76 replies to this topic

[harrypitts]

I'm just wondering when McLaren became known as a British team, as oppose to a New Zealand team? Founded by Bruce McLaren, with 3 New Zealand drivers in the first years, (Bruce, Denny Hulme and Chris Amon). When Bruce died, the team was then run by American Teddy Mayer, until a merger with Ron Dennis in 1981 (was that the moment?).

Relevant question - when did team nationalities become relevant at grand prix, i.e. playing team anthem during podium ceremony's? Maybe this was after 1970 or 1981? The issue of the British anthem being played mistakenly for Red Bull comes to mind.

McLaren still uses a Kiwi for it's logo. For that reason, coupled with the team history and as a Kiwi, I will start campaigning for the team to recognise its proper nationality, who's with me?

[rdebourbon]

Probably when everything moved to the UK and they started playing the UK national anthem for victories.. Plus having at least 1 British driver in recent years has done a lot to cement that opinion..

[sumpthy]

I'm pretty sure after the merger with Project 4.

[jrg19]

In 1981 McLaren merged with Ron Dennis' Project Four Racing; Dennis took over as team principal and shortly after organised a buyout of the original McLaren shareholders to take full control of the team.

[CrashTestDummy]

I'm just wondering when McLaren became known as a British team, as oppose to a New Zealand team? Founded by Bruce McLaren, with 3 New Zealand drivers in the first years, (Bruce, Denny Hulme and Chris Amon). When Bruce died, the team was then run by American Teddy Mayer, until a merger with Ron Dennis in 1981 (was that the moment?).

Relevant question - when did team nationalities become relevant at grand prix, i.e. playing team anthem during podium ceremony's? Maybe this was after 1970 or 1981? The issue of the British anthem being played mistakenly for Red Bull comes to mind.

McLaren still uses a Kiwi for it's logo. For that reason, coupled with the team history and as a Kiwi, I will start campaigning for the team to recognise its proper nationality, who's with me?

It always was. McLaren team raced under British racing license from day one. Founded and based in UK.

Edited by CrashTestDummy, 10 February 2012 - 16:54.

[sumpthy]

Though Wikipedia has them listed as British team from their first season. Not sure if this is an error on Wikipedia's behalf or if they were always registered in Britain.

http://en.wikipedia....mula_One_season

EDIT: CrashTestDummy beat me to it.

Edited by sumpthy, 10 February 2012 - 16:55.

[Fastcake]

They've always been a British team. Bruce may of been a Kiwi, but he set up in Britain with British engineers, and never tried to claim his team was meant to be representing New Zealand.

As far as I know, anthems have been involved since the very early days of motor racing - nationality meant more then than it does now, according to what I have learnt anyway.

[muramasa]

McLaren still uses a Kiwi for it's logo.

is that right? never noticed!

[harrypitts]

It always was. McLaren team raced under British racing license from day one. Founded and based in UK.

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

[fieraku]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

You make it sound as if they had to face a firing squad.
Found that comment funny,sorry for OT.

[Fastcake]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

Their first win was with Bruce, so they would of listened to both anyway

Nicer way to do it compared to the modern practice of building a team here and registering it from where the money comes from. Bruce was apparently perfectly happy with having a British team.

[Arry2k]

McLaren still uses a Kiwi for it's logo.

is that right? never noticed!

I had always assumed it was a stylised Marlboro chevron.


OLD


NEW

Unless I am getting the wrong end of the stick here.

[Lemans]

I had always assumed it was a stylised Marlboro chevron.


OLD


NEW

Unless I am getting the wrong end of the stick here.

Good post. A lot of people don't realize that when McLaren were sponsored by Marlboro, the florescent red areas on the car were not the Marlboro logo, they were in fact the red chevrons from the old logo posted above.

[Fastcake]

The original logo was this one:



Only used during the early years, when it was just a very small team. How things change

[Vitesse2]

They've always been a British team. Bruce may of been a Kiwi, but he set up in Britain with British engineers, and never tried to claim his team was meant to be representing New Zealand.

The first "McLaren" (a sports car originally built by Roger Penske on a Cooper F1 chassis and previously known as the Xerex Special) was painted in what was described as "garden gate green" - the nearest they could find to BRG on a Sunday! Unlike Brabham, whose cars usually raced in Australian green and gold, I don't think Bruce was too bothered about national labels, although there is a nod to his homeland in that the predominantly white M2B of 1966 and the red M5A of 1967 did have a black central stripe. "McLaren orange" was adopted in 1968.

As far as I know, anthems have been involved since the very early days of motor racing - nationality meant more then than it does now, according to what I have learnt anyway.

Absolutely. It goes back to the very earliest days, when Grand Prix racing was a matter of national pride - especially for the French, for whom it would gradually become a matter of national humiliation ;)

Edited by Vitesse2, 10 February 2012 - 17:32.

[HopkinsonF1]

The current 'McLaren' team isn't really McLaren at all, but Project 4. When Ron Dennis's team bought McLaren out they adopted the more marketable name, but really the team is much closer to Ron's than Bruce's.

