosworth produced the 3.5 litre DFZ for customer use, and a 3.5 litre works DFR. The DFV even continues on to this day - DFVs had found their way into Formula 3000 in the mid-80s, and can still be heard in the FIA Thoroughbred Grand Prix series.


From http://www.racer.demon.nl/8w/dfv.html, The Cosworth DFV Story.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Megatron
This may or may not answer the question but I read somewhere that the last "relitive" of the DFV F1 engine was fitted in the back of the Jordan's in 1991.

Megatron, it's quite the opposite actually. Jordan used the first "customer" version of the HB, which had nothing to do with the DFV derivatives. The DFR's were used up to 1991 by various teams (Larrousse's Harts, Coloni's Langford & Pecks, AGS's Maders, etc.). By 1992, they were gone.

[karlcars]

Ray's summary of the origin of the DFV is very good. As I noted in my piece on Walter Hayes in Atlas F1, equal credit is owed to Harley Copp of Ford for the initiative to make the deal with Duckworth. He was the UK engineering chief at the time and a fan of racing. £100,000 was no small amount at the time, especially for a little outfit like Cosworth.

Regarding the DFX, Keith Duckworth told me he approached Ford to see if they would like their name on it -- as a gift, really -- and they said no thanks! That's why it was badged as a Cosworth.

Ovals only appeared on the V-8s in the early 1980s, at my initiative. At that time we at Ford spent another (devalued) £100,000 with Cosworth to develop the DFL family for Group C racing. Cosworth needed us, in fact, because Group C cars could only be powered by engines 'built' by a company that had also homologated passenger cars in Group A. Those engines were very officially 'Fords' and it said so on the block.

Chapman would of course have liked to hang on to the DFV exclusivity for longer, but Ford talked him out of it. In the first season I'm sure that Lotus had free use of the engines but I think from 1968 they began to be sold at around £7,500 the copy. McLaren, riding high at the time, was one of the first to get them.

[fines]

I have seen the 1971 version of the DFV called a 'Mark 2', have there been other development designations? What about the short-stroke DFV that was introduced in the early eighties? And I seem to recall another fairly major update of the engine, in 1977 IIRC. Anyone with details?

[fines]

No takers here? I am surprised!

[FLB]

Fines, do you mean the "development" engine that Team Lotus used?

[Ray Bell]

Some have been previously mentioned, fee-nes... like the magnesium block version... too difficult for me to trace these things for timing, but I think that was about 1980/81.

Undoubtedly there were ways the makers kept track of which versions of the engine various clients had, which would no doubt have meant some kind of an official type numbering system.

[Roger Clark]

According to Graham Robson there were no changes to the DFV from 1973 to 1976. By the end of this period it was clear that the Flat-12 Ferrari could, at last, beat the V8 on a regular basis. For 1977 Duckworth started development again concentrating at first on the use of magnesium castings for the cylinder heads and block. this saved 44lbs in weight but gave many reliability problems due to differential expansion as the engine warmed up. THey then turned their attention to the internal aeodynamics of the engine and to the external packaging to make it more suitable for fitting in a ground effect car. As far as I know, none of these developments were given publicly released type numbers.

In 1983, they introduced a short strooke version, and soon after, the DFR, which, as well as the shorter stroke, had a reduced vlve angle and a further reduction in weight. The DFY had a shorter exhaust system and intake trumpets and new magnesium inlet manifold plus varioous head modifications.

It is not clear to me what was a short stroke DFV and what was a DFY, as there were a number of different specifications. Doug Nye says that the first DFYs were delivered to williams and McLaren for the 1983 French GRand Prix. Later on the same page, he says that only seven "true" DFYs were built and delivered to Tyrell.

Most of this comes from Graham Robson "Cosworth, the Search for Power", and from Doug Nye "History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-91". John Blunsden's "The Power to Win", which I don't have, should be another useful source. Robson's book also contains a summary of all the DFx engine types (this was written in 1989):

DFV: THe classic. Cosworth built up to number 421. The first seven for Team lotus were outside the numbering system, and 88 complete kits were supplied for outside builder assembly. total number built 421+7+88=516

DFW: 2.5 litre Tasman formula engines, all converted from DFVs

DFX: 2.65 litreturbocharged for CART/Indy. Cosworth built 347 engines, 7 of which were later listed as DFS, plus 110 kits, 6 of which were DFS kits

DFY: The early 80s 3-litre F1 development. engine numbers 2-21 were short stroke DFVs (see above!) Engines numbered 1 and 22-27 had different heads, an integral cam carrier and different valve angles.

