45 replies to this topic

[AAGR]

One of the most frustrating 'might have beens' for me, was that I was due to be Denny Hulme's co-driver in the 1967 RAC rally - that being the event which was cancelled on the night before the start, because of the spreading outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. Barry Gill, who was THE SUN's motoring correspondent (they were the sponsors of the event) had set up that deal.

Jim Clark and Graham Hill had competed in the 1966 event. But which other F1 drivers competed in the rally, over the years ?

[arttidesco]

Derek Bell (Vauxhall Astra) and Derek Warwick (Subaru) in the mid to late 80's and I'm not sure Martin Brundle has not tried it, all after their F1 careers were over of course.

Edited by arttidesco, 07 February 2012 - 15:37.

[alansart]

Derek Bell (Vauxhall Astra) and Derek Warwick (Subaru) in the mid to late 80's and I'm not sure Martin Brundle has not tried it, all after their F1 careers were over of course.

Brundle tried it and crashed quite heavily. There's a You Tube video around somewhere.

Found it:

Edited by alansart, 07 February 2012 - 15:39.

[arttidesco]

Vic Elford in '64 and Jim Clark in '66 :-)

Did Kimi R do Rally Wales or Rally GB or whatever it is marketed as these day's during his gardening leave with the Red Bull Citroen team ?

[arttidesco]

Ken Wharton '56 hard to believe Stirling Moss never gave the RAC a whirl ?

[AAGR]

Surely Les Leston (who drove the P25 BRM, as I recall) also drove for the Sunbeam Rapier 'works' team on the event ....?

[mikeC]

Going back to the days when drivers did everything, I suppose you can add Cuth Harrison to the list.

[RS2000]

As to the "why" in the thread title, I imagine that Graham Hill on the cancelled 67 event was, after his lack of enthusiasm in 66, there because he was told to be by Ford (who were paying for his Lotus F1 seat). It was interesting that his "co-driver" for 67 was someone capable of a better forest performance than him, unlike his journalist co-driver of 66.
Alternatively, I supose you could claim he was only there because Jim Clark wasn't (having run out of limited days in UK to avoid tax). Perhaps GG could confirm whether JC was ever even in the frame for 67?
As for Denny Hulme, maybe DCN knows whether he really wanted to be there or just liked the financial incentive AAGR mentions! When I called AAGR brave to take this ride in another thread, I wasn't sure whether I meant it would have been a frustrating disappointment or an "antipodean" ending (with a roll bar by then?).

[RS2000]

Vic Elford in '64

and every year from 60 to 68?

[Tim Murray]

Gerard Larrousse

[Alan Cox]

Tiff Needell. I think Graham Hill actually drove in the RAC in a Riley as early as 1958, the year of his GP debut.

[Nick Wa]

I think Moss did an RAC, green XK120 fhc, a Brighton finish, guess 1952.

[Fred Gallagher]

A certain B.C.Ecclestone (and surely there can;'t be two!) started the 1955 event in a Jaguar and as I recall was quickest at the Cadwell Park test.

Fred

[arttidesco]

and every year from 60 to 68?

I was going through Google pix and only '64 came up but I suspected Vic did more than the one

[glyn parham]

Surely it is well recorded that Vic used rallying (at which he was rather good) to get into racing as the perennial problem of funding was an issue.

Glyn

[RS2000]

Surely it is well recorded that Vic used rallying (at which he was rather good) to get into racing as the perennial problem of funding was an issue.
Glyn

and used rally co-driving to get into the driver's seat.
He did race a Mini first - but some might say only to much the same extent James Hunt did.
He was in a position to win the RAC several times over if things had gone differently, despite claiming to dislike it. At one point when he was leading it in 68 I saw all 4 wheels of his works 911 looking somewhat splayed. You didn't see the Scania Vabis cars looking quite the same and maybe that was the point at which Porsche accepted rough road rallying was a bit different.

[RS2000]

Surely Les Leston (who drove the P25 BRM, as I recall) also drove for the Sunbeam Rapier 'works' team on the event ....?

With Peter Jopp in 59 - just in front of another Rapier of E. ("Codger"?) Malkin and AAGR (what did the E. stand for?). Graham Hill was also a late substitute in 59 for Jeff Uren (ill) in a works Zephyr according to the records I have.

Edited by RS2000, 07 February 2012 - 19:55.

[AAGR]

'Codger' Malkin was Colin Malkin's father. I knew what the 'E' stood for, but he never used it, and said that if I told anyone what it stood for, he would have to kill me ....