[Vitesse2]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English British anthem?

Fixed it for you

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

Pre-Bernie, it wasn't quite that organised ...

[CrashTestDummy]

The current 'McLaren' team isn't really McLaren at all, but Project 4. When Ron Dennis's team bought McLaren out they adopted the more marketable name, but really the team is much closer to Ron's than Bruce's.

Why isn't it McLaren? Just because Ron took over and Teddy was bought out?

[JRizzle86]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

No such thing as the English Anthem, it's called the British Anthem.

McLaren has been British since day 0.

[August]

Good post. A lot of people don't realize that when McLaren were sponsored by Marlboro, the florescent red areas on the car were not the Marlboro logo, they were in fact the red chevrons from the old logo posted above.

And the chevrons in the old logo were from the Marlboro logo. I hadn't thought that before.

Anyway, obviously the nationality has started to play a bigger role just recently, previously the factory's location determined nationality. Benetton were British 'til mid-90s. I wonder what was the first time a team had different nationality than its factory's location, except for Ferrari's NART.

Edited by August, 10 February 2012 - 17:54.

[Fastcake]

The first "McLaren" (a sports car originally built by Roger Penske on a Cooper F1 chassis and previously known as the Xerex Special) was painted in what was described as "garden gate green" - the nearest they could find to BRG on a Sunday! Unlike Brabham, whose cars usually raced in Australian green and gold, I don't think Bruce was too bothered about national labels, although there is a nod to his homeland in that the predominantly white M2B of 1966 and the red M5A of 1967 did have a black central stripe. "McLaren orange" was adopted in 1968.

Absolutely. It goes back to the very earliest days, when Grand Prix racing was a matter of national pride - especially for the French, for whom it would gradually become a matter of national humiliation ;)

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing. You certainly wouldn't find even HRT running out pre-race to buy a can of paint! Alas I'm too young to remember anything before the 90s, but always like to hear the stories

[jj2728]

Relevant question - when did team nationalities become relevant at grand prix, i.e. playing team anthem during podium ceremony's? Maybe this was after 1970 or 1981?

National anthems were played as early as the 1930s.

[IceSkyrim]

The name is deceiving too.

McLaren

Should be a Scottish team

[Bloggsworth]

Probably when everything moved to the UK and they started playing the UK national anthem for victories.. Plus having at least 1 British driver in recent years has done a lot to cement that opinion..

McLaren was never based anywhere other than the UK.

[Bloggsworth]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the English anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

Even as New Zealanders, in the 60s they may still have had God Save the Queen as their national anthem...

[maverick69]

That's a shame, so on their first win they had to sit through the British* anthem?

Where are the resources on team registrations that you know this from?

But definitely believable as McLaren was living in UK at the time he founded the team.

Yeah. Imagine basically everyone apart from the owner having to sit through their own national anthem after seeing their car take its first win?!

That would be like making them sit through the Austrian national anthem for example.........



*Changed for obvious reasons.

[metz]

Funny thing that nationalistic stuff.
Ever since McLaren formed the relationship with Mercedes, the German media always refered to McLaren as the German team.
That only changed in 2010 when MGP was born.

[Vitesse2]

The name is deceiving too.

McLaren

Should be a Scottish team

If it was MacLaren (like the baby buggies) then you'd be right. But a "Mc" prefix usually indicates Irish origins.

Even as New Zealanders, in the 60s they may still have had God Save the Queen as their national anthem...

Actually, the Kiwis are rather greedy as they have two anthems! "God Save the Queen" has equal status with "God Defend New Zealand", which was first adopted in as the "national hymn" in 1940, as part of the Centennial celebrations. It was first used in international sport in the 1950 Commonwealth Games, but not until 1972 at the Olympics.

[Gilles12]

I'm just wondering when McLaren became known as a British team...

Probably around the same time they started using Ford engines, then those from Porsche, Honda, Ford, Peugeot, and then Mercedes

[Linus27]

My understanding is when Ron bought the remaining rights to McLaren from Betty McLaren, she insisted that the Kiwi would remain always in honour of Bruce who had the Kiwi on his steering wheel. Ron agreed to do this and the McLaren logo is a stylised kiwi bird.

[Bloggsworth]

If it was MacLaren (like the baby buggies) then you'd be right. But a "Mc" prefix usually indicates Irish origins.

Er - Don't try telling my Scottish genealogist wife that! Mac and Mc are both used by Scots, Mac is, as far as I know, never used by the Irish - Both are Gaelic. McLaren is a Hebridean name and has been also been spelled MacLaren, MacLaron and MacLauren, there was no regularised spelling as the ability to write was pretty rare in the 12th Century...

[IceSkyrim]

In 1964 and 1965 McLaren were based in New Malden, then Feltham before settling on premises in Colnbrook.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren

[TallyHo]

No such thing as the English Anthem, it's called the British Anthem.

McLaren has been British since day 0.

God save the Queen is an English anthem

[Kop Alonso]

So does the OP consider West Surrey Racing ( the BTCC Team that has created many F3 champions including Senna) to be a New Zealand Team or a British one ?