DFL Endurance or sports car engines, 36 engines built by Cosworth in 3.3 or 3.9 litres. some DFVs were converted to DFL 3.3s by their owners.

DFZ: 3.5litre F1 engine for late 1980s. Cosworth built 5 complete engines and supplied 75 kits. I am not sure whether the kits were complete for outside assembly, or whether they were to convert a DFV.

DFR: Ultimate version of the DFx family, used by Benetton in 1988 and by other customers in 1989. At the time Rbson was writing Cosworth had supplied 23 complete engines and 37 kits

DFS: 1988-89 development of the DFX. At that time Cosworth had built 7 engines and 6 kits.

All production data for the DFV, DFX/DFS and DFR must be dated as they were still being produced at the time Robson wrote his book.

As reqards cost, robson quotes £7,500 for a DFV in 1968. THe first DFVs for F3000 cars cost £25,000. The original price of the DFX, in the late 1970s was $25,000. The April 1989 price for a built and tested DFR was £46,000.

[fines]

Thanks Roger, great info! But it seems there were no 'official' designations, as I had presumed. However, I have seen at least two sources refering to the 1971 engine as 'Mark 2' (one was Doug Nye, AUTOCOURSE History of the Grand Prix Car, German translation), debuting with Jackie Stewart at Kyalami '71. If there was indeed no change between 1973 and 1976, the 'development' engines of Team Lotus and McLaren in 1977 should've been 'Mark 3', or whatever. And the short-stroke DFVs were numbered in the DFY sequence?

[Ray Bell]

I sincerely doubt that they never changed a camshaft profile in three years, and that this change wasn't documented in some record system which gave the new build a different designation of some kind..

What we really need is someone who worked for them.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by fines
I have seen at least two sources refering to the 1971 engine as 'Mark 2' (one was Doug Nye, AUTOCOURSE History of the Grand Prix Car, German translation), debuting with Jackie Stewart at Kyalami '71. If there was indeed no change between 1973 and 1976, the 'development' engines of Team Lotus and McLaren in 1977 should've been 'Mark 3', or whatever. And the short-stroke DFVs were numbered in the DFY sequence?

I looked in the english language version of Doug Nye's book. The chapter on the Tyrells doesn't mention a Mark 2 version of the DFV, but it does refer to a Series 11 engine. This could have been translated as mark 2 using roman numerals, but I think it is more likely to refer to the year.

It does seem that the short stroke DFV, or at least some of them, were numbered in the DFY sequence.

I agree with Ray that it seems unlikely that there were no changes to the cam profiles in three years. However, both Nye's and Robson's books say so explicitly. Robson in particular, seems to have spoken to many Cosworth employees at some length, including Duckworth. You can also look at the opposition at this time and ask whether they needed to do much development.

Considering its importance in the history of Motor Racing, it sems that remarkebly little is recordedabout the development of the DFV. It would be nice to think that one day we could have as comprehensive a history of the engines as we have for many of the cars. I am not aware of any such records. I hope that the designers of the Standard Motor Racing Database will at least allow for such an extension.

[fines]

It does say 'Series 11' also in the German version, but I had thought this to be a translation error, as there are several in the book elsewhere (eg BT458 for BT45B etc). Maybe I'm entirely on the wrong path?

[Roger Clark]

One interesting fact I came across while reading about this. Apparently a magnesium block engine was built as early as 1969 for one of that year's 4WD cars. Guess which one?

[david_martin]

Pure speculation, but the Lotus 63?

[Marcor]

This was the (in)famous own car 4RM Cosworth designed by Robin Herd and Keith Duckworth in 1969. The car was tested in the beginning of July at Silverstone by Mike Costin (which the name was also linked to Cosworth).

The car never raced (in GP).

Can anyone post a picture of this car ? I've got a lot but I can't scan easily.

[Marcor]

From A-Z of Formula Racing cars 1945-1990.