'Codger' was quick, but had to retire a year later with health problerms. Almost immediately, I sat alongside his son Colin in one or two Coventry-based club events, but then left the really brave co-drivers to sit alongside Colin as/when he became famous ....

[arttidesco]

I knew what the 'E' stood for, but he never used it, and said that if I told anyone what it stood for, he would have to kill me ....

Unlikely to be Ermintrude or Ethelberger but could it be as bad as Ethelwulf ?

[RS2000]

I think Graham Hill actually drove in the RAC in a Riley as early as 1958, the year of his GP debut.

A105 on the list I have but it might have changed before the start.

Edited by RS2000, 07 February 2012 - 21:07.

[RS2000]

Unlikely to be Ermintrude or Ethelberger but could it be as bad as Ethelwulf ?

It couldn't have been Endeavour or he'd have been in a red 2.4 Mk1. Edgar sounds familiar.

Son Barry, brother of Colin, was no slouch either and scared me on 68 RAC powering sideways on to the main road out of Dovey in a well-rolled Mk1 Lotus Cortina. Even John Brown was looking quiet alongside him...

I suppose we should write Dyfi, not Dovey, in these politically correct days...

Edited by RS2000, 07 February 2012 - 21:18.

[Amphicar]

How about Leo Kinnunen? I know he only started one F1 race (1974 Swedish GP) but I reckon that qualifies!

[arttidesco]

How about Leo Kinnunen? I know he only started one F1 race (1974 Swedish GP) but I reckon that qualifies!

In a FIAT 124 Abarth on the same year he drove in the Swedish GP no less !

[Alan Cox]

A105 on the list I have but it might have changed before the start.

I stand corrected

[Nick Wa]

I suppose we should write Dyfi, not Dovey, in these politically correct days...

So "Motoring News" was the fore runner of politically correctness in the '60s. Whilst Gerry was Verglas (ddua hiâ) all reports recorded the exploits of Aluns and Dafyds in Dyfi.

Edited by Nick Wa, 08 February 2012 - 03:08.

[Graham Gauld]

As to the "why" in the thread title, I imagine that Graham Hill on the cancelled 67 event was, after his lack of enthusiasm in 66, there because he was told to be by Ford (who were paying for his Lotus F1 seat). It was interesting that his "co-driver" for 67 was someone capable of a better forest performance than him, unlike his journalist co-driver of 66.
Alternatively, I supose you could claim he was only there because Jim Clark wasn't (having run out of limited days in UK to avoid tax). Perhaps GG could confirm whether JC was ever even in the frame for 67?
As for Denny Hulme, maybe DCN knows whether he really wanted to be there or just liked the financial incentive AAGR mentions! When I called AAGR brave to take this ride in another thread, I wasn't sure whether I meant it would have been a frustrating disappointment or an "antipodean" ending (with a roll bar by then?).

jim Clark never mentioned any idea of doing the RAC Rally in 1967 because by then he was more and more in demand for promotional things. Reference the 1966 RAC I had breakfast with him and Brian Melia on the second day of the Rally and Jim was gracious enough to say that he thought Brian would have been quicker than him on the early stages of the rally but Briian laughed that off and said that he was so impressed by Clark's driving but conceded that he had helped Clark to understand the sliding technique. Jimmy went on to say that he was happy to have a professional co-driver unlike Graham Hill who he thought was daft to take a Journalist ( David Benson of the Daily Express) with him in the Mini. He felt if you were going to do the event you had to do it professionally.
I have attached a photo of Clark and Melia arriving at the Bathgate control on the second morning of the RAC in 1966



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[arttidesco]

Surely Les Leston (who drove the P25 BRM, as I recall) also drove for the Sunbeam Rapier 'works' team on the event ....?

Apparently Les shared a Ford Falcon with Peter Jopp on the RAC in 1963, not sure who was behind the wheel, love to see a photo of that Falcon galavanting through the forest stages !

[Peter Darley]

[quote name='Graham Gauld' date='Feb 8 2012, 10:12' post='5516320']
jim Clark never mentioned any idea of doing the RAC Rally in 1967 because by then he was more and more in demand for promotional things. Reference the 1966 RAC I had breakfast with him and Brian Melia on the second day of the Rally and Jim was gracious enough to say that he thought Brian would have been quicker than him on the early stages of the rally but Brian laughed that off and said that he was so impressed by Clark's driving but conceded that he had helped Clark to understand the sliding technique. Jimmy went on to say that he was happy to have a professional co-driver unlike Graham Hill who he thought was daft to take a Journalist ( David Benson of the Daily Express) with him in the Mini. He felt if you were going to do the event you had to do it professionally.


I thought Graham's co-driver was Maxwell Boyd .