[smitten]

God save the Queen is an English anthem ;)

Except is isn't because it post-dates the Acts of Union and England has no national-anthem.

[TallyHo]

Except is isn't because it post-dates the Acts of Union and England has no national-anthem.

Yes we like to tell the jocks and the taffs that god save the Queen is a British anthem, but we all know the truth . Come the 17th of March at Twickenham this Englishman will be singing his heart out....swing low.

[Con1]

Except is isn't because it post-dates the Acts of Union and England has no national-anthem.

True but hard to believe given the verse with "rebellious Scots to crush". As Billy Connolly says, "Oh you bloody well think so?"

As for "Mc" being Irish...emm I think not Then again, I'm Scottish and have an Irish name so what do I know?

[rabbitleader]

Except is isn't because it post-dates the Acts of Union and England has no national-anthem.

Proud to say that McLaren is 100% English in the same way that Ferrari is 100% Italian.......

'God Save the Queen' is the official English national anthem and British national anthem.....one of many reasons why England needs to ditch it.... to regain its own national identity instead of being labelled British.

Edited by rabbitleader, 10 February 2012 - 21:28.

[Kop Alonso]

I always remeber watching "The Team" the Fly on the wall doc about McLaren on BBC2 during the 93 season.

There was a piece when they were at Silverstone & Ekrem Sami McLarens head of marketing was saying ; "Why are Williams always seen as a British Team & McLaren are alway seen as some multi national hybrid" so for that race they had Sally Gunnel & Ken Clark as guests to back the 2000 ? Olympic bid & to make the team appear more British .

I think todays McLaren see more British than at any other time , of course having 2 Brish drivers and a British title sponsor helps...

[InSearchOfThe]

Proud to say that McLaren is 100% English in the same way that Ferrari is 100% Italian.......

'God Save the Queen' is the official English national anthem and British national anthem.....one of many reasons why England needs to ditch it.... to regain its own national identity instead of being labelled British.

Does that include the percentage of Middle Eastern backing in both teams ?

[rabbitleader]

Does that include the percentage of Middle Eastern backing in both teams ?

On the basis of share ownership, most of the globe would be classed as Chinese.

[InSearchOfThe]

On the basis of share ownership, most of the globe would be classed as Chinese.

Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding- Kingdom of Bahrain ows 50% of Mclaren.
Mubadala Development Company-Abu Dhabi owns 5% of Ferrari.
So neither is 100% English or Italian!
As far as your Chinese reference goes you've lost me.

[bogi]

Ron's McLaren is still McLaren

Edited by bogi, 10 February 2012 - 22:39.

[TallyHo]

Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding- Kingdom of Bahrain ows 50% of Mclaren.
Mubadala Development Company-Abu Dhabi owns 5% of Ferrari.
So neither is 100% English or Italian!
As far as your Chinese reference goes you've lost me.

Stop being pedantic, you know what he means. Just because some Bahrain company pays McLarens bills, doesn't take away from the fact that the beating heart of Mclaren is British, also the same will always be true of Ferarri, no matter how much stake is sold to foriegn investors.

[KoezhVukotic]

Stop being pedantic, you know what he means. Just because some Bahrain company pays McLarens bills, doesn't take away from the fact that the beating heart of Mclaren is British, also the same will always be true of Ferarri, no matter how much stake is sold to foriegn investors.

Good point. Just like Red Bull Racing have been British since 1988

[smitten]

Yes we like to tell the jocks and the taffs that god save the Queen is a British anthem, but we all know the truth ;). Come the 17th of March at Twickenham this Englishman will be singing his heart out....swing low.

It always amuses me that the Sassenachs have adopted a negro freedom song....

'God Save the Queen' is the official English national anthem

except it isn't. None of the home nations have a national anthem.

[dgsg]

When they started to leak oil? Sorry, just had a flashback to high school in the 60s.

[TallyHo]

It always amuses me that the Sassenachs have adopted a negro freedom song.....



except it isn't. None of the home nations have a national anthem.

Come the 17th March England face Ireland at Twickenham 24 years after the Legend that is Chris Oti took England on to beat Ireland, Swing Low is in Honour of him.


Not officially anyway, but the home nations all have their own little ditties, and ours is God save the Queen

Edited by TallyHo, 11 February 2012 - 00:21.

[InSearchOfThe]

Stop being pedantic, you know what he means. Just because some Bahrain company pays McLarens bills, doesn't take away from the fact that the beating heart of Mclaren is British, also the same will always be true of Ferarri, no matter how much stake is sold to foriegn investors.

Their hearts might be in England and Italy, but [50%-McL 5% Fer] the money's heading east.

[Coops3]

Their hearts might be in England and Italy, but [50%-McL 5% Fer] the money's heading east.

It doesn't matter who owns the shares in my opinion. Man City football club is owned by a United Arab Emirati, but it goes without saying that the team is and always will be an English team.

Edited by Coops3, 11 February 2012 - 01:24.