20 replies to this topic

[John B]

Congrats on the new forum Christaan and Atlas. Here's a thread I put on the Comments forum a couple of weeks ago, maybe it's more appropriate here.....


Aside from setups, what do the great drivers do on the track to distinguish themselves
from the rest of the field? Prost had a style which made him go very fast without abusing
the tires/fuel (i think it involved turning/breaking into the corner early and getting on the
power early). I also once read that Senna blipped the throttle while braking (maybe this
was a turbo era thing?), and that Mansell was exceptional at carrying speed through fast
corners. Thoughts welcome...here's your chance give some insight into your favorite(s).


[This message has been edited by John B (edited 08-10-1999).]

[Christiaan]

I have also wondered about that. In the end I think that a very good driver must be able to vary his driving style depending on the charactoristics of the car.

For example, if I had a car with bullet acceleration and poor handling I could enter a corner slowly and exit fast. On the other hand, if I had poor accleleration and breat hangling, I could risk entering the corner fast. The speed at which I enter the corner would affect my braking distances, gear changing and throttling and perhaps also my ideal driving line. So. I think that an expert would not have a particular driving style that charactorises him, rather an adaptive driving style that makes him faster.

[This message has been edited by Christiaan (edited 08-10-1999).]

[Zoe]

The Senna-esque throttle blipping was in fact to keep the turbo spinning. With a turbo engine you need revs revs revs. So, if you brake and shift down, usually the engine revs will drop, therefore you take every opportunity to keep the turbo spinning. YOu can check this even with some road cars when standing at a traffic light. Just rev the engine before you actually take off and you will have lots more power than without that trick.

Concerning driving styles: The most visible difference between drivers preferences is whether they prefer an over- or understeering car. A good example is the Mansell / Berger pairing at Ferrari: Mansell preferred oversteer, whereas Berger needed a pushy car. That made the set-up of the cars quite difficult! In my opinion one can approach the limit of a car closer in an oversteering one, however if you step over it you loose it, whereas with a pushing car you can recover a car better.

Just my two cents...

Zoe

[Christiaan]

You bring up a question I have always wanted to ask. Do you get better accelration if you over rev the engine while your clutch is depressed. Say you are doing 4000rpm in 3rd gear and you depress the clutch while flooring the accelerator. You then rev to say 7000rpm whilst engaging 4th and then you ease off the clutch. Is it faster than normal gearchanges (done without overrevving)? I have seen rally drivers change gears both ways with no visible reason for doing so. You might burn your clutch, but do you go faster?

[Vin]

As far as know, most people don't like to drive a car set up (or designed for) M.Schumacher as he tends to have a lot of oversteer. His method is to get the front of the car pointed in the right direction early and try to control any problems that the rear might have. This is apparently why Schumacher slides a bit more than other drivers (at least when he is on the limit), This might be a throwback to his karting days, I don't know, but I heard this was one of the main reasons that Eddie Irvine was signed as he like cars set up in a similar manner (albeit not to the same extreme) and so could help out in testing far more. It also probably partly explains the difficulties Berger and Alesi had in the Championship winning Benetton.

[IndyIan]

Christiaan,
I have used your shifting idea with my dirt bike,
I just backed the throttle down to half for the shifts, so when I pulled in the clutch the engine revved up a bit more as I shifted up to the next gear, and then dropped the clutch. I think this helped acceleration a bit because of the engines extra momentum at the higher revs. Keep in mind my dirt bike was a 200cc two stroke with a sequential gearbox on gravel so it was extremely durable.(when upshifting on dirt the clutch is optional)
Doing the same thing in a road car on pavement might result in diaster.
1. Over revving a car engine could be very expensive.
2. The syncros in the transmission will not enjoy matching the gears to increased revs with an up shift. This may increase your time spent shifting.
3. This method would be hard on the clutch, transmission, motormounts and drive train when the engines extra momentum is transmitted in an instant.

i think rally cars can get away with this because they are on dirt and spin the tires instead of breaking parts.

[JHH]

Somebody once pointed out to me that there was a difference in the way drivers position themselves in the cockpit. Damon Hill, for example, adopts a reclining position like most F1 drivers. Alesi, on the other hand, seems to hunch forward with his shoulders and helmet closer to the controls.

The positions that these two adopt may be a manifestation of their styles with the car. After all, Alesi is known for his aggression just as Hill is known for being smooth and applying as little input as possible.

Just a thought… Cool forum.

>--James Harold--<


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" I have no interest in any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend
to go in harm's way." Captain J. P. Jones, US Navy - January 16, 1777

[Limey]

John B

Your comments about Prost and his cornering technique are correct so much so that when Keke Rosberg was his partner on the McLaren team, he couldn't 'drive' the car. Rosberg had to have his car set up so that he could 'throw' it around and this enabled him to improve his finishing positions. Hans Stuck was another driver who had a hang it out. style like Rosberg.

[John B]

Good comments from all. How about the adjustments Prost had to go through from 1980 to 1993 - ground effect/normal aspirated to ground effect/turbo to flat bottom/turbo to flat bottom/normal aspirated V10 to the 1993 V10 "computer car" with active suspension, auto gearbox, etc.

[SlowDrivr]

Mentioning active suspension brings up a question.

How would driving a car with active suspension differ from one without it? Obviously the setup would be vastly different, but would it need to be driven any differently?

[PDA]

F1 drivers do not use the clutch when changing gear. The clutch is only used for standing starts. When the driver presses the up button, the electronics reduce the engine revs to a figure compatible with the next gear. When changing down, it automatically increses revs to match the next gear down. If the driver attempts to change down at a speed which would result in the engine overrevving, it refuses to process the order. It will not process a request until the speed has dropped to a safe level. This is one reason why there are fewer engine blow ups now.Alain Prost has called for the return of manual gearchange to increase driver contribution and , maybe, provide more opportunities for overtaking.

