9 replies to this topic

[anbeck]

S2000 rules and similar production based rule sets have been with us since Touring Cars exist - or probably even the other way round, first came the production based series and then came rules to prevent competitors to run prototypes. The idea to not build prototypes (like the DTM) makes the series less expensive and closer to what John Doe is driving. So far I get it.

But when you look at the WTCC, for example, I have the impression that, while the silhouette makes me think of the road car, the inside is quite different from what you see on the road. Is there any part left in such a car that I might have in my production car (if I had one...)?

How is such a WTCC-car built? Do they really start with taking apart a production car? Does anybody have pictures or videos of how these cars are built?
And how many parts are actually taken over? Is it a modern ship of Theseus, where part by part is replaced until it's an all-new car?

Or is this a huge misunderstanding, and they don't really start from a car that resembles a production car, because the 2500 car edition that the S2000 car has to be based on is already quite far from the car we can buy?

[V8 Fireworks]

I believe that Group C or Group A in the 1980s would be the most recent time that (more likely privateers) would start with an actual road car (sometimes an ex-taxi for sedans or for sportscars an ex demonstrator RX7 for example) and rebuild it into a touring car. Is that right?

S2000 rules and similar production based rule sets have been with us since Touring Cars exist - or probably even the other way round, first came the production based series and then came rules to prevent competitors to run prototypes. The idea to not build prototypes (like the DTM) makes the series less expensive and closer to what John Doe is driving. So far I get it.

Is that true though? At least with prototypes they can demand that everything is the same.

S2000 rules and similar production based rule sets have been with us since Touring Cars exist - or probably even the other way round, first came the production based series and then came rules to prevent competitors to run prototypes. The idea to not build prototypes (like the DTM) makes the series less expensive and closer to what John Doe is driving. So far I get it.

Is this true though? If an Evo is the super track day car that John race fan drives to the track, then why don't the touring cars have super duper electronic diffs and other road-relevant goodies... why doesn't he sit down to watch a defacto "Evo vs M3 cup" with road relevant cars (naturally being dominated by the "best" touring type cars)?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 February 2012 - 05:13.

[KOMORI]

Touring cars world wide are more or less full house scratch built chassis with the only relation to the "make" being the name, badge and general configuration of the model they are based on.

[V8 Fireworks]

Is there any part left in such a car that I might have in my production car (if I had one...)?

Surely only the engine block (maybe) aside from cosmetic parts of the car like the dashboard etc??
The transmission would be different (obviously), the radiator would be different, airbox would be different, all the hydraulics would be different surely, dry sump, different exhaust, different ecu, race fuel tank etc etc I think.

My understanding is that usually touring car rules require that the suspension is of a similar design to the road car, but that the production versions can be replaced with custom fabricated items??

[Brother Fox]

I heard a third hand story from a team member explaining the process relating to Aussie V8 touring cars to corporate sponsors. It went something like:

"We take a standard car, take off all the panels, bonnet and boot - then throw the rest away"

[Kucki]

It would be so cool and so cheap to race cars the way they are production wise, with only some minor changes for safety.

It would open up the possiblity to do motorsport to a much bigger part of society, instead of only for the super wealthy.

[se7en_24]

It would be so cool and so cheap to race cars the way they are production wise, with only some minor changes for safety.

It would open up the possiblity to do motorsport to a much bigger part of society, instead of only for the super wealthy.

There are (and always have been) loads of race series like that though be they one make series like Minis/Lotus Elise/MX5's or mixed fields with different classes. I myself used to race in a one make series that produced a few drivers that went onto BTCC or other higher disciplines.

Edited by se7en_24, 09 February 2012 - 14:56.

[Gridfire]

There are (and always have been) loads of race series like that though be they one make series like Minis/Lotus Elise/MX5's or mixed fields with different classes. I myself used to race in a one make series that produced a few drivers that went onto BTCC or other higher disciplines.

Indeed there are - I was looking into participating in the MR2 Championship which has very strict rules on modifications - basically they're not allowed at all, and each engine is checked and sealed by the race steward before being allowed to race. Basically this means buying a totally standard MR2 - either an 80s Mk1, or a 90s Mk2, (you can get a good example for between £1000 and £2000), fit a race seat and rollcage, replace all the fluids, filters, pads and - if necessary clutch and belts, and voila, one racing vehicle, identical to the rest of the grid. Oh, you'll also need a thousand tyres.

These series are just not very glamourous, because they're (relatively) cheap. All the series that run lookalike cars such as DTM, BTCC etc, are ultra expensive cash-laden series with polished cars and garages with grid-girls and celebs wandering around. Is it any wonder why they get all the attention?

[pingu666]

they used to take the "shell" or chassis of a production car then strip it, and rebuild it from there

[Red17]

Quite odd that this thread comes up this point, I just happened to catch a video from the 1994 season of the ADAC STW and those cars looked much more «production» than the cars in WTCC.
Same can be said for the 87 WTCC, that felt like a true WTCC. (saddly terminated out of fear)

My understanding too is that the S2000 are essentially built from scratch competion spec cars with strict rules in components. But in my view they are essentially cheaper prototypes. If S2000 were so easy to make you would not see competitors buying second hand S2000.