Cosworth:
This most original and ingenious four wheel drive F1 was built in 1969 and extensively tested (by Trevor Taylor, Mike Costin, Brian Redman but Jackie Stewart also drove the car) but never raced...

As in other 4RM cars of the time, the DFV was installed reversed and coupled to a Cosworth-designed gearbox, which used Hewland parts, behind the cockpit, with a shaft drive to the centre differential on the right. That in turn meant that the driver's seat was slightly offset to the left.

For this car a magnesium-block DFV was made, although most of the testing was carried out with an engine from the original 1967 batch of DFVs...

Its entry for the 1969 British GP was withdrawn, Herd left to become a cofounder of March, and Duckworth abandoned his idea about redesigned the car.

[mikko-ville]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
.

Later there was the BDA (Belt Drive Arrangement) and its derivatives, which eliminated the problem of having to discard heads when they were damaged because it was no longer possible to keep the gear train in mesh to drive the cams. It was a strange one in its capacity, 1601cc.

BDA engines were used in Ford Escort RS 1600 rally cars. Ford already had winning car in under 1600cc class, Ford Escort 1600 TC, which used 1599cc twin cam engine. So in order to compete in bigger class, they made the BDA 1601cc, which was just over the limit.

[Ray Bell]

I think there has been a Cosworth 4WD pic posted somewhere... if not, send it to me and I'll put it up for you...

please email it to raybell@eisa.net.au.

With the extra weight in the transmission setup, it's no wonder they tried to bring the engine weight down with a bit of magnesium, and it's no wonder (bearing in mind the later difficulties with warming up etc) that they didn't rush them into production.

[Frank de Jong]

Some remarks about a few things I saw when I read this thread.
1) The Cosworth DFV and the HB have nothing in common. The DFV had a 90º angle between the cilinder blocks, the HB has a 75º angle. Bore and stroke were quite different also (although revealed, the early HB had something like 96 mm bore, in contrast to the 90 mm of the DFR. The HB had its debut in 1989 (Benetton, as Ford's premier team) Interestingly, the designations in the following years look like this:
1990: Series IV, Benetton
1991: Series V and VI, Benetton; Series IV, Jordan
1992: Series VI, Benetton; Series V, Fondmetal and Lotus
1993: Series VII and VIII, Benetton; Series VI, Lotus and Minardi; Series VII, McLaren, who were some sort of semi-works team, to the irritation of Benetton.
1994: Zetec-R for Benetton, a new engine with the same block angle but an even larger bore (about 100 mm, in contrast to the last HB, which had ca. 94 mm). Customer teams used the series VII or VIII, apart from the poorest customer Simtek, who had to do with a series VI.
1995 saw the introduction of a new capacity limit (3000 cc), so Ford modified the Zetec-R for Sauber, and built a (probably HB based) new customer engine named ED1. 1996 and 1997 those engines were modified to ED2, ED3, ED4 and ED5.

2) The "series" designation was, as already stated, also used in the early years of the DFV:
1968: series 8 (!)
1969: series 9
1970: series 10
1971: series 11
1972: series 12
The Cosworth FVA F2 engines had the same "series" designation.

3) Quiz time: which car did not have "Ford" on the cam covers of its DFV because the sponsors would'n have it?

Sorry for posting such a long and perhaps technical reply, but I just couldn't stop typing

[Ray Bell]

Williams when sponsored by Leyland?

[fines]

Could've been Williams in 1980, when they were sponsored by British Leyland!?

Thanks for the posting, Frank, it's really good info. Seems to me now that the 'Series' designations indeed refered to the production year.

[Ray, you start to annoy me, always beating me by minutes ]

[Ray Bell]

What about you?

You got in the thanks for the series numbers... didn't give me a chance!

I would have thought of that, I would...

...Ray walks away sulking...

[Frank de Jong]

Williams was the correct answer of course, 1979 in any case. I do't think dat the Leyland sponsorship had anything to do with that, it was mailly the arab-israel conflict which left the Arab world in some sort of anger regarding American companies like Ford.

[FLB]

Absolutely Frank...

Although Saudia principals showed up at Silverstone in 1979 in matching Chevrolet Corvettes.

If I remember correctly, the Arabs were angry at Hank the Second specifically for having publicly taken position in favor of Israël during the Six Day War.

There may be more about this in Lacey's Ford: the Men and the Machine.