[tak]

With an actively suspended car, the car can do things that physically don't seem possible--for example, the car can lean into the corner--very advantageous from a tire camber point of view.
The other benefit of the active car was that it holds the aerodynamic platform (the chassis) in the optimum position regardless of what the wheels are doing. From the drivers point of view, an active car requires great faith--a belief that you will always have downforce. This was reportedly Mansells biggest advantage over Patrese in the 92 Williams.

[tak]

The biggest asset of the great drivers is their ability to think about and react to what's happening in the race. Before refueling, Prost was famous for pit strategy. If he was involved in a battle near the front (but not leading), he would pit earlier than his competitors. This put him onto clear track where he could lap faster without abusing his equipment.
In one of his races Jim Clark inexplicably slowed before a high speed blind corner. When he came around the cornder he found a car partially blocking the track. After the race a reporter asked him how he had known to slow down to avoid the accident. Clark replied that he smelled "freshly mown grass", and figured there was a car blocking the track. Fangio mysteriously slowed in similar circumstances to avoid a certain crash. Asked afterward, he replied that the croud looked dark--which meant they were NOT looking at HIM, but rather at the exit of the corner, so something had to be wrong!
In the 91 Belgian grand prix, MS pitted a couple of turns after being passed by his team mate Brundle. It turned out to be exactly the right time as the track was drying and won his first GP. How did he know when to pit? He saw the blistering rears on Brundles car and figured his tires were in the same shape!

[ket]

Wow! I like the bit about Clark and Fangio! I have heard about Fangio's noticing the crowd, but Clark's feat must be written into the book of legend in F1/GP. Funny how some drivers today can even missed their team's sign plate totally. I heard Moss was one driver who can drive any car fast, whether it has oversteer or understeer, he just instinctively adapts to the car, but that also made him a lousy test driver because he couldn't give objective feedback.

[Christiaan]

Slowdrvr,

Active suspension would increase cornering ability thus allow the driver flexibility on braking distances and racing line.

[This message has been edited by Christiaan (edited 08-11-1999).]

[Achim Kuhl]

Hi there!

Being a good test-pilot is one thing which helps M.Schumacher developing his car. Even during heavy g-forces he is still able to radio his impressions about his car. Like in aviation this gives great data. But even Schu has his limits. Being invited on a ride on an MRCA Tornado of Geschwader Boelke he asked the pilot to give everything. F1 drivers may be used to g-forces that high, but not in every direction. So even Schu went green using the bag(confirmed by service-technican). So fitness is damned important.

Speed of reflexes is another thing. Alesi is reported to have the fastest one, sadly he is a bad developer. I also admire Juan Montoya catching his Kart in some realy tight situations this season.

Rally drivers: Walter Roerl did show that spectacular isn't the same as fast. He always tried to go as neutral as possible through a corner, especialy with the Audi Quatro. Because it had a turbo-engine he also braked it with his left foot. Additional handling fun was a system with two hand-brakes because the four-wheel drive didn't allow braking both rear tyres so they could choose which rear to break.

Clutch: On Icespeedway Egon Mueller improved his way of starting reping up the engine and slowly releasing the clutch. The other bikes got away faster but he kept up his initial acceleration and usualy overtook the field before first corner. On the other hand: a Porsche 911 turbo does not allow this things. The clutch will burn as sure as there is Amen in church.

I've seen studies on Mansell's corner technique. He used lines which usualy are not called ideal. But he adpted to the situation being able to come faster out of a corner and using this aditional speed for an overtake in the following straight. Think he did that when he had the chance to drive the Williams in Australia (remembered that right?)

Achim

[ket]

Achim,
Why is that a 4wd rally car like the Quadtro cannot have one hand brake operating on both rear wheels?

[silver]

In Suzuka 1995 F1 reflexes were tested with the finger method: when drivers saw/felt something they had to move a finger.

Fastest reflexes of them all had Mika Hakkinen. Normally time 0.10 sec is considered to be extremely good. Hakkinens reaction time was 0.07 sec.

You can see Mikas reflexes when he drives aswell.

His cars setup is always extremely stiff which makes car very fast of fast corners but extremely unforgiving to drive.



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Only two things are infinite; universe and human stupidity; and I am not sure about the former
-Albert Einstein-

[Achim Kuhl]

Hi Ket!

If I remember right the Audi Quatro had differentials between rear- and frontaxle and the usual ones between both tyres on one axle. So if you tried to brake the whole axle it would be very hard on the brakes, especially if you're still on the power. Breaking only one tyre you got both possible differentials working putting not that much stress on the used brake. In racing you usualy don't have totaly free differentials (like on my normal car) they always have a percentage of (what's the word in english?)

Hope I got that together somehow.

[Zoe]

Achim, what you mean will be the limited slip differential (LSD). I once had a Subaru 4WD, with three diffs (you could lock the central one), which resulted in funny behaviour when you pulled the handbrake, but it was possible. The brakes were pretty new then, so no worry about overuse of disks.

Zoe

[Achim Kuhl]

Hi!

That wasn't the thing I'm looking for. It's the amount of diference allowed between both sides of the diferential. Normaly one wheel can spin and the other doesn't.

Handbrake:
If I remember Walter-Roehrl's explanation correctly the brake would not have lasted very long being build conventional. Those Audi Quatro Sport where one of the biggest monsters ever in rallye sport so I didn't wonder why there was a special solution for a special car. One other thing comes to my mind. WR also said, that this was asymetric and force a 4WD better to swing out his back in the desired direction without turning the steering wheel first. (oh boy, this must be some years ago I've read this)

Achim


[This message has been edited by Achim Kuhl (edited 08-16-1999).]