[RS2000]

I thought Graham's co-driver was Maxwell Boyd .

Yes it was. He'd got him lost on the approach to Puddletown Forest (SS4). Someone who was later to become a CofC for a round of the British Hillclimb Championship told me he encountered them and set them on the right road - at which NGH told him: "You're a gentleman, Sir!".

The car, GRX309D, is still around, probably more original than most "ex-works Cooper Ss".

SS4 was where Roger Clark's clean sweep of all the stages ended with an "off" that did for the rad and then the head gasket. Only the other day I found out that was probably down to using an "experimental" diff. He might have been even quicker on the first three without it...

David Benson was one car in front of NGH, in a Triumph 2000 with John Sprinzell. The first few seeds (66 and 67) were in a category described as something like "entries for the publicity of motorsport", which included the F1 drivers.

Edited by RS2000, 08 February 2012 - 14:37.

[cheapracer]

Tiff Needell.

Surely there must be a line between calling someone a "Formula 1 Driver" and someone who drove a Formula 1 car once for 1/3 of a race from back row on the grid .....

[Eric Dunsdon]

Ken Wharton '56 hard to believe Stirling Moss never gave the RAC a whirl ?

Slightly off topic I know, but Stirling Moss and Lance Macklin drove an Aston-Martin DB2 in the 1951 Daily Express 1000 Mile Rally and quite rightly, treated it as a sort of British Mille Miglia by seeing how quickly they could do each stage. They lost any points gained by messing up the final reversing tests completely. Racing drivers eh?.

[Graham Gauld]

Yes it was. He'd got him lost on the approach to Puddletown Forest (SS4). Someone who was later to become a CofC for a round of the British Hillclimb Championship told me he encountered them and set them on the right road - at which NGH told him: "You're a gentleman, Sir!".

The car, GRX309D, is still around, probably more original than most "ex-works Cooper Ss".

SS4 was where Roger Clark's clean sweep of all the stages ended with an "off" that did for the rad and then the head gasket. Only the other day I found out that was probably down to using an "experimental" diff. He might have been even quicker on the first three without it...

David Benson was one car in front of NGH, in a Triumph 2000 with John Sprinzell. The first few seeds (66 and 67) were in a category described as something like "entries for the publicity of motorsport", which included the F1 drivers.

My head is hung in shame.Max Boyd was a much more reliable choice. Jim Clark was not a fan of the Daily Express probably hence Benson's name coming up. ( The reason was the Scottish Daily Express staked out his farm in the days after the von Trips accident)

[Graham Gauld]

Yes it was. He'd got him lost on the approach to Puddletown Forest (SS4). Someone who was later to become a CofC for a round of the British Hillclimb Championship told me he encountered them and set them on the right road - at which NGH told him: "You're a gentleman, Sir!".

The car, GRX309D, is still around, probably more original than most "ex-works Cooper Ss".

SS4 was where Roger Clark's clean sweep of all the stages ended with an "off" that did for the rad and then the head gasket. Only the other day I found out that was probably down to using an "experimental" diff. He might have been even quicker on the first three without it...

David Benson was one car in front of NGH, in a Triumph 2000 with John Sprinzell. The first few seeds (66 and 67) were in a category described as something like "entries for the publicity of motorsport", which included the F1 drivers.

My head is hung in shame.Max Boyd was a much more reliable choice. Jim Clark was not a fan of the Daily Express probably hence Benson's name coming up. ( The reason was the Scottish Daily Express staked out his farm in the days after the von Trips accident)

[Amphicar]

I know it isn't called the RAC Rally anymore but the Wales Rally of Great Britain is the current incarnation of it - and Kimi Raikkonen competed in it in 2010, finishing 8th.

[RS2000]

So "Motoring News" was the fore runner of politically correctness in the '60s. Whilst Gerry was Verglas (ddua hiâ) all reports recorded the exploits of Aluns and Dafyds in Dyfi.

Gerry was certainly ahead of his time for a UK national publication! He eventually won that war and today every rally calls it Dyfi and it is Dyfi on the Ordnance Survey map too.
Then, both the OS and Jack Kemsley's RAC Rally called it Dovey. I can't track the change as I don't have the 73 and 74 RAC Roadbooks but it was Dovey (one stage) on the 72 RAC and Dyfi 1 and 2 (two stages) on the 75 RAC. In 77 it became Dyfi and Gartheiniog, as it is today.
I went looking for the crossing point over the yellow last year - and found a "new to me" road out to the north (but my wife has still not forgiven the fact it had 8 gates to open and close...)

[Morris S]

Talking of F1 drivers and the RAC Rally I wondered if Peter could explain the story behind Stirling Moss pictured in the Mini .......

http://www.coteriepr...p...=4873&cc=GB

[AAGR]

Talking of F1 drivers and the RAC Rally I wondered if Peter could explain the story behind Stirling Moss pictured in the Mini .......

http://www.coteriepr...p...=4873&cc=GB

Is this even a rally car ? No stickers, no identification, nothing ....

GRAHAM R

[Peter Darley]

Is this even a rally car ? No stickers, no identification, nothing ....

GRAHAM R

Well done that man !

The photo has the wrong tag, which will be rectified. The photo was taken at Silverstone, and Stirling had just arrived in the Mini to drive in a Sports Car race, but had picked up a stone through the windscreen just outside the Circuit.

[ensign14]

Surely there must be a line between calling someone a "Formula 1 Driver" and someone who drove a Formula 1 car once for 1/3 of a race from back row on the grid .....

No, although I think there is a distinction between someone who goes harry flatters in a Formula 1 car (a racer) and someone like Jean-Denis Deletraz (a driver).

[arttidesco]

Surely there must be a line between calling someone a "Formula 1 Driver" and someone who drove a Formula 1 car once for 1/3 of a race from back row on the grid .....

Someone who started even from the back of the grid Tiffany is, on the other hand I'm still not sure BCE ever did start but I believe he may have taken part in an official practice session, but the evidence even for that has yet to be shown in a photograph

[Doug Nye]

Re Jimmy's RAC Rally drive alongside Brian Melia - Brian told me that they came down to one corner in the forests which either he saw late or which he suddenly realised that his instruction to Jimmy had been misheard. He said "I bawled out RIGHT! And almost before I'd got to the 'T' I felt the car already responding, Jimmy's reaction and input was SOOOO fast...". He reckoned it had been a pleasure and privilege to navigate for him. Now there is something I would have given my right arm to do... Respect to AAGR for his long career in the hot seat.

DCN

[garyfrogeye]

I seem to remember that Paul Hawkins did a GP in Afrika (Kenya?) and starting over here in John Sprinzel's stable, I would assume that he would have driven one of the Sprites in a rally or two

[arttidesco]

I seem to remember that Paul Hawkins did a GP in Afrika (Kenya?) and starting over here in John Sprinzel's stable, I would assume that he would have driven one of the Sprites in a rally or two

Second photo down with Liz Patten 1960

[RS2000]

Well done that man !

The photo has the wrong tag, which will be rectified. The photo was taken at Silverstone, and Stirling had just arrived in the Mini to drive in a Sports Car race, but had picked up a stone through the windscreen just outside the Circuit.

Another clue is that even then International Rallies required a laminated screen (which this one clearly wasn't). Lesser UK stage events soon did too.

[cheapracer]

I just remembered Derek Bell ran a couple of RAC's.

How about RAC driver's who have driven a F1 car...

Henri Toivonen tested a March in 1982.
Hannu Mikkola tested for Arrows in 1984.
Colin McRae tested a Jordan 195.
Tommi Mäkinnen tested a Williams FW20.
Petter Solberg tested a Ferrari 248 F1.
Carlos Sainz tested a Renault in 2005.
Sébastien Loeb tested first a Renault in 2007, then a Red Bull in 2008.
Dani Sordo tested a Renault F1.

[Jagracer]

Hi, please bear with me on this as I'm getting long in the tooth now, but in 1976 I was Chief Mechanic for Dicksons of Perth who were running 2 Atlantic cars. Dickson's were a Major Datsun/Nisson agent in Scotland as well as other agencies they ran. Sometime in mid 76 there was a Rally held for Rally drivers with F1 and single seater drivers as co drivers taking turns at driving on various stages
I was called down to the Nisson Garage in Perth from my Racing shop to finish off building a Datsun Bluebird rally car, it was a 2 door coupe almost complete & had been built by Datsun but not quite finished, some how Norman Dickson had wangled this car & got an entry for this Rally with James Hunt as his co driver, I fitted all the Weber Carbs & uprated Camshaft to it & road tested it, found that the Clutch wasn't strong enough to take the power so a special clutch was found & I fitted that at the last minute.
Norman drove off in the car the next day to start the Rally, never saw James Hunt at all Nisson were supplying the Rally Crew & I wasn't needed.
Norman came back 4 days later & reported that the car had gone really well and was lying 6th overall when Hunt lost it big time on one of the stages & stuffed it into a tree I never saw the car again as it went back to Nisson

Maybe some of you might remember that Rally Cheers Phil Bradford